PE Pacific Insert - Two Years After the Repair

[Sisu]

I have held a stinger in my hand only once, and I laid down only about an inch of bead at that time. I am no welder.

In a former life, I was a technical writer and one of my more epic tomes, (still in use today), was about how to make an initial weld that will not crack when stressed, and how to make a repair to one which has cracked under repeated stress. There are a couple of things that strike me when I look at the pictures, one being the difference in the oxidation of the welds and the surrounding metal, the locations of the cracks, and the repetitious nature of the problem. When I see things like that, I think that there are issues with the original design in that the metal in the stove must flex rather than be allowed to expand and contract, that the original welding included a lot of slag and gas bubbles meaning that the welder has a skill level similar to my own, that the welds were made to cold metal with a substandard machine and that the welding rod itself might have been incompatible with the intended purpose.

All of these things support numbers 1, 3, and 4 in the preceding post.

Thank you Milt, those are interesting observations! The original welder for my firebox was probably a robot, since the PE manufacturing process is automated. Therefore, if the settings were out, weld would be out. Unfortunately, the robot does not have senses to be able to judge the heat penetration, etc., unlike a human welder.

 

[Sisu]

Suspicions can take you all over the place. Ask and let us know what they say.

Sorry I don't mean to speculate. I will wait to hear back from them to ask more questions.

 

[raybonz]

I would take the refund and move on from this nightmare.

Just as a point of reference, I don't think I've ever heard of a Buck or Englander stove insert having these cracking problems and I'm sure they get burned as hard as the PE inserts.

Good luck,
Bill

IIRC BrotherBart had a faulty weld on his 30NC. To their credit, Englander dealt with it quickly. Problems can and do happen with any stove. It's how they're dealt with that's important.

Bingo This is what I have been thinking all along!

Ray

 

[Todd]

I think this guy was trying to get you to admit you overfire the stove. One of the problems with inserts is there's no way to get an accurate temp reading or control an excessive draft with a pipe damper. Where were you taking your temp readings? I don't get why he stated temps were irrelevant and later stated it sounds like the stove is running rough. Rough to me would be overfiring due to overdrafting. These stoves can easily overfire if the draft really kicks in because the primary and secondary air is fixed at a certain point so you can't turn it down to a low dirty burn. They manufacture and test these stove with a 6"x 15" or so chimney, once you go 5-10' over that the draft will make the stove operate differently, maybe even rough? The chimney will determine how many BTU's go out into the house not a size or leakiness of a house. Maybe suggest the dealer come out with a draft meter?

Hopfully they will do the right thing and honor the customers wishes. If you get your new fire box I would consider rigging the air to close down more so you have more control or leave the surrounds off so you can monitor the temps and maybe use a pipe damper.

 

[Sisu]

I think this guy was trying to get you to admit you overfire the stove. One of the problems with inserts is there's no way to get an accurate temp reading or control an excessive draft with a pipe damper. Where were you taking your temp readings? I don't get why he stated temps were irrelevant and later stated it sounds like the stove is running rough. Rough to me would be overfiring due to overdrafting. These stoves can easily overfire if the draft really kicks in because the primary and secondary air is fixed at a certain point so you can't turn it down to a low dirty burn. They manufacture and test these stove with a 6"x 15" or so chimney, once you go 5-10' over that the draft will make the stove operate differently, maybe even rough? The chimney will determine how many BTU's go out into the house not a size or leakiness of a house. Maybe suggest the dealer come out with a draft meter?

Hopfully they will do the right thing and honor the customers wishes. If you get your new fire box I would consider rigging the air to close down more so you have more control or leave the surrounds off so you can monitor the temps and maybe use a pipe damper.

True. The insert is in the basement, so the liner travels from the basement, to the ground floor, to the attic and out the chimney. I have not measured the length, but it must be 20' or greater.

If over-drafting is the case, I would hope that they would offer solutions. On a side note, when my stove was originally removed to be repaired, I asked the dealer service manger (who was removing my stove) if the stove looked like it had been over-fired. He stated that the stove looked fine and he did not see anything that would indicate over-firing. I don't know if his opinion carries any weight, but I imagine he has seem more stoves than I have.

 

[hemlock]

I have to wonder how many more stoves are out there that are cracked just the same, but the owners are not aware of it. It's not everyone that dismantles their stoves and really looks around at them the way many of us here do. There seems to be a handful of members here with PE stoves that have strangley similar cracks - which to me indicates there are likely many more.

 

[Sisu]

I have to wonder how many more stoves are out there that are cracked just the same, but the owners are not aware of it. It's not everyone that dismantles their stoves and really looks around at them the way many of us here do. There seems to be a handful of members here with PE stoves that have strangley similar cracks - which to me indicates there are likely many more.

That is why I wonder about PE's idea that it is "rough" operation vs a mistake in construction.

Another thing I was thinking about is that during the burn season, there are enough coals/embers left over in the morning. I just put another load of wood in, open the air control, and slowly shut it down as things get going again. Other times, when away for longer (a day or two), I can still dig through the ash and find enough embers that I usually don't have to use a match to get things going. If I am able to achieve an overnight burn, would that be an indicator that excessive draft is not an issue?

 

[Todd]

Well if your getting overnight burns and there are no other signs of overfiring besides the welds I'd say it's a manufactured problem so they should honor the warranty. If they don't it may be wise to look into small claims court, once they get wiff of that I bet they come through.

 

[raybonz]

I have to wonder how many more stoves are out there that are cracked just the same, but the owners are not aware of it. It's not everyone that dismantles their stoves and really looks around at them the way many of us here do. There seems to be a handful of members here with PE stoves that have strangley similar cracks - which to me indicates there are likely many more.

That is why I wonder about PE's idea that it is "rough" operation vs a mistake in construction.

Another thing I was thinking about is that during the burn season, there are enough coals/embers left over in the morning. I just put another load of wood in, open the air control, and slowly shut it down as things get going again. Other times, when away for longer (a day or two), I can still dig through the ash and find enough embers that I usually don't have to use a match to get things going. If I am able to achieve an overnight burn, would that be an indicator that excessive draft is not an issue?

I run my stove 24/7 when it's cold enough, does that constitute rough usage? Never seen a wood stove that says for "intermittent duty" only.. Ran my old CDW 24/7 same way for 20+ yrs. and it's still in one piece too.

Ray

 

[Sisu]

I have to wonder how many more stoves are out there that are cracked just the same, but the owners are not aware of it. It's not everyone that dismantles their stoves and really looks around at them the way many of us here do. There seems to be a handful of members here with PE stoves that have strangley similar cracks - which to me indicates there are likely many more.

That is why I wonder about PE's idea that it is "rough" operation vs a mistake in construction.

Another thing I was thinking about is that during the burn season, there are enough coals/embers left over in the morning. I just put another load of wood in, open the air control, and slowly shut it down as things get going again. Other times, when away for longer (a day or two), I can still dig through the ash and find enough embers that I usually don't have to use a match to get things going. If I am able to achieve an overnight burn, would that be an indicator that excessive draft is not an issue?

I run my stove 24/7 when it's cold enough, does that constitute rough usage? Never seen a wood stove that says for "intermittent duty" only.. Ran my old CDW 24/7 same way for 20+ yrs. and it's still in one piece too.

Ray

According to Cory from PE, it could be. I run 5 bush cords a year through my stove, and he considered that running the "upper limit".

Also, the fact the heat wasn't running my family out of the den, indicated to him that I am running it "rough". However, that is strictly subjective. I regularly sit in a sauna that is over 100 degrees Celsius (>212 degrees Fahrenheit). So if the basement den is too hot, chances are I wouldn't notice. Also, I am not running my PE insert like I run a sauna stove.

 

[begreen]

"Rough" usage sounds very subjective. I've never heard of a usage limit for a stove before, nor have I ever read this. There are lots of folks here that go through that amount of wood annually or more, particularly those living in climates much colder than the Pacific NW. The only thing I would caution a large PE stove user of doing is adding a large charge of wood on a large hot coal bed, especially not with small splits. That can set up conditions for the EBT to open up and create one hellacious secondary burn. But in some past thread I thought I read that they tested the big stoves by stoking it continually with dry fir just to test it's durability in this condition.

 

[raybonz]

"Rough" usage sounds really subjective. I've never heard of a usage limit for a stove before, nor have I ever read this. There are lots of folks here that go through that amount of wood annually or more, particularly those living in climates much colder than the Pacific NW. The only thing I would caution a large PE stove user of doing is adding a large charge of wood on a large hot coal bed, especially not with small splits. That can set up conditions for the EBT to open up and create one hellacious secondary burn. But in some past thread I thought I read that they tested the big stoves by stoking it continually with dry fir just to test it's durability in this condition.

BG do you know if the cracked PE stoves only were a problem in certain years? I don't recall you having any trouble just the opposite in fact..

Ray

 

[begreen]

IIRC, there was a thread that talked about this where it was mentioned that it was a limited issue with stoves of a certain vintage. I don't remember the exact dates, but did note that our stove fell into this time period. It is a 2008 model.

 

[raybonz]

IIRC, there was a thread that talked about this where it was mentioned that it was a limited issue with stoves of a certain vintage. I don't remember the exact dates, but did note that our stove fell into this time period. It is a 2008 model.

I read hundreds of posts and it seemed that a couple years had this problem.. BTW what does IIRC mean?

Ray

 

[Milton Findley]

If I Recall Correctly, IIRC.

I am not that smart, I looked it up the other day.

 

[raybonz]

If I Recall Correctly, IIRC.

I am not that smart, I looked it up the other day.

Thanx Milt just a new acronym for me..


Ray

 

[leeave96]

I would take the refund and move on from this nightmare.

Just as a point of reference, I don't think I've ever heard of a Buck or Englander stove insert having these cracking problems and I'm sure they get burned as hard as the PE inserts.

Good luck,
Bill

IIRC BrotherBart had a faulty weld on his 30NC. To their credit, Englander dealt with it quickly. Problems can and do happen with any stove. It's how they're dealt with that's important.

But we all know BrotherBart don't know how to run a stove.... And when he pegs the needle on his stove top thermometer from time to time, blowing the cap off this chimney in the process, the stove doesn't split in half and the welds don't crack. PE ought to take a page from Englander and Woodstock. Their reputation on warranty claims is starting to look like the black days of vermont castings.

Bill

 

[raybonz]

IIRC, there was a thread that talked about this where it was mentioned that it was a limited issue with stoves of a certain vintage. I don't remember the exact dates, but did note that our stove fell into this time period. It is a 2008 model.

I just found out my floor model was manufactured on April 16, 2007!! This is not what I wanted to know

Ray

 

[begreen]

I would take the refund and move on from this nightmare.

Just as a point of reference, I don't think I've ever heard of a Buck or Englander stove insert having these cracking problems and I'm sure they get burned as hard as the PE inserts.

Good luck,
Bill

IIRC BrotherBart had a faulty weld on his 30NC. To their credit, Englander dealt with it quickly. Problems can and do happen with any stove. It's how they're dealt with that's important.

But we all know BrotherBart don't know how to run a stove.... And when he pegs the needle on his stove top thermometer from time to time, blowing the cap off this chimney in the process, the stove doesn't split in half and the welds don't crack. PE ought to take a page from Englander and Woodstock. Their reputation on warranty claims is starting to look like the black days of vermont castings.

Bill

Keep stirring the pot Bill, but there is a world of difference in the problems and issues that plagued VC as a company and for certain of their models for years.

 

[begreen]

IIRC, there was a thread that talked about this where it was mentioned that it was a limited issue with stoves of a certain vintage. I don't remember the exact dates, but did note that our stove fell into this time period. It is a 2008 model.

I just found out my floor model was manufactured on April 16, 2007!! This is not what I wanted to know

Ray

So far I think most of the problems have been with a few Summits of this era. I also wouldn't be surprised if they don't show up in the Alderleas of the same vintage due to their greater mass acting as a heat sink. Time will tell, but so far our's looks fine.

 

[raybonz]

IIRC, there was a thread that talked about this where it was mentioned that it was a limited issue with stoves of a certain vintage. I don't remember the exact dates, but did note that our stove fell into this time period. It is a 2008 model.

I just found out my floor model was manufactured on April 16, 2007!! This is not what I wanted to know

Ray

So far I think most of the problems have been with a few Summits of this era. I also wouldn't be surprised if they don't show up in the Alderleas of the same vintage due to their greater mass acting as a heat sink. Time will tell, but so far our's looks fine.

Thanx BG I think I'm gonna be ill.. Come to think of it I don't recall reading about any Alderlea's with the problem and they use the same firebox.. This makes me think the blower would beneficial and I plan on using one here..

Ray

 

[leeave96]

Keep stirring the pot Bill, but there is a world of difference in the problems and issues that plagued VC as a company and for certain of their models for years.

I'm not trying to stir the pot and I realize VC's past - but...

The stove in question is not a box store cheapo stove. It is premium Pacific Energy stove - and costs a lot of $$$s. One can rationalize defects and rightly conclude that these cracked welds likely effect a tiny percentage of stoves - but if you're the one with a defective stove, your at 100%. PE ought to put this to bed and give the guy a new stove or a full refund - just because their stoves have a reputation for being quality products.

But if you got a bad VC stove and got no satisifaction from VC back in the day, I don't know how that's any different to the end user if you got a lemon PE stove today and PE won't make it right by their written warranty either. Don't know how pointing out that is stirring the pot.

FWIW, I would still recommend the PE stove line-up and I especially like the Alderlea T5 and T6 models. I could see one of those in my house one of these days.

Thanks!
Bill

 

[begreen]

Seeing this is a case in progress, I would wait and see what the dealer and PE do next instead of speculating. So far they have been pretty good for those with the few issues reported here. I'm hopeful that Sisu gets a good outcome too.

 

[leeave96]

Seeing this is a case in progress, I would wait and see what the dealer and PE do next instead of speculating. So far they have been pretty good for those with the few issues reported here. I'm hopeful that Sisu gets a good outcome too.

BTW - your avitar of that T6 really make a good case for the T6. That's one nice looking stove!

Bill

 

[raybonz]

Seeing this is a case in progress, I would wait and see what the dealer and PE do next instead of speculating. So far they have been pretty good for those with the few issues reported here. I'm hopeful that Sisu gets a good outcome too.

+1!!

FYI I am not a welding expert but my welds looks good that I can see with good penetration so this really could be an isolated problem that unfortunately PE's QC were negligent and did not catch.. All companies want to catch rejects before they are shipped as they are expensive to rectify once they leave the factory..

Ray