Max heat operation.

[Renovation]

The probe, well lets just say that boy is misleading.

pen

Thanks Pen,

Wow, if that means what I think it means, that's kind of eye-poppping.

Do you think this is relevant to the "Tonight, I miss my old stove..(BKK questions) " thread, where guys aren't getting enough heat out of their stoves--because they dial them down to keep their Condor probes from telling them their cat is over heating? (pant, pant, pant)

Just a thought.

here is some suggested reading on that very topic.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/51149/

pen

Many thanks Pen.

I read that thread, and the thread where you exhaustively test and document that current aftermarket Condor probes read too high with great interest. I also posted the results to the current thread where people are complaining they can't get maximum heat out of their Kings without their ACPs reading too high, FWIW.

Thanks for replying.

 

[nodtmf]

Oh hi,

I am a 3 month old Summit owner. I am reading this thread, but having a hard time sorting it out. I am reading it because I want to know what the max temp I should run the stove at. My first problem is where to measure the temp, the Flu is not accessible, as this is an insert. I have seen pictures of putting a magnetic thermometer just above the door, there is enough clearance for the door to close. So that is where mine is. I don't understand the putting it on the stove top as it seems the stop top is a second layer of metal (?) Now the issue I have is I can make the thermometer go to the over heat zone easily, but the inside of the stove looks good, eg no red glowing metal. I have tried two thermometers, both Rudlands. When I use an infrared meter it reads considerably lower, so I don't know which is correct.

Some other notes from this thread.

I can open the door...slowly to avoid a puff but the it works and no smoke in the room. I am at 1100 feet in the Santa Cruz mtns (hills in CA
Chimney is maybe 15~20 feet in length, one bend right after leaving the stove.

I burn oak, seasoned about 1 year, 6 months of that in the hot CA sun. Moisture meter reads around 21%

Any comments would be great.

Thx,
Glen

 

[Jimbob]

lillyrat, i usually do not get any smoke in the room but if I leave the door open when I load it and the load starts to smoke it will come back into the room some, I quit doing it that way so not a problem any more. Interesting that your stove runs like mine, I think the stove runs perfect except for the flue temps and not being able to get the stove top at 700 or so easily. Seems like more draft would make the flue temps worse but I think it wounld get higher stove top temps. After the stove settles in the flue temps are about 100 to 150 lower than stove top which sounds normal, just can not get the higher stove top temps with out the high flue temps.

Sounds like our stoves behave the same. Would be nice to hear from some summit owners and see what kind of stovetops they are getting and what their flue temps are. I don't see how you can get a summit to 650 stovetop without overfiring the flue.

If I stuff the thing full of Poplar onto a good bed of coals and let 'er burn on 1/4 throttle until stovepipe thermo reads 300F, then turn it down to minimum, my temps gradually creep up to:
450-500 Stovepipe
650-750 Stovetop.
I have seen the stovetop go to 850F occasionally, usually when it's VERY cold out and the draft is good.

 

[lillyrat]

I still don't understand why I can't get 700 Degrees on my summit. I can only get 570 and that is running the flue slowly up to 500 (surface) and then backing it down. It would be great if someone could figure out what I am missing and help me get some real heat out of this thing. It burns great as far as secondaries, have good seasoned oak.

 

[oldspark]

I still don't understand why I can't get 700 Degrees on my summit. I can only get 570 and that is running the flue slowly up to 500 (surface) and then backing it down. It would be great if someone could figure out what I am missing and help me get some real heat out of this thing. It burns great as far as secondaries, have good seasoned oak.

Well I hope my problem is the draft and can be fixed, will clean out the stove in the spring to make sure nothing is wrong there, some times I can get close to 700 or so but really slows down at about 600 stove top.
Lillyrat, does it make any difference with the less dense woods, one of my hotter fires was with some elm, even at that mine aint right, have not had the chance to try the extra pipe on the chimney.

 

[Battenkiller]

OS, how can you think you have insufficient draft when you are running flue temps as high as you are? Even a short stack will draw well with 1000º internal gas temperatures. Your cold (natural) draft may not be that great, but once the gases hit temps that high, a strong draft is inevitable with any flue.

 

[oldspark]

OS, how can you think you have insufficient draft when you are running flue temps as high as you are? Even a short stack will draw well with 1000º internal gas temperatures. Your cold (natural) draft may not be that great, but once the gases hit temps that high, a strong draft is inevitable with any flue.

I was hoping you could answer that , I am out of ideas other than something amiss in the stove, it just will not get to the higher temps most summit owners report, lillyrat has the same issues as me it sounds like.

 

[Battenkiller]

OS, how can you think you have insufficient draft when you are running flue temps as high as you are? Even a short stack will draw well with 1000º internal gas temperatures.

I was hoping you could answer that

Oh, great... put me on the spot. :shut:

Sounds like you're getting lots of good advice. I think you are losing lots of heat up the flue. A 7 1/4" pipe has 46% more capacity than a 6" flue has. 1000ºF inside your flue is venting a lot more hot air than a 6" flue at the same temp. That heat has to come from somewhere, and it comes from inside the stove. Even more so than others running a similar stove with a 6" flue, you need to dial the air back to retain that heat where you want it - inside the stove. That, or use a pipe damper.

Theoretically, you should have plenty of draft. An 18' chimney with a mean flue gas temp of 200º should pull close to 0.08" of water. That's about the most your stove will ever need. Even with the internal resistance of the system from the 90º els, you should have a pretty strong draft at only 350º on the pipe. You have to figure out how to keep the heat from getting up and out of the stove is the way I see it. Closing down the primary air won't lessen the strength of the draft, but it will cut way down on the venting capacity of the system, which should help a bunch IMHO.

 

[Jimbob]

OS, how can you think you have insufficient draft when you are running flue temps as high as you are? Even a short stack will draw well with 1000º internal gas temperatures. Your cold (natural) draft may not be that great, but once the gases hit temps that high, a strong draft is inevitable with any flue.

I was hoping you could answer that , I am out of ideas other than something amiss in the stove, it just will not get to the higher temps most summit owners report, lillyrat has the same issues as me it sounds like.

When you are down to a good bed of coals, try re-loading with softwood, like poplar, Spruce, Or Tamarack and turn the control down as low as you can while still keeping it lit. If the flames go out, turn it back up till the fire comes back, then start turning it down again.
Doing that should bring you over 700°F

 

[DonNC]

Im getting pretty good at making the stove hit the 700's. The sahara has a primary air control, but no control over the secondary. 6" double wall flue

I loaded it with a mix this morning but because it is damp, I had to baby it to get it going. Eventually (when the draft was strong enough i guess) it caught good enough that I could keep the door shut and cut the air in half. I cut it in half to keep heat in the box...heating up the environment/wood... Make more wood burn at the same time. thus releasing more heat into the box at the same time. That is why I believe the following happens

Another thing that always amazed me was I can hit 500 stove top on sticks and very small splitts but can not get 700 on a full load.

After ten minutes or so the fire starts going good...the secondary starts and I move the air to 67-75 percent closed. If the fire dies a bit I open it back up.
If the fire stays good though, this is where I leave it and the stove will not stop getting hotter. So i watch it and when it hits 700... the outside double wall in the 300s, I cut it to 87 percent closed. That is where it stays until reload. The stove has been 700 now for 30-60 min

-Make sure you load enough fuel. Not large Fuel, but enough. I put 6 2.5-4" splits and rounds, and two 12" 2x4s (only one was 4" and only at one end)
-Dont give a care how long the fuel lasts. Make it burn hot.
-Keep closing the air as long as it dont affect the strength of the fire too much.
keep ir gun handy

 

[oldspark]

If I keep the air turned down more on reloads the stove top and flue temp seem to both slow down coming up, I have tried every thing (including 2X6 lumber) and it just runs out of gas at 600 or so. Will try some of the new suggestions, I have no soft wood but am trying some silver maple-ash now with a lower setting and both temps are slow but will keep playing.

 

[RRJ22]

Oldspark, I also have a red Summit Classic, with 4 foot of single wall inside, a through the wall kit, and then 12 foot of triple wall SS. I do not have a blower. My results seem a bit different than yours though. My Rutland magnetic thermometer is usually about 6 inches above the stovetop on the single wall pipe. This stove heats the place nicely as long as the flue temp is 400 or above. I took out the trivet and placed the thermometer on the stovetop, and it consistently reads over 100 degrees higher than the flue temps. Right now with a flue temp of 300 on a stove with only coals in it the stovetop is 450, and the primary air is fully closed and has been for an hour.

For max heat I pick out the densest wood from the pile, and then get it hot... ie. the flue temp hits 400-500 before I start to turn it down. Somewhere between 500-650 I will finish turning it down, usually ending up with the primary air open approximately one inch left of fully closed. If the flue temp drops below 450 shortly thereafter I turn it back up, and make sure the flue temp is at least 600 for a few minutes. Yes, I have hit well over 600 flue temp on this stove, and the two feet of pipe closest to the stove is whitened to prove it. However, if I move my thermometer closer to where it goes through the wall, the flue temps have dropped considerably. My SS does not see the high temps I measure inside because the single wall radiates quite a bit of it.

Like you though, I have been surprised at the lack of felt heat compared to my old stove, a US Stove Wonderwood with a sheet metal firebox that ate tons of wood and radiated unbelievable amounts of heat, making the stove room uninhabitable. The Summit is much more comfortable in the stove room, and keeps the rest of the place in the low to mid 70s, unlike the old stove which was a struggle to keep the main living area under 80. My problem isn't the stove though, it is the lack of proper insulation in my 1966 mobile that I am trying to heat. My wood to start the winter wasn't dry enough, and my draft just wasn't quite enough. I added three feet, and the stove drafted dramatically different. I brought two weeks worth of wood inside much like Battenkiller did, and let it dry at least a week before I burnt it. At the beginning of winter I was comfortable with outdoor temps of 20 F and above... today I can keep it 70 or above overnight with outdoor temps around 0 F.

If you are curious, I weighed a few of the pieces I brought in the other day. One was silver maple, the other was mulberry. Both were c/s/s before April 15, 2010 uncovered in the sun. The silver maple lost 4.2 oz and the mulberry lost 3.4 oz., weighed with a postal scale.

 

[DonNC]

If I keep the air turned down more on reloads the stove top and flue temp seem to both slow down coming up, I have tried every thing (including 2X6 lumber) and it just runs out of gas at 600 or so. Will try some of the new suggestions, I have no soft wood but am trying some silver maple-ash now with a lower setting and both temps are slow but will keep playing.

I guess the main ingredient for me is, when I turn the air down... if it affects the fire strength, I turn it back up. At some point the fire takes over and turning it down does not affect it unless I close it all the way.
If I close it all the way I only have secondary. I dont do that except at night. I like to keep a bottom fire going at the same time because it feeds the gases to the secondary..

 

[begreen]

Not familiar with the stove. Is there a boost manifold at the bottom front? Even with the air control closed I would think the bottom fire is getting air from the airwash if nothing else. That's because the air is never completely cut off. EPA stoves bleed a little air in at all times. If the air was all the way off, the fire would smolder and the glass would be black.

You can take best advantage of this by loading the stove N/S so that air can travel front to back between the logs. The amount of air needed to sustain the fire will depend on the wood and the strength of the draft.