1. Welcome Hearth.com Guests and Visitors - Please enjoy our forums!
    Hearth.com GOLD Sponsors who help bring the site content to you:
    Hearthstone Soapstone and Cast-Iron stoves( Wood, Gas or Pellet Stoves and Inserts)

oil up 35%, pellets up at least 40%, still good to invest in pellet?

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by lmei007, Jun 16, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ducker

    ducker Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    378
    Loc:
    Leominster, MA
    Given people's misunderstandings of measurements and size, I'm not surprised that I raised eyebrows :)

    I got lucky and through some contacts was able to get my wood from a mill. It was great wood for burning, never hit the ground, off the splitter in to the truck.

    I'm such sick of stacking a gigantic pile of it each year. I just called them to find out the price. Last year was $550 I believe. (a great price for 3 cord - yes it was green but it was mostly dried out by winter, and the price for seasoned was crazy lately!!)

    Helpful Sponsor Ads!





  2. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    It was somewhat implied as follows:
    "American heating oil comes from venezuela, home of narcotraficante lunatic tyrant hugo chavez."

    that's the thing about "talking points" - they are rarely long enough to give any real information.

    Most of our oil comes from North American, meaning the USA, Canada and Mexico.
  3. sinnian

    sinnian Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Messages:
    894
    Loc:
    Limerick, Maine
    Thank you Craig.
  4. kilarney

    kilarney New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Loc:
    Vermont
    I just read that the pellet plant scheduled to open in Berlin, NH plans on producing between 180,000 and 200,000 tons of pellets per year. Currently, Energex claims to have the biggest plant at 200,000 tons per year. I don't live too far from either plant. The farthest is about 135 miles, and the other is no more than 60 miles from here. That's a lot of capacity within a reasonable distance from me.

    My local chain hardware store sells a ton of pellets for $20 cheaper per ton than the official company price. This is because they are Energex pellets, and the store is a lot closer to the plant than other stores in the chain. Thus, the cost of transporting the pellets to the store is cheaper. They pass this savings on to the consumer.

    We shall see what happens. At least production is ramping up. If heating oil prices go down to the $3 per gallon range, demand for pellets should go down as well - and the price of pellets could be very attractive given all of the new manufacturing that's coming online. Anything is possible. I guess the question I have is just how high oil can go before it has a serious enough effect on the economy that the drop in demand will prevent it from going any higher.
  5. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,525
    Loc:
    Arrow Bridge,NY
    More than likely cheaper because the store purchased them in Jan. or Feb and manufacturer price is the current price. Wait till he gets a fresh shipment in to see what his new price will be.
  6. kilarney

    kilarney New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Loc:
    Vermont
    No. I made a fresh order that has to be shipped in. The manager confirmed that his standard policy is to set the price at his store $20 per ton cheaper than the official price that the chain charges. That price may well go up - but our location means cheaper pellets for us whatever the price is. You can spin it however you want. The reality is that it's cheaper to ship pellets when you're closer to the mills.
  7. Tom D

    Tom D New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    46
    Loc:
    Watertown , Wisconsin
    i bought my harman stove last year and my wife said it was the best thing i ever bought her.
    house in winter 74 deg. during the day set back at night burned 2.5 tons .ilove watching fire.
    very relaxing nice heat and im not giving my money to the big oil and gas co. i dont care if
    pellets where 450 a ton i still would burn my stove.
  8. kilarney

    kilarney New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Loc:
    Vermont
    I suspect that pellets will always be at least slightly cheaper than oil for the simple reason that they are more of a hassle than oil. If the price were equal, a lot of folks will stick with oil since you don't have to carry it, load it, etc.
  9. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,525
    Loc:
    Arrow Bridge,NY
    No spin here, just a thought on why they may have been cheaper. Another thought is that the plant doesn't want the hassel of loading and servicing individual customers. They are production minded and only want to deal with tractor trailer quantities.
  10. mmfan36

    mmfan36 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    19
    Loc:
    north jersey
    I just ordered a maxim pellet boiler total investment around $7500. total oil for the year should be around $3500..but the oil will be gone next spring and the boiler will stay and keep working.just my thoughts.
  11. Philip

    Philip New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Messages:
    114
    Loc:
    Huntsville, AL
    Now wait just a cotton-pickin minute! While I agree that our government hasn't done enough to hold down or lower the price of oil and its byproducts, I don't fault George W. Bush. He did his best to try to get increased oil production in the US years before hurricane katrina and long before $100/barrel oil. No, I put the blame on the heads of those in Congress that refused to allow new drilling for oil anywhere in our country. And they're the very ones that are whining the loudest now about high oil and gasoline prices. Did you know that the US produces nearly 50% LESS oil than it did 15 years ago? With increased demand in the US and almost every where else in the world, it's no wonder we have higher oil prices. And I don't expect them to come down in this country until we start producing more oil here at home. But if you want to be a "better" American (in some people's eyes) and start using less energy, just move to Alabama! :) I heated my entire 1700 sq' house (including a 200 sq' sunroom which is 60% windows) last winter using about 1 bag of pellets/per day. And our heating season is from November through early March so I figure I only need to "hoard" 2.5 tons of pellets to heat my house this winter. Before the pellet stove, we heated the house using about 300 gallons of LP. Now that LP is about $3/gallon, I hope to save at least $300 this winter by heating with pellets.

    For those that think we Americans use too much energy, maybe they should all move to the tropics where they wouldn't have to use any energy to heat their houses. Personally, I've been there (South America) and done that and don't want to go back, but it sure gave me an appreciation for this wonderful country. In case you haven't guessed, I don't buy into this "squandering the world's resources" mentality because I don't use near as much as the Hollywood crowd or the Al Gore's of this country (with their multiple mansions, jets and yachts) who seem to be the ones whining the loudest about us using up everything. If they feel that strongly about the issue, they can give it all to the poor and live like the rest of us, but I don't see any of them doing that.
  12. Jerry_NJ

    Jerry_NJ Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,037
    Loc:
    New Jersey USA
    Philip, YES :exclaim:

    I am proud to be an American and have caught some criticism on this form for taking that stand, good to see there are a few others.

    Yes, I saw Gore used something like $30,000 in electricity last year in his main home, and he wasn't there much of the time. One thing is clear, the conservation/green bunch wants high oil/gas prices, even Obama commented that the price of gas is about right the problem was that it got there too fast. With GW's effort to open off-shore, he is late and weak on this, the green members of congress are claiming the oil companies have other leases they haven't drilled on and that they must explore those areas first, never mind there's no oil there.

    I've been conservationist long before it was so popular, starting with the book Silent Spring, that's about 1962 I think, but believe we/America is the country that will drill in sensitive areas with the most caution. I understand Vietnam and China are working with Cuba to gain access to drilling in the fields we haven't touched, who's well rigs do you think will be the cleanest, theirs or ours?

    Finally, every $ we spend on oil produced by the US is a $ that doesn't count against our balance of trade and end up being used against us....in the best cast to buy America (stock, real-estate..) in the worse, terrorism.
  13. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Of course, you don't blame Bush. He isn't responsible for the war, the deficit, the sinking dollar or anything else!

    Look it up - every drilling rig and crew in the USA is busy and spoken for. New wells have been drilled and developed as fast as they can for YEARS.....at least since oil topped about $50 and tax breaks were put into place for domestic oil.

    And, would anyone of right mind suggest that if we produce 68% of our oil instead of 66%, this would have an effect on WORLD prices? Of course not, and oil sold here is not going to be even one cent less than someone elsewhere will pay.

    Sounds like isolationalism is back- but, folks, I hate to clue you in that you are about 400 years too late for that!

    As usual, the talking points rule. The answer to high oil prices is......well, more oil - wait, we have no shortage of oil now! The answer to the obesity problem is more candy and soda, and the answer to our high debt and falling dollar....EASY, cut taxes on corporations and rich people.

    The bottom line is that domestic drilling or lack of it has so little to do with the price and supply that it does not even register on the meter. As I have said before, Sheep being led to slaughter......
  14. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Ok, I think I understand.

    What you are saying is that - somehow - the movie stars and CEO's of Exxon and Rich Defense contractors and a few others...use so much energy, that it makes the entire 300 million Americans AVERAGE vastly higher than our cohorts in similar climates around the world.

    I guess that makes some sense.....NOT.....

    Sorry, Phil, but that is myopic thinking. We are 5% of the world population and use 25% of the energy (older stat, but it is something like that).......we use double that of northern Euro countries which have as high or higher a standard of living.

    I'm certain you don't want us all to move to Alabama.....although a lot of people are moving down south, and the associated problems (water, etc.) will follow.

    The point is....very simply - that we can do MUCH better. That is my opinion, of course, and others are free to wave flags and drive hummers. But even if you don't think we can do better...you should support the efforts of those who think so, because it means more left over for you (plural).
  15. Jerry_NJ

    Jerry_NJ Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,037
    Loc:
    New Jersey USA
    Don't buy what your saying Craig, sounds like its right out of the politic science lounge of Harvard or some other liberal university. Are you sure you're in the stove business?

    I hope the congress does remove its block on oil drilling, and just that, no rigs built, no oil pumped...yet I bet the price of oil will immediately drop, the futures market will say it does make a difference in a open market economy. We don't have to invoke isolationism to improve the balance of trade deficit, we just have to produce more, we either buy it ourselves or we sell it to others, and that improves the BOT.

    You seem over look the fact that the reason most of the tax cut went to people in the upper income bracket (what's that over $60K?), where else could it go, everyone below that was already paying little or no income tax. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it is somethink like the top 5% of incomes pay 80% of the income tax, could be top 10%, still the bad guys who got the big tax breaks were and are the ones carrying the load already. And you don't have to be in the top 10% to have money invested in the stock market, yes even oil stock. If there is to be a "wind-fall" profits tax, let's be more even handed than to hit just big oil, how about Microsoft, most of the top of Hollywood, and big sports, to name a few others who may be getting more than they "deserve", yes and by all means let the congress decide what we all deserve, never mind the old fashioned method of a free market in which we can all compete.
  16. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Jerry, sorry - but invoking "Hollywood" in any kind of conversation like this is very strange! It just has so little to do with anything....I enjoy a good movie here and there, and also enjoy a good Broadway play, but scapegoating a dancer or singer certainly does not help the debate.

    As far as windfall profits, I don't remember discussing that.....so perhaps you made up an opinion for me? I appreciate it. However, since you believe in an "open market", I'm sure you will agree that actual tax subsidies given to oil companies by our government...when oil was $30 a barrel....to entice them to drill at those prices...should be discontinued. After all, in a free market why should you add billions to the billions (in profits).....that is a false economy.

    Again, we are talking pretty much crap because we have an exaggerated sense of our own importance. The rest of the world could care less about whether we drill for more oil....which might come online in 5-10 years (and we are already doing so anyway).....

    In my opinion, the current crisis has these and other aspects to it....

    FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE. If anyone here has stopped in empty gas stations or been unable to get home heating oil, let us know....please.

    Ok, so hopefully we dispensed with that.....

    1. The US Dollar is very weak - this is a fact and responsible for a LOT of the price run-up. It is basic common sense to understand that an oil producing country would rather have solid Euros or other currency than a dollar which is unstable. I just talked to someone who returned from a tour of Russia and Europe and he said vendors will not even accept US Dollars because they are scared of a drop in value before they cash them in!

    2. Instability in the middle east - somewhat relates to or causes #1 above, but at the same time this causes some fear - which leads to more speculation, which leads to more fear, etc. - Heck, I will admit to making quite a lot of money myself on energy equities. Where did this money come from? Well, sadly from all of our pockets when we pay for gas and oil.

    3. Excess speculation in the oil markets - evident to many experts. The price of Natural gas has doubled in the last year - let it remains almost 1/2 the price of fuel oil in many areas. Even LP is now cheaper than oil in many areas - heck, ELECTRIC is almost the same price as oil now. I may be wrong, but I will guess that heating oil will not be the (current) $5 and more when the actual heating season is upon us. Of course, some of that depends on policy and the election, etc.

    In addition to the above, there are the intangibles which are somewhat related to the above - both the American people and folks all over the world KNOW that we have no energy policy and energy plan. This is a crisis of confidence...or lack thereof. The fact is that our "American stock" has declined greatly in most of the world over the last 7 years......this is not opinion, but fact. As to energy specifically, remember that this Prez is an oil man from texas and the VP is an oil man - remember that the Energy policy was made in Cheneys office in secret...meeting with Enron and most of the other oil and energy powers, and had almost nothing to do with conservation or renewables. Remember that large tax credits were passed for expensive SUV purchases....remember that GW asked us all to go shopping (not to sacrifice) in response to 9/11.

    I could go on, but suffice it to say that Americans seem to have a very short memory! Just one year ago, stove sales were dried up........almost nothing.

    While you cannot blame one man (GW) for every aspect of this crisis, it turns out that both his lack of leadership on ANY energy issue, and his being "owned" from the beginning by the oil and energy interests certainly did not help matters! In this case, it is/was BOTH a sin of omission and a sin of commission.
  17. MoeB

    MoeB New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    82
    Loc:
    Bangor, Maine
    Oh, my . . . liberal universities, Al Gore the big bad energy hog -- Rush can't be far away. Change? Yes, we can. Reduce our dependence on foreign oil? Yes, we can. Stop the price gouging? Yes, we can. Heat our homes less expensively? Yes, we can. My husband is a Harvard graduate, and we burn pellets, drive four-cylinder motor vehicles. We must be part of the problem by the sounds of things. That's okay. We can all become part of the solution. Yes, we can.

    Moe
  18. Philip

    Philip New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Messages:
    114
    Loc:
    Huntsville, AL
    What difference does that make? If there is no shoratge of oil, what difference does it make how much energy we use? If there's no shortage then supply and demand isn't affecting the price of oil. And I suppose the price of gasoline being about 30 cents a gallon in Venezuela doesn't have anything to do with how much oil that country produces. I guess the price is so low because they don't use as much energy as we do. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

    You're right. If the previous president had dealt with the Osama problem, there probably would never have been a 9/11/01 attack and no need to start the war on terrorism. During the previous 8 years before Bush, we had the first bombing of the World Trade Center, bombing of Embassies, and bombing of the US Cole. The US response was practically nothing. The prevoius president had a chance to get Osama but instead gave us the biggest tax increase in our nation's history. Okay so they're not related, but IMO if Clinton had stepped up to the plate and took action against the terrorist attacking the US, we probably would not have had to have a war against terrorism. Bush, on the other hand gave us the largest tax cut in history and has successfully stopped terrorist attacks in our country. I say he is for the little guy, like me.
  19. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    Hey, that's why we didn't put Harvard in Alabama!
    ;-P
  20. gw2kpro

    gw2kpro New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Messages:
    188
    Loc:
    Central Maine
    The saddest part of the lack of energy policy debate is that there is no leadership anywhere on the issue.

    GW has no policy. McCain is attempting to invent policy daily but appears to lean toward trying to drill our way out of this. Yeah, that' going to work. Obama has less than zero experience and is basically incoherent on any concrete policy except that he would attempt to tax his way out of this. Yeah that's giong to work.

    People seem to think that Gore has a clue on this issue and will serve in Obama's cabinet, except that Gore himself can't even practice conservation and personally uses up embarrassing amounts of resources that he preaches others should conserve. I'm sorry, but I have no respect for someone who tells me to do as he says, not as he does.

    There is no silver bullet to the energy issue. The problem is that McCain and Obama are congress alre already practicing politics as usual and blaming the "other party" for our energy issues.

    The bottom line is that the oil issue is mainly tied to the falling dollar. Unfortunately, we don't have anyone on either ticket that will be able to address that issue in the near term, congress is basically flopping around as they have been for the last 7 years, McCain and Obama have zero clue and zero experience on the economy. I am amazed and saddened that these two are "the best and brightest" that this nation can produce for a leader.

    Ultimately the economy and dollar will have to persevere not because of, but in spite of, the current sad and upcoming sad leadership. It has done so many times before.
  21. ugenetoo

    ugenetoo New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Loc:
    northern maine
    if you think energy prices are high now, just think what they will be if obama gets elected and then puts gore in charge of energy policy! thats like trying to put out a fire by throwing another tire on it.

    this country will go down in a flaming tailspin.

    i sure hope people dont get taken in by all this CHANGE bull$(!t.
  22. mkmh

    mkmh New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2007
    Messages:
    407
    Loc:
    Southern, Maine
    Amen!
    Anyone who believes that we should change anything is silly. Even crazier are the folks who believe we have any shot of implementing positive change.
    I for one want a realist who will keep going with current policy and not pretend that we have any chance of improvement. I sure with we could give George 4 more years, but I guess John McCain is close enough.

    USA-USA-USA!!!
  23. Turbozcs2003

    Turbozcs2003 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    80
    Loc:
    southernMaine
    It sounds like the Democrats are worried, they pulled the vote to lift the ban on drilling yesterday.

    On our local TV station, they have a pole and it is about 10 to 1 in favor of lifting the ban.

    Our Congressman Allen is again out of touch with reality. He said he doesnt want drilling since it will pollute Georges Bank??
    Guess no one told him that the European Union folks have been drilling in the north sea for 30 years and it is a lot more difficult and have never had any issues or spills. Ditto the rigs in the Gulf.

    It is too bad these folks dont sieze the opportunity and just let them drill and do it responsibly.

    Oh, and i guess the watchdog folks in Tenn said even after Al Gore installed a his solar panels his energy usage increased another 10% versus 2 years ago. He uses a whopping 213,000 KW hrs last year, the equivalent usage of 232 homes for 1 month. Guess he couldnt conserve his way out like he says everyone else should do, another hypocrit!
  24. Jerry_NJ

    Jerry_NJ Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,037
    Loc:
    New Jersey USA
    Get on the petition to congress to open drilling the easy way, via the Internet:

    http://www.americansolutions.com

    The count was over 1 million when I signed on a few minutes ago. Just checking, the server is now in overload!! Maybe we can finally get congress off their a$$.
  25. kilarney

    kilarney New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Loc:
    Vermont
    Frankly, both presidential candidates fail to impress me as far as an energy policy is concerned.

    One reason our dollar is so low is because of our absurd national debt. Republicans, who used to be fiscal conservatives, have lost their minds when it comes to spending. Democrats are no better. Just look at all of the pork coming out of Congress.

    What we need is heavily funded government research into alternative energy. It should be like Kennedy's proclamation that we would put a man on the moon. I'd hazard to guess that if we spent the money that's been put into Iraq on alternative any research, we'd be MUCH farther along than we are now.

    I'm not pretending that there is a magic solution here. Hydrogen has its problems. Solar isn't practical for a large portion of the country, and advances in technology have been extremely slow. Ethanol is absurdly inefficient.

    However, the best thing we can do for our national security is to stop sending billions of dollars to countries that support terrorists. It's that simple. I've always wondered why those who espouse national security don't also argue for alternative energy research.

    At least McCain wants to see more nukes. That's something that I can support.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page