The solution to the "Basement Stove Problem"

[dave11]

I think I've got this worked out. This AM I drove 90 miles to borrow my dad's draft gauge. Built another fire, and about 20 minutes into it, the draft measured .07 inches of water, above the flue collar. The Englander design is for .06 to .08 inches of water, so it's pretty clear now that the draft is not the problem.

This fire I built like an inverted V, with the pieces pointing toward the middle of the back wall of the stove.Initially, fire burning great with door cracked, subdued with door sealed. Temps 450-500 like yesterday. At this point, there were 4 splits in the box, each about 4 inches diameter. On a whim, I decided to fill up the firebox. Put in 4 more splits, still in an inverted V (roughly).

It took off. Fire was so big I had to seal the door. Temps now around 550. But no secondary burn.

So I started to slowly close the air inlet. About half-way in, massive secondary burn appeared. Stove temps 550-600. Temp at pipe entering wall 310-320 by IR gun.

No problems after that. Withe air inlet mostly open, no smoke seen at the chimney. With air inlet fully closed though, slight white smoke. I think that is normal?

So in the end, the problem appears to have been not due to wet wood or poor draft. It was either the geometry of the fire I was building, or that it wasn't large enough a fire--not too cold, just too small.

But I learned a lot troubleshooting this problem. Thanks to all who contributed.

 

[Jags]

Whoooo Hooooo! Sounds like you are off to the races. You kinda hit on why I was asking about secondary flames in the previous thread. I love a good ending.

 

[PunKid8888]

Ohh man, I get no love?

Last thing to try might go against everything you think, but try running half throttle once you have established a fire for a while at full throttle and can’t seem to get the temps to climb anymore. I have the little brother to that stove and I rare instances if conditions are correct that the stove will burn and burn but can’t seam to get above the 300F mark (stove top). I then turn down the throttle and after a few minutes the fire starts to intensify and the temp starts climbing eventually taking off where I need to turn it down almost all the way to stabilize between 500F and 550F. I think its either related to the air velocity entering the fire box (restricting = more velocity) or maybe too much air to the secondary’s causing it too keep the top of the firebox too cold before secondary combustion can start.

from the other thread https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/43414/P22/

Well I glad you got it figured out

 

[dave11]

Whoooo Hooooo! Sounds like you are off to the races. You kinda hit on why I was asking about secondary flames in the previous thread. I love a good ending.

Thanks for your help man!

I guess now I've graduated from "Clueless" to "Somewhat Inexperienced."

 

[dave11]

Ohh man, I get no love?

Last thing to try might go against everything you think, but try running half throttle once you have established a fire for a while at full throttle and can’t seem to get the temps to climb anymore. I have the little brother to that stove and I rare instances if conditions are correct that the stove will burn and burn but can’t seam to get above the 300F mark (stove top). I then turn down the throttle and after a few minutes the fire starts to intensify and the temp starts climbing eventually taking off where I need to turn it down almost all the way to stabilize between 500F and 550F. I think its either related to the air velocity entering the fire box (restricting = more velocity) or maybe too much air to the secondary’s causing it too keep the top of the firebox too cold before secondary combustion can start.

from the other thread https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/43414/P22/

Well I glad you got it figured out

PunKid--you've got all my love. I lost track of all the different suggestions people had, and it seems like I wasn't going to get anywhere till I proved to folks that the draft was okay. So that was my mission today.

Closing the air did give me the secondary burn, but the root problem I'm convinced now was that I just wasn't making the fire big enough. The heat output was okay, but I think the total amount of wood burning wasn't enough to overcome the stove's inherent restriction of draft. Because the smaller fires seemed choked when I closed the door.

Love ya man....

 

[billb3]

Sounds a bit fickle to me, but BB has described some his N/S - E/W loading variation/observations before with his 30 and these stoves do seem to have a 'sweet spot'.

Home Depot here finally has a 30 on display (have only had 13s on the floor before) . That's a huge cavern of a fire box.

 

[Rockey]

Glad you got it figured out. FYI My Englander emits white smoke from the chimney when ti runs. My chimney has two flues in it and when i am burning the insert and the Englander at the same time with wood form the same stack the Englander always has white smoke coming from it. Why????

 

[dave11]

Sounds a bit fickle to me, but BB has described some his N/S - E/W loading variation/observations before with his 30 and these stoves do seem to have a 'sweet spot'.

Home Depot here finally has a 30 on display (have only had 13s on the floor before) . That's a huge cavern of a fire box.

I agree on the "fickle" part, especially for a greenhorn like me, but hopefully it will continue to work out.

I agree about the size of the firebox. I guess that should have been my clue to build a great big fire in it.

 

[BrotherBart]

Glad you got it figured out. FYI My Englander emits white smoke from the chimney when ti runs. My chimney has two flues in it and when i am burning the insert and the Englander at the same time with wood form the same stack the Englander always has white smoke coming from it. Why????

If it disappears within twenty or so feet after it comes out of the chimney it is just steam from humidity getting sucked out of the basement combined with the little bit of moisture in the wood. Mine burns clear in the daylight but has a little cloud of steam that you can see at night.

 

[pen]

sweet mother of .......

I was pulling my hair out. KNew it had to be simple. Really glad you found it.

Wait till it's 0 or less and you build your first good fire on a hot bed of coals. Look out!

pen

 

[savageactor7]

It's good to hear you figured it out dave.

 

[dave11]

Thanks again to everybody.....

 

[Backwoods Savage]

dave, it matters not who suggested what or even how you found the solution. The main thing is you found the solution after your persistence in trying, trying and trying and asking, asking and asking. Methinks many of us learned something on this one.

Congratulations and now may this thing keep you well warmed all winter long.

 

[dave11]

dave, it matters not who suggested what or even how you found the solution. The main thing is you found the solution after your persistence in trying, trying and trying and asking, asking and asking. Methinks many of us learned something on this one.

Congratulations and now may this thing keep you well warmed all winter long.

Thanks Dennis. You guys (and girls) all rock...

 

[dave11]

sweet mother of .......

I was pulling my hair out. KNew it had to be simple. Really glad you found it.

Wait till it's 0 or less and you build your first good fire on a hot bed of coals. Look out!

pen

Thanks Pen. That vid you posted about secondary burn really opened my eyes.

 

[BrotherBart]

Just wait until it goes thermonuclear.

 

[dave11]

Just wait until it goes thermonuclear.

Thanks to you as well BB.

 

[deck2]

Just wait until it goes thermonuclear.

Englander should use that term in the manual or better yet as a new marketing campaign!

 

[dave11]

Just wait until it goes thermonuclear.

Englander should use that term in the manual or better yet as a new marketing campaign!

Actually, the manual I got doesn't even mention secondary burn, or what it means or why it's important. I guess they assume everyone already knows, which is probably not a good thing.

 

[Pagey]

That's one thing about these larger EPA stoves: it can be difficult to build smaller fires. I've noticed the same thing with my grandmother's Liberty. These newer stoves really like a fuller, hotter fire box to achieve that secondary light off and, thus, clean burning. Shoulder season can be irritating. *sigh*

 

[BrotherBart]

Just wait until it goes thermonuclear.

Englander should use that term in the manual or better yet as a new marketing campaign!

Actually, the manual I got doesn't even mention secondary burn, or what it means or why it's important. I guess they assume everyone already knows, which is probably not a good thing.

Secondary combustion occurs even without the gas jet light show up top. Just burn the stove like a fireplace and you will see the flames licking up at the baffle and the stray gases combusting as the secondary air is mixed with them. I call the gas jet show a parlor trick. One that makes settling the burn in more difficult. I quit that stuff after the first season of playing with it. And the stove burns nice and long and clean without it. Better looking fire also with no wild spikes up to 700+ and then crashing back down too soon eating wood like popcorn along the way.