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Limit of stove top temperature on NC30

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by mywaynow, Jan 8, 2012.

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  1. mywaynow

    mywaynow Minister of Fire

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    Stove at 625 flue 525. Damped primary full again and same reaction on secodary burn. Opened it back up to 35%. Seeing white smoke out of the stack, not much but smoke all the same. Thought that should not happen with the new stove. Don't think it's steam because it stays up and does not dissapate for 100 feet.

    Pretty sure the next thing to contemplate will be how long to leave the 30 after the load before I shovel it clean and disconnect it.

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  2. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    How big are the splits you're tossing in? I have a neighbor who runs an old Defiant and he tosses in stuff I would never dream of burning in mine, he'll fill it with three splits/rounds. Try splitting some 3x3 or 3x4 pieces and giving it a go. The chimney sounds perfect but maybe it's not drawing hard enough to keep the secondaries pulling?? It's a 6" class A correct? Was this load n/s or e/w, my Lopi when I had it never burned as good for me e/w as it did n/s.
  3. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    So you are going to throw the baby out with the bath water? Something aint right, the smoking thing is interesting, kinda like the secondaries are not doing their job.
  4. mywaynow

    mywaynow Minister of Fire

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    All stove pipe outside is 6 inch double wall insulated. One thing that is a big difference between the Defiant burns and the 30 burns is the velocity of the exhaust. It creeps out of the stack on the 30, but flowed very freely when the Defiant was burning. I did not have big smoke issues when I burned the D, mostly I believe because the wood was dry and I burned it hot. I have been contemplating the theory my splits are too big. The 2 I put either side of the coals this morning were 6x6x8. I just checked the stove and the temps were down to 500 on the top. I dug around the pile and uprooted one of those splits and placed it in the middle. Ignition a plenty and temps will come up. Still, seems way to high maintenance to keep the house warm. 18 degrees and still outside today. I don't like wasting time and/or money and moving this stove off the active list after just buying it is going to leave a sour taste. A cold house is worse though. I bought new single wall for this install so I have the old cut to length for the Defiant. It may be a realistic approach to use the Defiant in Jan/Feb and the 30 other times.
  5. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I don't think this is the wood, or split size. I think it is draft. Without a doubt, the 30NC is going to need stronger draft than the Defiant. And the Defiant is an 8" flue vs 6" for the 30NC which may be coming into play here.

    What's the flue setup, from stove to cap, including elbows, cleanouts, pipe sizes, etc.
  6. sebring

    sebring Member

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    Sell it and use what works to keep the house warm. Life is too short.

    In the mean time. Cut thoes splits smaller. I find that when I load the stove, I wont load the middle much but the sides I will load up. That leaves a path for the flames to go up to the secondary burn tubes right in front of the doghouse.
  7. rdust

    rdust Minister of Fire

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    This is also where my thinking was/is. I asked about the chimney set up since my neighbors defiant runs on an 8" flue and I think that would cause a lazy draft on a 30 causing a lack of pull for the secondaries.

    Here is a quote from the first page
  8. sebring

    sebring Member

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    If you can open the door without smoke coming out, your draft should be good enough.
  9. mywaynow

    mywaynow Minister of Fire

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    My pipe is 6 inch. The Defiant requires 8 in if you desire to burn with the double doors open and screen in place; like a fireplace setup. I have never had smoke come back in either stove, unless I hastily opened the door. Here is the exact specs:

    40 inches single wall straight up from stovetop to 90 elbow, 16 inches single wall horizontal to insulated wall thimble, insulated cleanout T then 22 ft straight up to cap with cinder grill.

    I have been doing sheet rock work following the flood issues in the fall. When the Defiant was running and I was sanding sheetrock, the dust would tunnel toward the bottom of the stove from 6 feet away. I could make the Defiant sound like a oil burner running by creating air paths with flat splits if the baffle was rolled to reburn state. This again is why I posted the difference in exhaust velocity between the stoves.
  10. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Yes, I remember that sound from running a Vigilant. I have gotten the T6 to rumble sort of, unintentionally. But that is more the roar of air feeding a fire that I forgot to turn down.

    Your setup doesn't sound bad. All I can suggest to improve it would be first to try and increase the horizontal pitch of the connector if possible. Even a 1/4" can help sometimes. You might want to try a pair of 45's with a short connector and eliminate the horiz. section all together. A slight increase in draft can sometimes make a nice difference if the system is on the threshold.
  11. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Quit trying to close the air all the way on that dang stove. Counting the 90 degree turns and horizontal pipe you have the approximate EVL (equivalent venting length) of 15 to 16 feet. What the stove was built for and tested with. Burn down the coals to where you have enough to make a coal bed six to nine inches front to back and all the way across the front of the stove. Then load the firebox N/S. Open the air all the way and get it burning well and close the air down 1/3 at a stove top temp on the front of the step top of 400. At 550 close it another third and leave it alone. Get your heat from the flames and forget about that &*^% secondaries BS. The stove was not designed to bake wood, it was designed to BURN wood.

    Build a fire in it and get over what every old stove burner falls for. They all believe that a lot of flame is wasting wood. In an EPA stove it isn't. It is making heat.
  12. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    If i were you i would forget about the fan. That fan will cool your stove too much for a clean burn,i only use a fan when my stove is getting too hot say 750 and up. My 30 seems to like hot temps before it burns all the smoke. The cooler the stove the more smoke i get. It seems the stove may be a little too small for your heat load and insulation level in the dead of winter.
    That idea you had about using it in the shoulder season may be where you will end up.
  13. mywaynow

    mywaynow Minister of Fire

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    All the messing around and screw-it and load-it again attitude has gotten the house up to 70 today. Loaded 3 times since 730 am though to the tune of 14 pieces of wood. Just loaded 6 of those 14 on a thick bed of coals. Top is 650 down from 700 15 minutes ago. Air set 35%. BB- How is the EVL value of my setup at 15-16 feet? Not familiar with that rating system.
  14. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    The EVL is calculated using the actual vertical height of the chimney components and deducting five feet or so for each 90 degree turn. Nothing precise about it. It is borrowed from the fluid dynamics world but it gets close. The stoves are built and tested with a straight chimney that measures 15' from the floor the stove sits on to the cap. So that is what the stove is tuned for.
  15. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    By pulling the coals forward and burning a N/S load with just the front end of the splits on the coals you burn down the original coal bed while creating a new one at the end of the burn. If you just keep throwing splits on top of the coal you end up with a stove full of coals to burn off with a three hundred degree stove for hours and hours.
  16. sebring

    sebring Member

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    My goal with the 30 is to burn the wood as efficiently as possible and as long as possible. And if thats good enough to keep the house at 70 then great, but most of the cold days its close, but not close enough, so I fire up a second stove. I dont have a temperature gauge. I just look through the front glass and see if its burning good. If its smoldering I either give it a little more air, or put on some gloves and reposition a few pieces of wood so the fire can burn up to the burn tubes.
  17. mywaynow

    mywaynow Minister of Fire

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    So after a Sunday of messing and babysitting the stove, the house stayed at 70/71. Problem is the consumption was 21 logs. Not much of an advantage to where I was with the Defiant. This morning the house was 63; oil burner was summoned. I know I am a newby to EPA stoves, but it sure seems to be the case that the stove just can't keep up to the needs here. If my quick math is correct, I am trying to heat 2100 sq ft. The 30 is rated to 2200 sq ft. How those numbers are obtained is likely the root of the conflict. I am guessing that 2200 is an optimal situation; stove in the center of the house, perfect sealed windows/doors with high R-value insulation, no opening of doors, etc, etc. Not the real life case here. I guess I should have seen that coming. I like the stove, the construction, the design, the operation. It is just a knife at a gun fight. First warm day this week she is going to the sidelines until the shoulder season starts. Glad I left the Defiant on the handtruck.
  18. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    I can feel your pain, I guess no point in fighting it, a little song comes to mind.
    KooAid KoolAid tastes great
    KoolAid KoolAid cant wait
  19. wkpoor

    wkpoor Minister of Fire

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    I think alot of yellow flames is. Secondary flames no.
  20. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    If the stove is hot the stove is hot not matter what the flames look like.
  21. wkpoor

    wkpoor Minister of Fire

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    I feel your pain MYWAYNOW, the road to EPA heat can be a rough one. Obviously everyone's heating needs vary greatly in an average situation 2000+sqft is alot for any one stove to heat. Ad in heat loss variables and I can see where you are at. I think if we were to visit some of the homes where fantastic results are posted you might see drastically different heating needs in those places. One easy way to tell how much heat a dwelling requires is to just observe how much time your furnace runs to heat your space. I have a 100,000BTU furnace and on cold windy days its runs nearly constantly to keep up. No one stove can match that.
  22. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Although i like my Englander 30s i also have a harman Tl-300. BOTH are rated at 75000 BTUs max. Both are EPA stoves but with different reburn tech. For the big jobs i would choose the Harman hands down over the 30 for several reasons. Its bigger ,heavier, i can use a fan without cooling it down much, i can get more wood in it and the high heat output is maintained especially in the later stages of the burn. Seems to burn very hot even when the wood is mostly coals. I like the englander for its simplicity,easy operation,lighter weight when moving it,and its price which is about a third of what i paid for the harman. Both great stoves for different reasons.
  23. oldspark

    oldspark Guest

    It's posts like yours that can be the most helpful, direct comparisions, do they have the same type of chimney.
  24. Seasoned Oak

    Seasoned Oak Minister of Fire

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    Oldspark
    All the stoves i run are on old masonry chimneys from 20 -25 ft tall. Iv had the Harman in 2 different locations as well as the 30s .That said OS your right about the chimney ,it makes all the difference in how the stove behaves.My son has a 30 on a brand new tall chimney and he is always trying to keep it from getting too hot. Mine on the other hand are on old large diameter chimneys with much less draft and i dont see those 800-900 degree stove tops like my son gets.
  25. Huntindog1

    Huntindog1 Minister of Fire

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    The NC-30 is too big a stove to have those kinds of problems. There has got to be something wrong here.
    There are people on here with alot less stove and gets better results.
    I think your burning up all your wood trying to get alot of heat out of the stove. 21 logs dang!
    The key is once you get the heat built up in the stove it should stay hot enough to maintain alot of heat over a long period of time with a 3.5 Cubic foot fire box.

    I really think you ought to install that manual pipe damper, Your descriptions make me feel like you have too much draw. Its like your burning with the door cracked open , you get the flames but not good heat build up that can be sustained. These stoves are all about controlled air in a very high heat environment, thats why the secondaries go out when you close the door as the heat isnt built up enough to sustain the operation. you have to get the heat built up quick then start limiting the air intake so as your not letting all your heat up the chimney. I dont know that you can judge how much heat is going up your chimeny by the flue pipe temp as it maybe more of a function of flue gas velocity and residual time. Faster velocity with less residual time may mean our pipe temp may not reflect whats actually going on. 6" pipe has a smaller volume of gases but faster velocity than an 8". So keep that in mind that you still may have too much draw as your main problem. So try the damper as you can always keep it wide open if you dont want to use it later on.
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