New Stove Installed - and I'm not very happy with it

[albertj03]

Something else to consider is your home owners insurance. A lot of insurance companies require that stove be inspected by a professional and all clearances are met. Personally, with 2 kids I wouldn't burn with that setup in my house even with heat shields.

 

[begreen]

With the short chimney and close ceiling clearance, I find myself wondering why wasn't double-wall pipe used for the connector? Was this the installer's decision?

 

[kingston73]

Yes, the installer didn't think double wall was needed and since he was the pro and I'm new to this I went with how recommendation. As for using it with a heat shield, isn't the clearance with that only6 inches from the ceiling?

 

[rdust]

With the short chimney and close ceiling clearance, I find myself wondering why wasn't double-wall pipe used for the connector? Was this the installer's decision?

x2, I was going to suggest the same thing due to the short chimney and clearance issue.

 

[webbie]

Well, the installer got the thimble moved and installed the stove but I'm not very happy with things and won't be using this guy any more. Tell me if I'm being overly critical, and also give me your opinions on what you would do in this situation. I used this guy based on the recommendation from the store we bought the stove from and I couldn't find any reviews of him online good or bad. He's basically a 1 guy company, he's his own boss and manager so there wasn't much I could do as far as calling a company and complaining.

First of all, the clearance from the ceiling to the top of the elbow is only 14 inches, and it's single wall pipe without a heat shield.

Second - the clearance from the back of the stove to the bricks is only 7 inches, the manual says it needs 11 inch clearance to combustibles.

Third, and my biggest issue with the guy - he said the chimney was fine and didn't need cleaning. We've lived here for 2 years now and it hasn't been cleaned since we moved in, so it's been a min. of 3 years since it was cleaned. Based on how long it had been since our furnace was cleaned I highly doubt the former owner had the chimney cleaned the year before we moved in.

What would you do?

Did I miss something? Was the chimney lined? If so, exactly how?

I don't think the stove clearance is much of an issue. The pipe issue can be easily dealt with (shied on ceiling or top of pipe), but my biggest concerns are the through the wall area and the chimney itself.

Based on experience, it is very rare that a through the wall masonry thimble like this...patched in...can possibly meet code. Rather, a special type of thimble has to be used........

The issue is how far back the framing is - behind the brick interior wall - from the sides of the pipe and thimble. This includes the siding, the insulation, and the framing...see:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/passing_a_chimney

You'd need a 32" square of solid masonry from the front to..and including..the chimney.

 

[kingston73]

So basically nothing this guy did was correct? Should I just buy some double wall connections and replace all three pieces myself?

 

[kingston73]

As far as the thimble goes there is a sticker on it that says something about needing a minimum of 2inches of clearance , I will try to take a picture of it tomorrow but I need to go get ready for bed now. Thank you all for the help so far, seems like I managed to puck a pretty bad installer

 

[kingston73]

Ok, took a look at the sticker on the thimble he installed, it is one of these: http://www.northlanddistrib.com/6UT-18-6-x-18-Pipe-Length_p_254.html

From what I could see as he was installing he basically encased the pipe in a solid block of concrete the full depth of the wall to the chimney. It looked like there was a square surround of bricks framing the thimble hole, but definitely not 12 inches per side, more like only 1 or 2 bricks deep.
The chimney is lined with 8x8 clay tiles, the installer didn't think it needed to have a stainless liner.
From what I read in the article you posted, this install is definitely not meeting any of those 3 standards. So now I'm left with an unsafe chimney, and unsafe thimble, and an unusable wood stove.....and I'm out $500. I feel sick to my stomach, and I feel like I got royally screwed.

 

[webbie]

Ask a good installer (here or elsewhere) what the required clearance around an insulated pipe through the wall is.......with solid masonry. It may have changed in the newest NFPA (anyone?).....

The strange thing about that is that, years ago, many of us installed insulated pipe as a crock and used the regular 2" clearances......which is way off! Never had a fire though. The idea behind having more than the 2" is that when an airspace is not present, heat soaks though easier (a solid block).

Without approving his work, I've seen worse! That is, the chimney may be somewhat OK as it is (although lining is better) and at least he used a piece of insulated chimney though the wall. The pipe clearance is not enough, but in reality since only a tiny part of the pipe faces the ceiling, there is not a fire hazard. Not to say this should not be corrected - just a comment that it is not going to burn down the house instantly like some major messups I've seen.

The lack of a liner probably will affect performance as much as safety. The stove may not work well...

Let's put it this way. A large percentage of stove installations in the country are worse that yours. I know that doesn't help much...just a observation.

I think a pro is needed "on the job" to suss this out right and fix any issues....

 

[kingston73]

Thanks for those words, I'm still not happy with things but I guess it's always good to know it's not the worst out there. I've already scheduled a different company to come out and clean, I'll also have them look at the install and most likely will end up having them put in a liner as well. This is going to stretch our budget paper thin, but it's going to be cheaper than losing our house due to a fire. I wish I had more construction ability so I could do it myself, one reason I like doing my own mechanical work on my truck is because I know I will do it right. I'll post back in a week or two after I get the second company's opinion. I just don't understand how somebody would do a half-ass job, especially if it's your own business. I wouldnt' think a person could afford to not do top notch work in this economy.

 

[albertj03]

Sorry about your bad experience. I've had a few as well, in different areas, and it's a live and learn type of thing. It's a difficult position to be in, on one side you don't want to deal with this guy again or have him in your house and on the other side you don't want to have to pay again to have someone come and not only do the job right but repair the new opening into the flu.

As far as complaints go I would call the place you bought the stove from and tell them that they should find a new installer to recommend since this guy obviously doesn't understand clearances.

 

[kingston73]

I did call the store already, for whatever good that will do. If this was a larger company I definitely would have told them I wanted a different person to come redo the work, but this is a 1 person owned and operated deal and I really don't want him back here ever again.

 

[stoveguy13]

where in se ma are you?

 

[kingston73]

I'm in Bellingham, just above the RI line in Woonsocket. To prevent this from happening again, are there any of you who live in the area and know a GOOD quality chimney person? I'm leaning toward Horizon Chimney Sweeps as I found several good reviews of them online.

 

[SnapCracklePop]

I wish I had more construction ability so I could do it myself, one reason I like doing my own mechanical work on my truck is because I know I will do it right.

This is too late to help you now, but for future reference, and for others who might be interested...

I highly recommend volunteering for Habitat for Humanity. I've worked on houses in four states and two countries, encountering a gamut of construction methods and problems. I feel confident that I could build an entire house from the ground up based on what I learned.

Best of all, it's free instruction! No, best of all, you're helping someone with "a hand up, not a hand out."

And, way off the subject, let me put in a plug here for Carol from Ridgecrest, CA, a mathematician who could look at a blueprint and add feet and inches in her head, determining with spot-on accuracy the placement of seven doors in the longest wall of a house built entirely by women... Yeah! You go, girls! Never mind that we called ourselves the Close Enuf Construction Company.

Nancy (she of the 22-oz hammer)

 

[elmoleaf]

You might have poor or weak draft with this setup, especially in the fall and spring. 13' is relatively short, and you're venting into a somewhat oversize flue instead of a 6" flue.
You may want to extend the top of your chimney another couple of feet.

 

[kingston73]

I've been looking at all my different options and I'm 90% convinced I'm going to go with the Simpson duraliner system. I may need to replace my current thimble, that's the one part I don't really understand even after reading duraliner's installation manual. Seems like a smart way to go since it is already insulated and it will allow me to easily extend my flue to the correct height (current chimney is too short by about 3 feet).

Any of you have the duraliner system installed? Could anybody give me some information or even maybe some pictures of how the duraliner tee/snout/thimble is all installed?

 

[begreen]

Duraliner is a good product. Have you downloaded the duraliner installation manual. It goes over the thimble and snout install on pages 11-12. There's a link on this website at the bottom of the page. http://www.dynamitebuys.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=1255

 

[kingston73]

I've downloaded and read the manual a few times now. The part I'm unsure of is on p.12 - "When branch of tee is in line with hole in wall of
masonry chimney, attach slip connector from the
Masonry Thimble. The Slip Connector has preformed
buttons. The buttons snap into branch
ring. Slide Thimble section into slip connector
and attach black finishing ring to wall of chimney
using screws. (See Figure 23)."

As my setup stands, it has the double wall thimble extending into the room about 7 inches. It is cemented into the wall solidly, from the chimney opening to the inner wall. To use the duraliner system, would this need to be knocked out, or would the duraliner connect to it somehow? I'm also a little confused about what to use, the "masonary thimble" or the "wall pass through". If I do need to take the thimble out and use only the duraliner part, does it still get cemented in like my current setup? Sorry for all the questions, maybe I should make this into a new thread?

 

[begreen]

There are a couple issues here. First, these systems are not meant to be mixed and matched between manufacturers. Second, the installer did not install a thimble. He installed a short section of class A pipe, which precludes the proper attachment of any liner system that I know of. From what I see, if you want to have an insulated liner, the Selkirk stub should be removed.

But perhaps someone else here can come up with a clever idea here that doesn't compromise the safety or performance of the system?

 

[kingston73]

That's what I was thinking but I thought I'd ask here first. Seriously, this guy who is supposedly a professional should never have been given a job. The more I'm learning the more I'm realizing I could have done a better job myself most likely. From the prices I'm seeing online, I don't understand why he wouldn't have used an actual thimble assembly instead of just stove pipe?

 

[kingston73]

OK, now I'm really getting angry at this supposedly professional guy. Based on prices I have found on the internet, this is what I'm estimating the parts would have cost me. Feel free to tell me if I'm being unreasonable:
90 deg. elbow - $30
2 pieces of 24 inch black single wall - $30
18 inch long double wall class A pipe - $90
60 lbs concrete - $20
Total parts price - $170

He charged me $200 for parts. Ok, I get it, if this was a mechanics shop they upcharge on things. He spent about 3 1/2 hours working and charged me $300 for that.

Reasonable or no? I'm relying on you all because I really don't know what a reasonable hourly rate is for masonry work. I know if it was a mechanic it would be about right, generally around $80-90 per hour.

I'm just getting really P.O. looking at things because everything I'm finding makes it look like I'm going to have to basically disassemble everything he did in order to do things right.

 

[raybonz]

OK, now I'm really getting angry at this supposedly professional guy. Based on prices I have found on the internet, this is what I'm estimating the parts would have cost me. Feel free to tell me if I'm being unreasonable:
90 deg. elbow - $30
2 pieces of 24 inch black single wall - $30
18 inch long double wall class A pipe - $90
60 lbs concrete - $20
Total parts price - $170

He charged me $200 for parts. Ok, I get it, if this was a mechanics shop they upcharge on things. He spent about 3 1/2 hours working and charged me $300 for that.

Reasonable or no? I'm relying on you all because I really don't know what a reasonable hourly rate is for masonry work. I know if it was a mechanic it would be about right, generally around $80-90 per hour.

I'm just getting really P.O. looking at things because everything I'm finding makes it look like I'm going to have to basically disassemble everything he did in order to do things right.

His part markup was virtually nil so that was totally fair.. Remember he has to pick up the parts and that takes time and fuel etc.. That doesn't sound like a bad deal to me..

Ray

 

[kingston73]

Like I said, I figured the parts was about right, I just wanted another opinion on the labor price. I guess it's just a hard pill to swallow knowing I'm going to have to redo the whole thimble.

 

[raybonz]

Like I said, I figured the parts was about right, I just wanted another opinion on the labor price. I guess it's just a hard pill to swallow knowing I'm going to have to redo the whole thimble.

Too bad you didn't pull a permit and get it inspected or all this could have been avoided.. Or did you pull one and it passed? On the bright side you have most of the materials so to make it right won't cost a lot material wise.. Chalk it up to experience and learn from this.. Sounds like you know what needs to be done..

Good Luck,
Ray