Purchase Advice -- New Defiant, Encore or ???

[Jack768]

I'm new to the forum (lurked for a year or so) and am considering a new stove purchase. Situation is that I have a circa 3600 square foot house (400 sq ft. or so is irrelevant as it's finished basement with a closed solid door that has its own central heat zone). I have a 750 square foot great room that's a challenge to heat -- high cathedral ceilings, skylights, etc. It lags the rest of the house by circa 5 degrees and is uncomfortably cold with the rest of the house at a normal (68 or so) temp. Relatively open floor plan with a large central staircase connecting the basement level and two main floors, so heat moves upstairs readily (not necessarily a good thing, since there's a central skylight another half story up from the second floor ceiling that likes to collect my heat and disperse it to the outdoors). My house is somewhat drafty and not super well-insulated (and lots of heat loss through windows and skylights).

I have a Lennox Montecito zero-clearance fireplace in the living room (adjacent to the great room), and an older BIS unit with gravity air/convection in the upstairs master bedroom. Both of these are circa 2 cubic foot fireboxes (Montecito seems a little bigger than the BIS). The Montecito does a good job moving heat to adjacent rooms and upstairs w/ the blower (and has been a great unit so far), but just doesn't have enough capacity --running both fireplaces with temps in the mid-20s, I can hold the temperature drop to something like half a degree or a degree per hour, but I can't keep it above 60 or so without running the furnace intermittently. In retrospect, I went too small with the Montecito and should have gotten the larger model, the Estate.

I want something that will (i) provide a point heat source to warm up the great room; (ii) make it feasible running not more than two units simultaneously (I'd go crazy feeding three) for the furnace to never kick on when I'm home, and (iii) provide 12 hour or so burn times where I can do a hot start from decent coals when I get home from work.

My wife doesn't like the looks of soapstone, so Woodstock/Hearthstone are out, but she likes the looks of the VC Encore and Defiant units (the new 2-in-1s got some decent partial season reviews here last year, what came before seems to have had more of a checkered reception). I might be able to sell her on a Jotul or Alderlea. My inclination is to buy a Defiant because I've dealt with the dealer before and trust him and people seem happy with 2-in-1 (the cat should handle low overnight and workday burns better, and superlow emissions make me feel better about creosote), and my second choice would be a Jotul F600. Have also thought about putting something really big (like a Blaze King) in the basement level where I could get away with the aesthetics, but I suspect this is very inefficient (and I'd have to run almost three stories' worth of Class A chimney, a major cost factor). Questions are: (i) what would you recommend overall, and (ii) would something in the Defiant/F600 class be too big/make the great room uncomfortable, such that you'd recommend moving down a size notch, e.g. Encore/Oslo/Castine? Any guidance is appreciated.

 

[webbie]

I would think that the larger new 2 in 1's would specifically have been tested to run at lower settings...after all, that is part of the idea. If so, then the danger of over sizing may not be there!

If, and this is a big if, your wood supply is large - then the Defiant may be a great stove. If you know and trust the dealer, that is a another plus! One of the biggest problems with the older VC's was the refusal of the new company to honor warranties after they purchased it - this left a lot of customers unhappy. Enough time has gone by now that your dealer should have a good take on what the intentions and follow-through of the new firm is. If he is satisfied with that - and with the stove, then I'd say to go for it.

 

[Bub381]

Wow! This is too much for me to answer but i'll pick away at some.I'm new here too but i do know that you want to look at these stoves before you buy.The Castine is quite small and you definately wont get that 12 hr burn.If you can get 3 big splits in there i'll be surprised,2 big splits maybe.The firebox tapers in the back,i know because i almost bought 1 before we found the Jotul Rangeley.It's definately not in the class with the Oslo it's smaller than the Encore.It's not a deep stove by no means though it's good for what it's made for and i'm gonna say about 6 hr burn.I know there have been issues with V/C's lately but not sure about the 2 in 1's.Now i'd prob be thinking inserts and stop losing all that heat.As far as just what you do need well i'm not your man.I'm learning as well.This is what i have found in my travels and is only my opinion.These wood burners will fix ya right up.Good luck with it and hurry up,we're getting itchy for burn reports. :cheese:

 

[Jack768]

Thanks. Good point that the larger unit, with a cat, should run well turned down as necessary. Wood supply is fine -- I have about 3 cords of scroungings of which 1.5 are burnable this year (I think my work translates to about $2 an hour but it was good weekend exercise), and actually have found an LI firewood dealer who sells seasoned wood (last season it tested circa 15-16% on a resplit) to supplement what I have time to get. Last year I burned 2 cords in the ZC units, which I would expect would go up running a bigger unit for longer burn times. The widespread refractory problems/gasket problems/puffing problems etc. that are reported re older VC stoves make me nervous, but the new 2-in-1 seems to have fixed these issues (the video that's on here showing the increased attention to refractory durability is reassuring), and the people who bought these units last year appear happy with them (if anyone owns a 2-in-1 and has anything to add to what was on last season's threads, would be great to hear).

 

[Jack768]

Thanks, Bub. Can't do an insert -- no masonry fireplace. The zero clearance units aren't open fireplaces, they're high-efficiency units with outside air kits, akin to a woodstove in a zero-clearance enclosure that lets you build it into a wall (the Montecito is an EPA non-catalytic stove). Have looked at the VCs, F500 and F600 but have not seen a Castine.

What sorts of burn times do you get with the Rangeley (or have you not had a chance to fun a full load since your installation)?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Thanks. Good point that the larger unit, with a cat, should run well turned down as necessary. Wood supply is fine -- I have about 3 cords of scroungings of which 1.5 are burnable this year (I think my work translates to about $2 an hour but it was good weekend exercise), and actually have found an LI firewood dealer who sells seasoned wood (last season it tested circa 15-16% on a resplit) to supplement what I have time to get. Last year I burned 2 cords in the ZC units, which I would expect would go up running a bigger unit for longer burn times. The widespread refractory problems/gasket problems/puffing problems etc. that are reported re older VC stoves make me nervous, but the new 2-in-1 seems to have fixed these issues (the video that's on here showing the increased attention to refractory durability is reassuring), and the people who bought these units last year appear happy with them (if anyone owns a 2-in-1 and has anything to add to what was on last season's threads, would be great to hear).

You'll probably go through about 4 cords for the winter. If you plan on buying wood from the supplier you might as well buy next year's wood now, as well, so you are all set with dry wood. Meanwhile, if you still like to scrounge for wood, it allows you to build up your future supply.

 

[Bub381]

I haven't had the weather for a full burn.Only had er up to 400 so far.I don't know alot about this stuff but hope i helped some. Not sure if the 2.6 sq ft firebox on this stove will give me a 12 hr burn would be nice and 10 would be great.I'm thinking you'll need around a 3.0 ft firebox.This is outa my league but i think you're on the right road with your stoves.Alderlea and Jotul are good choices along with others.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I want something that will (i) provide a point heat source to warm up the great room; (ii) make it feasible running not more than two units simultaneously (I'd go crazy feeding three) for the furnace to never kick on when I'm home, and (iii) provide 12 hour or so burn times where I can do a hot start from decent coals when I get home from work.

Just to make sure you understand what you might be purchasing, the burn times that I have heard from owners and dealers for the new Encore is about 8 hours and the new Defiant will offer about 10 hours.

 

[Jack768]

Interesting. Definitely pushes me towards the Defiant -- 10 hour burns means evening cold starts sometimes during the week, but not all the time. Are these useful heat output burn times, or enough coals to restart without kindling burn times (if you have a sense of that)?

 

[BrowningBAR]

Interesting. Definitely pushes me towards the Defiant -- 10 hour burns means evening cold starts sometimes during the week, but not all the time. Are these useful heat output burn times, or enough coals to restart without kindling burn times (if you have a sense of that)?

Useful heat output times. You should have plenty of coals to reload.

 

[taylorco]

It is never a good idea to put an oversize stove in your home - unless you have an extremely under insulated, very drafty home - that could be a different story. The new ultra efficient stoves are very different from the old wood gobblers of the past. I sell wood stoves in the Arctic. The company I work for only carries highly efficient stoves that get long burns and we test all the stoves before we sell them. The Encore is a very good seller in this area, which is surprising as the firebox does not seem that big. It has grid irons in the front of the fire box which allows one to pack it with wood and not risk burning logs rolling out when you open the doors to refill. A popular feature here is the top opening - pop it open and toss another log on the fire - oh and yes you can cook some beans on the stainless cover. In this region we have very poor quality wood - mostly forest fire burnt and it is poplar and spruce but the trees here are stunted. This wood tends to burn very fast, lots of ash. The Encore has been testing at 8 to 10 hours and our customers like it because it will burn all night. People are not familiar with catalytic stoves (my first one was a Blaze King Princess in 1983) and they need to learn how to operate these stoves. They must be run on a very high burn at least once a day (in the morning when you start todays burn) for around 20 minutes to get the catalytic combustor up on step - then the stove can be dampened down to a low burn. According to our customers, the VC Encore, like the Blaze King Princess and King catalytics, burns approximately 1/3 less wood per season than a similarly sized non catalytic stove. The catalytic stoves are much more expensive, and yet, we sell almost as many catalytic stoves as non catalytic stoves, the people who know, buy catalytic. It is more than 20 below zero here for more than 6 months of the time, stoves that will burn all night are essential and so are clean burning stoves. The catalytic stoves, when being used properly, really cut down on the creasote in your chimney. No one wants to climb up on a roof in a howling wind at 40 below. I hope this helps. Good luck with your new stove.

 

[VCBurner]

Vc, Jotul or otherwise. I would almost certainly say it would not be oversizing it to run a Defiant or a Firelight in that huge room. You want to heat the great room which is 750 sq ft with cathedral ceilings. The Defiant, I believe is rated to heat a certain sq footage in a house with 8ft ceilings. The same can be said about ohter stoves. The cathedral ceilings are a beautiful heat trap. They cause your large stove to heat quite a bit less square footage of your house. Depending on the height of your great room ceiling it may be more like a 1500 sq ft space to heat or even more! With the great room cathedral ceiling and staircase to the second floor, you will need all the heating power a stove can posses and more.

My house is somewhat drafty and not super well-insulated (and lots of heat loss through windows and skylights).

You said it yourself. Sounds like a prescription for a big stove to me.

In retrospect, I went too small with the Montecito and should have gotten the larger model, the Estate.

You probably don't want to say this again about a $2000-$3000 purchase decision. You will find many here who complain about insufficient heat coming from a small stove. Not too many complain about having too much heat in sub freezing weather though!

Do yourself a favor, buy a big stove, you will not regret it. The space you're sharing this heat with is at least 3200 sq ft. Any stove would be struggling to heat your house during the winter. I understand, you don't need it to heat the entire house. But, this doesn't mean the heat won't spread out to the places you're not intending to heat, including the outside.

Good luck LIJack, keep us posted.

 

[BrowningBAR]

It is never a good idea to put an oversize stove in your home - unless you have an extremely under insulated, very drafty home - that could be a different story. The new ultra efficient stoves are very different from the old wood gobblers of the past. I sell wood stoves in the Arctic. The company I work for only carries highly efficient stoves that get long burns and we test all the stoves before we sell them. The Encore is a very good seller in this area, which is surprising as the firebox does not seem that big. It has grid irons in the front of the fire box which allows one to pack it with wood and not risk burning logs rolling out when you open the doors to refill. A popular feature here is the top opening - pop it open and toss another log on the fire - oh and yes you can cook some beans on the stainless cover. In this region we have very poor quality wood - mostly forest fire burnt and it is poplar and spruce but the trees here are stunted. This wood tends to burn very fast, lots of ash. The Encore has been testing at 8 to 10 hours and our customers like it because it will burn all night. People are not familiar with catalytic stoves (my first one was a Blaze King Princess in 1983) and they need to learn how to operate these stoves. They must be run on a very high burn at least once a day (in the morning when you start todays burn) for around 20 minutes to get the catalytic combustor up on step - then the stove can be dampened down to a low burn. According to our customers, the VC Encore, like the Blaze King Princess and King catalytics, burns approximately 1/3 less wood per season than a similarly sized non catalytic stove.The catalytic stoves are much more expensive, and yet, we sell almost as many catalytic stoves as non catalytic stoves, the people who know, buy catalytic . It is more than 20 below zero here for more than 6 months of the time, stoves that will burn all night are essential and so are clean burning stoves. The catalytic stoves, when being used properly, really cut down on the creasote in your chimney. No one wants to climb up on a roof in a howling wind at 40 below. I hope this helps. Good luck with your new stove.

I disagree with several items in this post.

 

[Jack768]

Thanks, both. Leaning towards the Defiant b/c it's a big room in a big, open floor plan house. Running both existing stoves at pretty high output (probably 55-60,000 BTU combined) the furnace still kicks on, and the Defiant should have a realistic output about (not turned up all the way) about equal to those two units combined. So if there's too much heat, I could likely solve the problem by running only the Defiant. Burn times are also a big deal and although the Encore seems to have good burn times, a couple of hours more is always better.

Need to go to the VC, Jotul, and PE dealer showrooms and look at the units before I can make a decision (and depending on timing, see how the further VC 2-in-1 reviews come in as some people begin burning them for a second season). Thanks for the guidance.

 

[begreen]

I would go for a large convective stove seeing that soapstone is out. My wife doesn't like soapstone either and we didn't have the clearances necessary for the Jotul F600, so we got the PE Alderlea T6. No regrets at all with this stove. My wife approves its looks and flexibility. I like the room a big firebox gives you and I like the hours of residual heat given off after the fire has died down. Another convective stove like this would be the Napoleon 1900. In the Jotul line a slightly smaller equivalent would be the new Rangeley model with the cast iron jacket.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I would go for a large convective stove seeing that soapstone is out. My wife doesn't like soapstone either and we didn't have the clearances necessary for the Jotul F600, so we got the PE Alderlea T6. No regrets at all with this stove. My wife approves its looks and flexibility. I like the room a big firebox gives you and I like the hours of residual heat given off after the fire has died down. Another convective stove like this would be the Napoleon 1900. In the Jotul line a slightly smaller equivalent would be the new Rangeley model with the cast iron jacket.

I believe the T6 has better clearances than the VC stoves, as well.

 

[ddddddden]

The VC 2n1 reports last season were decent, but I have the impression that it's not really optimized to run as a cat stove, with ~ 10hrs max burn time. I'm guessing that a BK's looks would relegate it to the basement, but have you looked at the Chinook? No pretty castings, but not as 'unique' looking as the King/Princess, perhaps the Chinook could sneak in there and give you the long burns you seek. . .

 

[Jack768]

Thanks, Den. Would love to buy a Blaze King but it wouldn't fit the style of the room at all. Big problem with BK in the basement is it's a huge, very expensive run of Class A chimney -- three stories of the stuff. Would like to look at the Chinook but we have no BK dealers anywhere near me, which both makes it complicated to get a dealer install and also means there's no nearby dealer who can service any issues that come up.