PE Pacific Insert - Two Years After the Repair

[begreen]

I have watched our T6 pretty carefully for similar issues and see none. But, like BB pointed out, I am also watching temps on the top of the stove, not the face. I don't let it get over 750°F on the stove top. If someone is reading 750-800 on the face of the stove, I suspect the flue collar may be starting to glow. This winter I will take some accurate IR readings comparing the two locations. Hopefully that will provide better guidance.

 

[certified106]

Anybody ever notice that these busted stoves are inserts. Folks quit running these things at temps measured on the front of it based on what PE and everybody else tells you about the temps on the stove top of a freestanding stove. Two years ago I reported here about testing temps on my old insert. The front of the thing is 150 - 200 degrees cooler than the top plate. I did the measurements again last year with the 30-NC and the spread is larger. Because the air wash in the front to keep the glass clean cools the front of the stove.

So if PE tells you that running a Summit at 900 every once in a while won't bust it, they ain't talking about 900 on a mag thermo stuck on the front of it.

Message to be repeated in another two years.

The other question is if the front is cooler vs the back, why would the cracks appear in the front of the stove (where theoretically the integrity of the steel should be stronger because it is cooler)? I am not trying to debate the use of the magnetic thermometers, but I think they are used more for curiosity/characterization vs operation gospel.

What would be good to know are the details of how everyone is running their PE stove (eg. how many cords of wood burned, type of wood, length & diameter of flue, do they feel it is running too hot, etc.). From reviewing the threads, there might be some variation in use (eg. Nic 36 had a cracked Vista Classic that he said only burned one cord a year vs my Pacific burning 5 cords a year).

From what I have heard, there has been a design change, since the 2006-2006 PE were manufactured. Apparently, they no longer weld the stoves at the places where the internal welds let go (primary air/airwash). That might be in recognition that the design was in part responsible for facilitating cracking.

Either way, I hope that we can all find solutions.

Thermal expansion is a funny thing.....In my best guess, as the rest of the firebox is heating up and expanding the front section of the stove isn't seeing the same expansion due to the cooler steel being in the front from the airwash. Then as the sides and top heat up they exert a certain amount of force on the front panels of the stove and the cracks form at the weakest point which is most likely the Heat affected zone of the weld or they pop a weld with poor root penetration apart.

 

[hemlock]

Anybody ever notice that these busted stoves are inserts. Folks quit running these things at temps measured on the front of it based on what PE and everybody else tells you about the temps on the stove top of a freestanding stove. Two years ago I reported here about testing temps on my old insert. The front of the thing is 150 - 200 degrees cooler than the top plate. I did the measurements again last year with the 30-NC and the spread is larger. Because the air wash in the front to keep the glass clean cools the front of the stove.

So if PE tells you that running a Summit at 900 every once in a while won't bust it, they ain't talking about 900 on a mag thermo stuck on the front of it.

Message to be repeated in another two years.

The other question is if the front is cooler vs the back, why would the cracks appear in the front of the stove (where theoretically the integrity of the steel should be stronger because it is cooler)? I am not trying to debate the use of the magnetic thermometers, but I think they are used more for curiosity/characterization vs operation gospel.

What would be good to know are the details of how everyone is running their PE stove (eg. how many cords of wood burned, type of wood, length & diameter of flue, do they feel it is running too hot, etc.). From reviewing the threads, there might be some variation in use (eg. Nic 36 had a cracked Vista Classic that he said only burned one cord a year vs my Pacific burning 5 cords a year).

From what I have heard, there has been a design change, since the 2006-2006 PE were manufactured. Apparently, they no longer weld the stoves at the places where the internal welds let go (primary air/airwash). That might be in recognition that the design was in part responsible for facilitating cracking.

Either way, I hope that we can all find solutions.

Thermal expansion is a funny thing.....In my best guess, as the rest of the firebox is heating up and expanding the front section of the stove isn't seeing the same expansion due to the cooler steel being in the front from the airwash. Then as the sides and top heat up they exert a certain amount of force on the front panels of the stove and the cracks form at the weakest point which is most likely the Heat affected zone of the weld or they pop a weld with poor root penetration apart.

I would have thought that so long as the heat is brought up slowly and evenly, and given time to evenly spread throughout the metal of the firebox, thermal expansion would not be that much of an issue. I could see a fast, large fire causing a degree of thermal shock that could cause some trouble, especially from a "cold" firebox.

 

[Sisu]

[
I would have thought that so long as the heat is brought up slowly and evenly, and given time to evenly spread throughout the metal of the firebox, thermal expansion would not be that much of an issue. I could see a fast, large fire causing a degree of thermal shock that could cause some trouble, especially from a "cold" firebox.

I think the same. The only experience I have with steel is doing some blade/blacksmithing as a hobby. If you cool steel too quickly (eg. tool steel quenched in water) it will crack. The same can happen if the steel is heated to quickly and forged.

You would think that the mild steel in a stove running 24/7 would be pretty annealed and bend or warp vs crack. But I guess there are a lot of different variables to consider.

 

[karl]

I have an IR thermometer and I check the front and top of the stove. Not the top heat shield but behind it where that actual top is. With the blower running, I don't see much of a temperature differences. Certainly not 200 degrees.

As for temps, I think these stoves, like other ones, have a temperature they like to run at and it's easy to get them there and they stay put.

I have never seen 900 on my Summit. I have only had 750 once or twice. That was the first year I had the stove. I was new to burning. It was super cold out and I was burning pine. Mine usually peaks in the 650 to just shy of 700 range. Then it cools down to 500-550 and stays there until it starts running out of wood.

 

[NCredneck]

Hmmmm, I am considering a PE summit but just read this entire thread and now having second thoughts. I will be a noob to burning wood, how would I ever not make a mistake of getting a stove too hot when these experienced longtime burners sometimes do. I will be watching closely as to what happens but for now maybe the Osburn 2400 or even a no name big box store unit would make a better addition to the house. At least if it fails and the factory doesn't help in any way, I wouldn't be out but 1000.00 or so for a new stove.
By the way if you are using the stove "rough" because its over drafting, shouldn't the installer be liable for that anyway because he installed the flue?

 

[Sisu]

Hmmmm, I am considering a PE summit but just read this entire thread and now having second thoughts. I will be a noob to burning wood, how would I ever not make a mistake of getting a stove too hot when these experienced longtime burners sometimes do. I will be watching closely as to what happens but for now maybe the Osburn 2400 or even a no name big box store unit would make a better addition to the house. At least if it fails and the factory doesn't help in any way, I wouldn't be out but 1000.00 or so for a new stove.
By the way if you are using the stove "rough" because its over drafting, shouldn't the installer be liable for that anyway because he installed the flue?

I wouldn't let our experience from dissuading you from purchasing a PE. It might be just that the stoves of a particular vintage were susceptible to cracked welds.

I originally installed my insert, so there was no installer involved. It replaced an older insert that had a stainless steel liner installed (by a company) as a condition when I bought my house. All that was involved was removing the old insert and reconnecting the liner to the new one.

When over-drafting was implied recently, it was the first time someone had suggested that ,ince I bought the stove in 2005. I had previous discussions prior (2005-2009) with the dealer and PE about how the insert was operating and was told that everything was okay.

If over-drafting is a factor, I imagine that it isn't an easy fix with an insert.

 

[begreen]

Understand that most folks come to this site for information. They fall into a few basic categories: first time buyers, upgrades, self-installs and problems. That's an oversimplification, but you get the idea. Every stove company has an occasional issue. Only a couple have received consistent complaints and even then it might just be with a few of the many models they make. We hear about the problems because people are looking for solutions. What we don't often hear are the thousands of happy owners. It happens with stoves, cars, saws, you name it. What's worth investigating are the references and opinions of the dealer you choose. If it is a good one, they will be happy to provide you references. If not, try another.

 

[iceman]

Hmmmm, I am considering a PE summit but just read this entire thread and now having second thoughts. I will be a noob to burning wood, how would I ever not make a mistake of getting a stove too hot when these experienced longtime burners sometimes do. I will be watching closely as to what happens but for now maybe the Osburn 2400 or even a no name big box store unit would make a better addition to the house. At least if it fails and the factory doesn't help in any way, I wouldn't be out but 1000.00 or so for a new stove.
By the way if you are using the stove "rough" because its over drafting, shouldn't the installer be liable for that anyway because he installed the flue?

I love my stove, its very simple to operate, there is a learning curve but that isn't long if you stay in this website..
I am sure PE will resolve this... Begreen said it right .. its true things happen to every manufacture at some point..
Also BB made a good point about inserts and not being able to truly tell their temp..
PE also said that they have changed how they make the stove since then. I assume it was to correct this

 

[Dix]

Well, for the heck of it, I just got down and checked the Pacific.

Nothing here to see, move along folks.

I love this unit. I love that it puts out heat with out the blower, ease of operation once you get past the curve, and the reliability of it. It came to this home to work, and it's doing a damned fine job of it.

If the FP were larger, I woulda gone with a Summit.

 

[iceman]

Well spoke to a distributor last week who after playing phone tag for a couple days and said we would resolve it next week ( meaning this past week) haven't heard from him at all....looks like it will be a long one and soon will be time to burn