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Harman, the REAL story

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by webbie, Jul 21, 2008.

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  1. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Ironically the last quarterly statement shows a big drop in the hearth division's sales due to the decline in new home construction. But they hope to make up some of these losses via the growing alternative energy sector aka multi-fuel stoves.

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  2. tkirk22

    tkirk22 New Member

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    Ding Ding. We have a winner.

    /fixed a truck in front of a Holiday Inn Express last night.
  3. arthurlange

    arthurlange New Member

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    Why may I ask is there such a big uprising about ONE brand of stove? Personally i think ALL ...and i mean ALL the dealers that are hurting and have to give money back, saw the green and the $$$$$ UP FRONT and didnt think properly about all the surroundings going on. I HEAR ALOT OF "CORPORATE GREED" being the factor in this problem at harman(HHT).. HAS ANYONE THOUGHT OF "DEALER GREED?". What i mean by that is, they HAD to know they werent the only dealers selling stove upon stove upon stove, NO MATTER WHAT BRAND. And in my personal opinion, I think taking deposits that can come back and haunt you on product that (especially at this time) you have no idea of when you are getting is a bit of bad buisness.
  4. cimbo190

    cimbo190 New Member

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    Right on.
  5. Downeaster

    Downeaster New Member

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    Since everyone is throwing in their assumptions, I might as well give you mine. I worked in the boatbuilding industry for more years than I care to think about. It is very common for one company to buy out the competition, finish filling orders that have been taken and then destroy the molds essentially removing the competition. This situation kinda looks the same, except for the filling orders part. I will add, that I too was burned by Harman. I went to my dealer and bought a pellet stove that will be delivered the first of August, and will be installed in my home in late August.
  6. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    You mean the one big brand of pellet stove that went bust last year and then was bought out by a large company? Obviously, they have something to prove! As to dealer greed, the dealers have confirmation that they were getting their orders. It is not up to a dealer to consider that a manufacturer will mislead them......

    It is a pretty big deal in this industry when thousands of stove orders....already sold to dealers and customers....are not fulfilled. In fact, I don't think it has happened in almost 30 years!

    So that is the big deal.
  7. Turbozcs2003

    Turbozcs2003 New Member

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    It is only bad business if they dont refund their customers money.

    I do agree about people going overboard about corporate greed yadayadayada on here without hearing the outcome going forward. To many rumours. Worst case people wait for a stove or request their money back. Life is too short to worry about a stove.
  8. slls

    slls Minister of Fire

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    I keep thinking about that huge new warehouse to store stoves. They have to be coming from China, seeing that nothing seems to be going on at Harmon factory.
  9. ugenetoo

    ugenetoo New Member

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    it hasnt happened yet. its still mid-july and all i read about is someone whipping up the peanut gallery about harmon not honoring their committments. at least allow their allotted time frame to expire before dissing them.
    if there are concerns about stove availability, go to another manufacturer. im sure someone will treat you right!
  10. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Lots of folks who thought they were going to get stoves this summer and fall - are not......

    That is the crux of the story. It is probably hitting Quad and Harman harder because they are popular brands and sold nationally...and when it comes to the Harman situation, some bad decisions were made (or maybe they are good for the long run).

    Heck, my info is usually WORSE than what comes from the dealers and consumers here. My point is this - up until this week I, along with most people and dealers, assumed that Quad/Harman would be able to turn up the production lines to meet demand. Now the jury is in - they will not! I suppose that is a good position to be in - better than having too many stoves in the warehouse.

    At this point we will sit back and watch the reports come in - and likely we will see more news articles. Hopefully, Quad and Harman will hire a PR firm that knows how to inform the customer and the public of what is going on.
  11. nhdblfan

    nhdblfan Member

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    " I, along with most people and dealers, assumed that Quad/Harman would be able to turn up the production lines to meet demand. Now the jury is in - they will not!"

    not being able to turn up production is one thing but it seems,from the reports, they can't even do a small fraction of previous years production.

    Far from "whipping up the peanut gallery",there are lots of customers who left a deposit on a Harman pellet stove early this summer and now have to come up with another way to heat their home this winter.For many that means trying to find additional funds that are just not availble for fuel oil prebuys.Waiting for the "alloted time frame" will leave many more out in the cold.The time to find out why and what Harman is going to do is NOW.
  12. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Remember, they produced very few stoves last year - 2006-2007!

    I'm pretty sure they will produce more than last year. But, yes, the whole point of this conversation is to protect people who may have deposits or paid in full stoves.....or be thinking of placing one.

    The good news, if you can call it that, is that as of now I think the factories (quad/harman) are giving realistic lead times. We have Quad customers reporting installs for Jan/Feb. That does not mean that a lot of stoves will not go out to dealers before that....just that others are in line.
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Just heard that Travis (Lopi Avalon) is sold out of pellet stoves until 2009 also......
  14. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I need to stop in at the local stove store. Their brands are Harman, Lopi and Hearthstone.

    Of course it doesn't get cold around here so it won't make much difference.

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  15. tinkabranc

    tinkabranc Minister of Fire

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    A friend of mine has a small family shop and they sell Travis stoves. He told me this weekend that
    he had to stopped taking orders on his pellet stoves for a while because they are so backed up
    with orders. They do not normally outsource their installation services but may be forced to this year.

    people are panicking.
  16. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Hey Craig. Ya gotta spare room to rent out starting in December? I think I see a land office business in servicing pellet stoves popping up around those parts.

    Be kinda like the "storm troopers" that drop in and set up body shops in tents after major hail storms.

    "Alternative Heating Services"
    "We Didn't Make It. We Just Make It Work"
  17. ScubaSteve

    ScubaSteve Member

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    Here is what I can add to the mix via insider information from sources in the HHT family. very limited production has happened sense the buyout on Harman product. They have sold out of most stocked inventory. HHT four years ago went to a "make on order" system. Just like back in the last few years of Harman when times were good they are waiting on parts from over seas. They have stopped taking and canceled some new dealers. HHT a few years back had the same issues with there Quad line and tried to distribute product evenly to all areas but I can tell you 1st hand certain dealers will get special treatment (we did). Anyone remember how great it was to work with Heatilator before Heat N Glo and Quadrafire came on board? The problem is they put the wrong people in charge of things instead of Heatilator people they went with Heat n Glo / Quad people. In short they purchased market share when they purchased Harman and like other purchases they have made, it has backfired on them ( does Eddy George in the chicago area ring a bell?)All they got out of that deal was a empty warehouse and no market share.Good thing the stockholders are blind to all this as they hide all this in the reports.They only reason they looked good last quarter was the 50 million dollar loan they took out to cover dividents and get it while they still could. There operation profit for the Hearth segment fell again from 9.7 % to 1.6 % you cant blame that on builder business. Plain and simple they are a sinking ship blinding the stockholders with the "we are positioning our self for the future". Sorry but the future is not good as that make it seem.
  18. mlwschultz

    mlwschultz New Member

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    What does all of this mean for those us has that have just bought a Harman stove (that's been delivered & installed by the dealer)? The dealer just delivered 3 more tons of pellets Friday afternoon & said they are sold out of stoves for the year.
  19. gw2kpro

    gw2kpro New Member

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    Just like in any industry, if your dealer goes belly-up, best of luck getting service from them because they're no longer an entity. If the parent company goes belly-up, there's no more warranty, your recourse will have the words "class action" associated with them and will take years to get your $100 settlement.

    This is one of the reasons that I bought my stoves for the absolute rock bottom deal I could find them online, I contracted one install and the other I'm doing myself. I have taken them both down and understand well how they work, and could do most repair work myself. I wasn't going to pay $1200-1500 more per stove to have the "peace of mind" of the local dealer (I have the "peace of mind" of having more than $2500 extra in my pocket between the two, which would buy me almost 2 more stoves) , I feel very bad for the people that are going to get hurt by thie Harman deal, there are going to be a lot of dealerships go out of business.
  20. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    My sentiments exactly!
    John
  21. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    As a long term hearth industry member, I have my reservations about all the panic(s) and run-on-the-banks. It's strange, because my job is to promote the business (or my creed, or whatever), but at the same time I tend to side with the customer when it comes to protecting them.

    I hear many stories that make me shudder......as BB says, people making foolish decisions. One neighbor told me that they were spending a lot of money on a fancy pellet stove and extra hopper setup.......they need a big hopper because.....well, because it is two older people that live together - neither can lift a bag of pellets. So they hope someone else or their son can come over and fuel up the stove! Bad decision, IMHO.

    I appreciate the update from the horses mouth (RE: Harman/Quad)..... I heard some similar tales, but tried not to repeat them since I am not on the inside. Sadly, it looks like one more case where the bean-counters and corporate types see stoves as "product" and people as "numbers". I sincerely hope differently, and I know there are some people in the org who do care....but part of me wishes that Dane would have been able to hold on for another year. It seems the small guy doesn't have much chance these days!
  22. newf lover

    newf lover Minister of Fire

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    I plan on calling my dealer tomorrow and hopefully will get some answers on getting a stove in a reasonable time or getting my money back. While I wish I was as handy, or my husband was as handy as some people on this board, we are mechanical morons. I don't feel I have a choice but to go with a local dealer who I hope will be in business when I need them. One reason I picked a Harman was because it seems to be (or had been) pretty reliable. If this falls through, you can bet I won't be buying a Harman or Quad, and I'll probably wait to shop until Feb./March and hope for a mild winter. I will also add to my research the financial condition of the company and if there is any chance of an acquisition in the near future. It shouldn't be this complicated to buy a damn stove. Those 3 tons of pellets sure look pretty in my basement.
  23. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    The ironic thing about this last year is that here we are with the market that all stove makers and dealers have to have been praying for every since 1980. About the time it arrives a heck of a lot of production capacity has been sitting idle, people layed off, makers in financial trouble and on and on and on. VC and Harman represented a big chunk of yearly stove production. And I am betting VC ain't getting them out the door any faster than Harman is right now. I have worked for four companies that were taken over. I can assure you that there ain't sqat happening productivity wise at either one right now. New management coming through the door, people wondering if they still have jobs. The turmoil is mind boggling.
  24. tonto

    tonto New Member

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    newf lover
    i was at deans stove and spa in southington sunday and they had 6 lopi leydens in stock,thats according to the sales rep. not sure where that stands today,but just wanted to mention that just in case you were still looking.also called a place in guilford who had a p61A 1 left but refused to sell to me because i lived too far from them.called them back today and it was sold.
  25. globewyre

    globewyre Member

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    A harman dealer called me today and said they would have a p68 by october to early november. I left a deposite for one. This is the same dealer that was pushing harman DVC earlier in the summer. The reason for the call is that Harman put a hold on coal stove to make more pellets. I would not get a coal stove till December or even January. The sale person said they were allocated a certain number of pellets stove for the rest of the year. I hope he is right and not giving a sales pitch. I am also considering quadra fire another dealer has in stock. I have to wait til they survey my house before they wll take an order. That will happen later this month.
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