magnum model 02 inserts... best zero clearance option out there?

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MountainStoveGuy said:
You can modify the smoke shelf, but the width is not proportional to the hight. Is the inside really 40" x 21"? not that it matters, i think either of the inserts posted here will fit. I dont think you have the clearances for the o2, but the other one seems ok.

from what the previous poster posted with the specs of what is required for the 02, i should fit, unless you mean fitting the connection for the pipe and liner?
all of the ZC inserts that have been posted look good cosmetically, i am going to go with whichever will provide the most heat and has the longest burn time... IE larger cubic foot capacity for wood...
the only thing that stinks is that the 02 unit's dealer did not even know about that particular model, which makes me leery of having them do the install, i suppose since this is a ZC install i could do it myself...
 
Can you take some pics up closer to the fireplace and with better light? Or if you have already posted them and I missed it point me to them.
 
par0thead151 said:
MountainStoveGuy said:
You can modify the smoke shelf, but the width is not proportional to the hight. Is the inside really 40" x 21"? not that it matters, i think either of the inserts posted here will fit. I dont think you have the clearances for the o2, but the other one seems ok.

from what the previous poster posted with the specs of what is required for the 02, i should fit, unless you mean fitting the connection for the pipe and liner?
all of the ZC inserts that have been posted look good cosmetically, i am going to go with whichever will provide the most heat and has the longest burn time... IE larger cubic foot capacity for wood...
the only thing that stinks is that the 02 unit's dealer did not even know about that particular model, which makes me leery of having them do the install, i suppose since this is a ZC install i could do it myself...

Yes it does fit. There is more to it then just fitting. Like a wood stove, inserts have clearances to combustibles. They have top clearances, side clearances, and heart protection clearances sometimes with a specific R value for the hearth. What i am saying, is that you have protruding trim on the edges of your fireplace. That trim is most likely combustible. The O2 requires 24" from either edge of the insert to that trim. The insert also requires 18" from the front of the glass of non combustibles. Make sure this works, or you will not pass inspection.

edit: clarify what the `12" side clearance is. I dont see the whole brochure.
 
DSCN5288.jpg

no photos of the firebox with the ZC stuff placed back in it though... i will take some tonight
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
par0thead151 said:
MountainStoveGuy said:
You can modify the smoke shelf, but the width is not proportional to the hight. Is the inside really 40" x 21"? not that it matters, i think either of the inserts posted here will fit. I dont think you have the clearances for the o2, but the other one seems ok.

from what the previous poster posted with the specs of what is required for the 02, i should fit, unless you mean fitting the connection for the pipe and liner?
all of the ZC inserts that have been posted look good cosmetically, i am going to go with whichever will provide the most heat and has the longest burn time... IE larger cubic foot capacity for wood...
the only thing that stinks is that the 02 unit's dealer did not even know about that particular model, which makes me leery of having them do the install, i suppose since this is a ZC install i could do it myself...

Yes it does fit. There is more to it then just fitting. Like a wood stove, inserts have clearances to combustibles. They have top clearances, side clearances, and heart protection clearances sometimes with a specific R value for the hearth. What i am saying, is that you have protruding trim on the edges of your fireplace. That trim is most likely combustible. The O2 requires 24" from either edge of the insert to that trim. The insert also requires 18" from the front of the glass of non combustibles. Make sure this works, or you will not pass inspection.

edit: clarify what the `12" side clearance is. I dont see the whole brochure.

thank you for the clarity. i will measure everything out tonight and make sure it passes the minimum requirements
 
Parrot, i guarantee we will get you squared away no matter how incompetent you dealer is. :)
 
Somebody tell me that isn't aluminum I am looking at in that pic.
 
BrotherBart said:
Somebody tell me that isn't aluminum I am looking at in that pic.

I dont think so BB. what makes you think it is? Looks like a regular steel box to me...
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
BrotherBart said:
Somebody tell me that isn't aluminum I am looking at in that pic.

I dont think so BB. what makes you think it is? Looks like a regular steel box to me...

Ever seen a wood burning fireplace made of that thin of a gauge metal and held together with sheet metal screws before MSG. I got a few bucks that says this is a decorative gas fireplace. Previously he said that the Majestic was removed by the prior homeowner and replaced with a gas fireplace.
 
I think this has been the most educational thread I've read on there. I am still baffled at the dichotomy of no ZC fireplace being approved for an insert, yet there are ZC approved inserts. How in hell is that possible?! The mind reels. I feel dizzy. It looks like it's almost safest to say that anyone with a ZC fireplace should just install a free standing stove for maximum heat AND peace of mind. Of course I could be interpreting all of this wrong...?
 
No, you interpreted this absolutely correct. Its about market share and liability. ZC manufactures dont want the liability, stove manufactures want to make a sale. The zc fireplace company is out of the sales loop once there product is installed, so they are not going to test for them to be used with inserts. ZC fireplaces are the Achilles heal of this industry. More fires are caused by them then any other product. This is why the majority of the codes in NFPA211 are directed to ZC boxes.
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
No, you interpreted this absolutely correct. Its about market share and liability. ZC manufactures dont want the liability, stove manufactures want to make a sale. The zc fireplace company is out of the sales loop once there product is installed, so they are not going to test for them to be used with inserts. ZC fireplaces are the Achilles heal of this industry. More fires are caused by them then any other product. This is why the majority of the codes in NFPA211 are directed to ZC boxes.

ooh i agree 100% with that. i hate the whole ZC fireplace idea. either go big or go home is how i think... probably why i started out running a marathon not a 5K like most everyone else, or doing a half ironman instead of a sprint... :)
so long as i abide by the insert manufacturers guidelines i should be safe though, correct?
as far as the prior question was about the majestic being replaced with a gas insert, that is correct, however from what i have gathered from everyone, they just put the gas line into the original wood burning setup?
i hope i am not back to confusing myself again.
 
Parrot, i should have quoted pagey, thats who that post was directed too. Im not going to commit that its safe to do what you want, your insert manufacture says it is, so you have someone to go back to if it isnt. I think people are still confused to exactly what you have. I still believe you have a ZC box, not a gas ZC fireplace.
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
Parrot, i should have quoted pagey, thats who that post was directed too. Im not going to commit that its safe to do what you want, your insert manufacture says it is, so you have someone to go back to if it isnt. I think people are still confused to exactly what you have. I still believe you have a ZC box, not a gas ZC fireplace.

what can i do to confirm that i have a ZC box, not a ZC gas fireplace?
i want to make sure of this before i invest the capitol in the insert and whatnot.
 
This is interesting. I see now that there are two uses and definitions of "Zero Clearance" used in the field. From http://www.aer-online.com/aerpage.phtml?page=ar-vent1

Quote: "What specifically does Zero Clearance mean? The Zero Clearance rating refers to the amount of airspace between the chimney liner and the inside of the masonry chimney. It also refers to the airspace between the exterior of a masonry chimney and combustibles. For this reason the listing is sometimes called "Zero - Zero" in the field.

If the chimney liner you are installing carries a full UL 1777 listing to Zero Clearance you can install, within the liner's installation guidelines, with no airspace between it and the inside of the masonry chimney. This also is the case when the chimney has no air space

A liner which carries the full UL 1777 listing can be installed to Zero Clearance within the chimney without insulation so long as the masonry chimney it's installed into meets NFPA 211. Again, if the masonry chimney does not meet the NFPA 211 standard, insulation is required."

Which really has nothing to do with the definition of Zero Clearance when referring to a prefab fireplace. From http://woodlandstoves.com/Faq_Detail.asp?id=917

Quote: "A zero clearance fireplace, whether wood or gas, refers to a manufactured fireplace that you can frame right up to. Think of it as a stove in a box with the purpose of the box being to contain and/or convect the heat into the room while maintaining a cool enough exterior skin temperature that wood framing can placed nearly against it.

What differentiates the various zero clearance wood fireplaces?

There are 3 basic categories: air conditioners, pretty good heaters, and very good heaters. The air conditioners are characterized by pulling more air out of the house than they give back in heat so their net effect on the house as a system is to cool it. Glass doors are usually an option rather than a standard feature and they are not gasketed or sealed, nor should they be closed when the unit is burning. The optional outside air will not provide more than a quarter of the combustion air needs.
The pretty good heaters are a big step up in terms of heating ability. They will generally have sealed, gasketed doors and outside air sufficient to provide all combustion air needs. They are not E.P.A. certified. As exempt units, you cannot control the heat output other than by the fuel load.
The primary difference between the pretty good and really good heaters is that the latter are E.P.A. certified. What that means to you is that you can control the combustion air intake, thereby controlling the heat output and, consequently, the burn time."

Madness!
 
Pagey said:
This is interesting. I see now that there are two uses and definitions of "Zero Clearance" used in the field. From http://www.aer-online.com/aerpage.phtml?page=ar-vent1

Quote: "What specifically does Zero Clearance mean? The Zero Clearance rating refers to the amount of airspace between the chimney liner and the inside of the masonry chimney. It also refers to the airspace between the exterior of a masonry chimney and combustibles. For this reason the listing is sometimes called "Zero - Zero" in the field.

If the chimney liner you are installing carries a full UL 1777 listing to Zero Clearance you can install, within the liner's installation guidelines, with no airspace between it and the inside of the masonry chimney. This also is the case when the chimney has no air space

A liner which carries the full UL 1777 listing can be installed to Zero Clearance within the chimney without insulation so long as the masonry chimney it's installed into meets NFPA 211. Again, if the masonry chimney does not meet the NFPA 211 standard, insulation is required."

Which really has nothing to do with the definition of Zero Clearance when referring to a prefab fireplace. From http://woodlandstoves.com/Faq_Detail.asp?id=917

Quote: "A zero clearance fireplace, whether wood or gas, refers to a manufactured fireplace that you can frame right up to. Think of it as a stove in a box with the purpose of the box being to contain and/or convect the heat into the room while maintaining a cool enough exterior skin temperature that wood framing can placed nearly against it.

What differentiates the various zero clearance wood fireplaces?

There are 3 basic categories: air conditioners, pretty good heaters, and very good heaters. The air conditioners are characterized by pulling more air out of the house than they give back in heat so their net effect on the house as a system is to cool it. Glass doors are usually an option rather than a standard feature and they are not gasketed or sealed, nor should they be closed when the unit is burning. The optional outside air will not provide more than a quarter of the combustion air needs.
The pretty good heaters are a big step up in terms of heating ability. They will generally have sealed, gasketed doors and outside air sufficient to provide all combustion air needs. They are not E.P.A. certified. As exempt units, you cannot control the heat output other than by the fuel load.
The primary difference between the pretty good and really good heaters is that the latter are E.P.A. certified. What that means to you is that you can control the combustion air intake, thereby controlling the heat output and, consequently, the burn time."

Madness!

The first part of the quote is talking about one of the the things we term zero clearance in this industry.. masonry tile chimneys. And, yes, you can easily install liners with insulation to bring them up to 1777. However, you can also install them without insulation if they are built to NFPA 211. Unfortunalty there are so few fireplace chimneys that are built this way, UL1777 states that they all have to be insulated. Crazy huh.
 
Is there even a reliable way to verify a masonry is up to code? Looks to me like you'd have to be able to look inside the structure to see if the air gap between the masonry and the liner is present. Sounds like a good way to damage a system.

In any event, I'm not helping the OP and should hush.
 
Pagey said:
Is there even a reliable way to verify a masonry is up to code? Looks to me like you'd have to be able to look inside the structure to see if the air gap between the masonry and the liner is present. Sounds like a good way to damage a system.

In any event, I'm not helping the OP and should hush.

there really isn't , which is why UL1777 defaults to insulated liners only.
 
underwriters labortory inc. No. AG-648210
model sr42 refer to NER-4837
listed by ICB0.BOCA. XBCCI
install/installer SK8 8"
chimney @, 1 1/2 min. clearance
Cheminee@ 38mm jeu min.
risk or fire damage replace grate width mcp model RSBG36
install only model 42GDK88-DP-BK
Sides 1/2 back 1/2

Side wall to side fireplace opening 22 inches
clearance 2 combustibles
DES Cotes 15mm
DU DOS 13mm

distance to carpet 23.5 inches
distance to dry wall 8 inches
distance to mantell 27 inches
protruded mantel 34 inches
distance of box off ground 8 inches


DSCN5350.jpg

DSCN5352.jpg

DSCN5354.jpg
 
parrot, fantastic post. You have what you need. the 02 wont work with the drywall clearance, 8" is super tight. This is going to be hard. Turns out you have the firplace you need, a good size box, and that damn drywall is going to hose up this project. Pellet stove?
 
MountainStoveGuy said:
parrot, fantastic post. You have what you need. the 02 wont work with the drywall clearance, 8" is super tight. This is going to be hard. Turns out you have the firplace you need, a good size box, and that damn drywall is going to hose up this project. Pellet stove?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
im a fan of the real wood burning. i strongly considered pellet, but i prefer wood as i can cut it for free, haul it for free, and my only annual cost aside from the sunk cost of buying the insert, would be cleaning the chimney and yearly upkeep and replacing worn/damaged parts.

im thinking drywall saw right about now, and re patching the drywall to flush
my fiance hates that drywall arch, so she is on board with remodeling the wall there... would i be ok then?
will the 02 insert work if i remove the protruding drywall?
 
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