Torn on which of these 2 stoves to purchase

[webby3650]

Do you think it's the bypass that's helping start the wood and nothing to do with the fact it's a cat stove?

I do believe its the design of the stove.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I do have a top load, down draft stove with after burn and I can tell you from first hand experience you do not get the "light show" once the after burn is kicked in.
Just thought I would throw that out there as the wife was not happy she could not see flames all the time.

I guess it depends on other factors.
I get great light shows after the AB kicks in. Could be cuz i burn mostly pine. Better light shows than my burn tube stoves for sure. That huge front door glass helps. The TL-300 northern light show is one of the stoves best features IMO.

 

[rideau]

A larger cat stove will easily give you a 10-12 hour overnight burn.

Cat stoves do burn with lower flue temps...the flue temp drops as the cat becomes active. The cat burns smoke at 500 degrees, versus a non-cat at 1000 degrees, so a lot of potential heat is not lost up the chimney, but rather burned to heat the home. Because of its ability to burn more of the potential BTUs in wood, and to burn them early in the burn cycle, you get a more steady heat over the length of the fire. You also get more heat from less wood, in significant enough quantity to reduce firewood needs.

A catalytic combustor is designed to be replaced after about five years. It is as easy to replace as a furnace filter...just slips out and a new one slips in. It is not very expensive, and certainly pays for itself in decreased firewood use over its life.

The Woodstock PH has been specifically tested with wet wood and was found to burn just fine with it. The test is available on their site if you are interested in looking at it.

The Woodstock PH has fantastic light show. Again, you can see this on their website, or on various threads here, and on you tube.
It is also a very handsome stove, an addition to a room.

A soapstone stove will radiate heat very evenly for many hours. You might consider a factory rebuilt Woodstock Progress Hybrid as well for your situation. The factory rebuilt Woodstocks are as good as new, and significantly less expensive. It is a hybrid stove, and significantly more miserly in wood usage than even a cat stove. Gives easy 12 hour burns.

I know Alforit found the PH unsatisfactory, but he is the only person I know who had the problems he had. Most of us love the stoves and have been very happy with them, and with Woodstock. I have never taken anywhere near the 1 1/2 hrs. he mentions to get a fire going. On a hot coal bed, my fire is going before the door is closed, and cat reengaged very quickly. On a cold start, which does not happen very often outside of shoulder season, half hour is probably normal for a fully burning fire that does not have to be further attended until reload time.

Just suggesting it is worth considering this stove for your set up, if you have not yet done so.

 

[7acres]

That Progress Hybrid is beautiful! And with 12-14hr burn times they are awesome performers. Nice large firebox too. The retail pricing is out of our price range though. I looked all around the WoodStove.com website for the "factory rebuilt Woodstock Progress Hybrid" information and I must have missed it. Where are those details found? And can you share the general price range of a rebuilt PH?

A larger cat stove will easily give you a 10-12 hour overnight burn.

Cat stoves do burn with lower flue temps...the flue temp drops as the cat becomes active. The cat burns smoke at 500 degrees, versus a non-cat at 1000 degrees, so a lot of potential heat is not lost up the chimney, but rather burned to heat the home. Because of its ability to burn more of the potential BTUs in wood, and to burn them early in the burn cycle, you get a more steady heat over the length of the fire. You also get more heat from less wood, in significant enough quantity to reduce firewood needs.

A catalytic combustor is designed to be replaced after about five years. It is as easy to replace as a furnace filter...just slips out and a new one slips in. It is not very expensive, and certainly pays for itself in decreased firewood use over its life.

The Woodstock PH has been specifically tested with wet wood and was found to burn just fine with it. The test is available on their site if you are interested in looking at it.

The Woodstock PH has fantastic light show. Again, you can see this on their website, or on various threads here, and on you tube.
It is also a very handsome stove, an addition to a room.

A soapstone stove will radiate heat very evenly for many hours. You might consider a factory rebuilt Woodstock Progress Hybrid as well for your situation. The factory rebuilt Woodstocks are as good as new, and significantly less expensive. It is a hybrid stove, and significantly more miserly in wood usage than even a cat stove. Gives easy 12 hour burns.

I know Alforit found the PH unsatisfactory, but he is the only person I know who had the problems he had. Most of us love the stoves and have been very happy with them, and with Woodstock. I have never taken anywhere near the 1 1/2 hrs. he mentions to get a fire going. On a hot coal bed, my fire is going before the door is closed, and cat reengaged very quickly. On a cold start, which does not happen very often outside of shoulder season, half hour is probably normal for a fully burning fire that does not have to be further attended until reload time.

Just suggesting it is worth considering this stove for your set up, if you have not yet done so.

 

[webby3650]

Sorry to get off topic here. I can't understand how they have enough "rebuilt" stoves available to even market them. This is a pretty new stove to the scene and from what I hear, they make a good product. If they are so awesome, why all the refurbished units for sale? I just find it a little odd.

 

[7acres]

I called with several questions and I asked about this. They have a 6 month hassle free return policy. They'll even pay return shipping. And when people opt to return their unit Woodstock refurbs them and sell as such.

Sorry to get off topic here. I can't understand how they have enough "rebuilt" stoves available to even market them. This is a pretty new stove to the scene and from what I hear, they make a good product. If they are so awesome, why all the refurbished units for sale? I just find it a little odd.

 

[webby3650]

I called with several questions and I asked about this. They have a 6 month hassle free return policy. They'll even pay return shipping. And when people opt to return their unit Woodstock refurbs them and sell as such.

But why would so many people return them? I don't get it.

 

[7acres]

From what I have learned the PH is a fairly newly introduced stove model. When it first came out and feedback came in from the purchasers they decided to make a few design changes. You could send your stove back and they'd upgrade your model with the improvements if you elected to take that route. By now the production model incorporates all the improvements. So I guess it had been a work in progress to some degree. Probably less so now.

But why would so many people return them? I don't get it.

 

[Ashful]

Hi 7Acres. I am researching wood stoves also and came upon your post. What I've learned so far (whether others agree or not): is that a non-catalytic wood stove is usually easier to start for most newbies. A bucket & shovel is as good or better than most ash pans because alot of those ash pans don't self-cover and ashes spew or you have to remove a plug from under the firebox for the ashes to dump into the pan. A mostly square floor for your firebox is preferable so that when you stock it with logs you can cross them rather than having them all in one direction where they can roll against the glass in the door. You don't want a top loader because when you open it you can get smoke in your face, etc.

You have come to a few correct conclusions, but there is also some wrong information, here. Namely, top load stoves do NOT usually spill smoke when you open the top door. In fact, just the opposite: the top door becomes the primary air intake, when opened. I can open the top door on either of mys toves at any point during the burn, and never spill smoke, because it's a well-designed stove with adequate draft. Any reports you've seen of top-loading stoves spilling smoke are likely from those with exceedingly poor draft, likely experiencing other problems with their rig.

Also, past the initial kindling / small start-up load, it is usually not advisable to criss-cross the splits when loading. In general, when stuffing a non-cat stove with a full load, you want all the splits running the same way, and minimal air space between them. Criss-crossing splits in a large load may result in a run-away condition, particularly in a non-cat stove. I think you had maybe seen posts discussing NS vs. EW loading, and statements that loading NS helps to protect the glass, which is generally true.

Can you run a Blaze King cooler than a PE or Jotul without it dying out? I guess that's how BK gets 30hr burn times, right? They're able to sustain a clean burn with much lower fuel consumption than a non-cat can?

I didn't read all replies to this thread, so forgive if this has been already stated, but there have been a few southerners who've had issues with getting the low burn rates for which catalytic stoves are so adored, due to poor draft conditions. These poor draft conditions are generally the result of too-short chimneys in a too-warm climate. If you have a taller chimney, this may not be a concern for you, but I figured it was worth mentioning as a factor to consider.

To answer your question, a catalytic stove can achieve a longer burn time because the EPA allows the manufacturers of catalytic stoves to a wider range of primary air supply control than they will allow on a non-cat stove. In essence, a catalytic stove's air supply can be shut down much tighter than is possible with a non-cat stove. This is permitted because a catalytic stove can maintain clean re-burn at a much lower (500F vs. 1100F) temperature, with less fuel (wood gas) thru the reburn system.

 

[Charles1981]

I missed that comment about top loaders..

My VC Encore has a top-loading plate and never spills smoke when opened (unless you make the mistake of opening it with the bypass closed) but never reloading. Actually the only time i get smoke spillage on reload is if I am trying to stuff a 22 inch piece in the front doors (If I don't creep the front doors open very slowly it will suck smoke out with draw from the opening).

That being said, My stove on occasion back puffs...so far no smoke leakage but if the back-puffing is ever strong enough it has been known to push the top-loading door open enough to belch smoke out. There are many threads from owners of top-loaders that have draft problems and back-puffing has resulted in smoke leakage out the top loading plate at time.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

What needs to be stressed with the cat stoves is although you can get long burns ,there is not a tremendous amount of heat coming off the stove when its dialed back all the way.
One member compared it to about as much heat as an electric room heater.That may come up short on a cold day. If your house has i big heat loss you may not be able to run it down so far, thus the burn time will be noticeably shorter.

 

[Charles1981]

What needs to be stressed with the cat stoves is although you can get long burns ,there is not a tremendous amount of heat coming off the stove when its dialed back all the way.
One member compared it to about as much heat as an electric room heater.That may come up short on a cold day. If your house has i big heat loss you may not be able to run it down so far, thus the burn time will be noticeably shorter.

Strongly disagree with #1 "not a tremendous amount of heat" #2 "comparable to an electric room heater" and #3 "come up short on a cold day".

Live in Michigan, I have a mid-sized stove, not the most tight house, and find none of those statements to come close to applying to my setup and that is even with heating from the basement. When it is zero degrees and below however the only thing I wish I had was a bigger stove (3.5-4 cubic feet) and would still want a cat stove.

It is 25 degrees outside and with the stove closed all the way it is 90 in the stove room and 73 upstairs.

When it is 10-15 I can still keep the stove closed all the way and the stove room is 85 and upstairs about 68-69.

When it is -10 however the stove room stays around 85 but upstairs drops to about 64-65. And the stove stays about half open reducing burn times from about 8-9 hours to 6 hours or so.

The only thing that would help would be a bigger stove (not a non-cat stove).

 

[tarzan]

For me, the ability to dial it back was the reason I suggested the op look into cat stoves. Living in SC the versatility of a cat stove would seem ideal.

 

[7acres]

I am glad you did! While I'm certainly open to them now I find I'm really interested in some of the new hybrid stoves. Light show plus long burn times. Not BK long; but plenty long enough for sleeping in while the stove is still going.

For me, the ability to dial it back was the reason I suggested the op look into cat stoves. Living in SC the versatility of a cat stove would seem ideal.

 

[tfdchief]

Wow, all this talk intrigues me, I have read many threads about long burns and cat vs secondary re burn stoves. And I understand the desire to get long burns, but for me, heat, comfort has always what has driven me. I burn my stoves in whatever cycles, fast, slow, medium, whatever it takes to stay comfortable. When it isn't to cold, I get long burns because I dial my stoves down, but when it is cold, I fire them up and may only get 4 hours. Don't really care.....the temp in the house is what drives me and my stoves. My new little Hampton I put in the kitchen only claims 6 hour burns. I can get 10 or more out of it when it isn't to cold. But when it is cold, I don't worry about more than 4. Well anyway.....just one old timer who has stayed warm for 40 years and enjoyed it all.

 

[jeff_t]

Wow, all this talk intrigues me, I have read many threads about long burns and cat vs secondary re burn stoves. And I understand the desire to get long burns, but for me, heat, comfort has always what has driven me. I burn my stoves in whatever cycles, fast, slow, medium, whatever it takes to stay comfortable. When it isn't to cold, I get long burns because I dial my stoves down, but when it is cold, I fire them up and may only get 4 hours. Don't really care.....the temp in the house is what drives me and my stoves. My new little Hampton I put in the kitchen only claims 6 hour burns. I can get 10 or more out of it when it isn't to cold. But when it is cold, I don't worry about more than 4. Well anyway.....just one old timer who has stayed warm for 40 years and enjoyed it all.

For some, it is about convenience. If I had nothing else to do, I would be bored with this Blaze King, but twelve and twenty four hour reloads fit our life at the moment.

 

[tfdchief]

For some, it is about convenience. If I had nothing else to do, I would be bored with this Blaze King, but twelve and twenty four hour reloads fit our life at the moment.

And I understand that completely. It really is about "what works for you" Sometimes I do envy you Blaze King guys But I am close to retirement, I think, and so I need something to keep me occupied What the hell am I going to do in retirement between 12 and 24?

 

[Woody Stover]

Ash pan: The ash dump hole in the floor of the stove, like the Buck 91 I run, isn't as easy to use as a system with a grate in the bottom of the firebox like my Keystone. When you shovel out ashes (and hot coals) you have to deal with them immediately; With an ash pan, dump 'em down multiple times and remove at your leisure. It's gonna be hard to shovel them out without losing dust into the room, when draft is not strong as will often be the case in a warm climate (draft depends on chimney height, too.)

Cat stove: I can run the stove with some flame in the box if I want, but like tfdchief said above, room temp is what drives me...I don't sit around looking at the stove much. The ability of the cat to run long and low is nice to have where I live, and SC is warmer still. You don't want to be messing with a bunch of small fires, just so you don't roast yourself out of the house with a full load in a non-cat. You could always open the windows, of course.... Don't get too big a stove. If you have to run a little back-up heat on the rare cold nights, so be it. A lot will depend on the layout of your home, and how well insulated and tightly sealed it is.

Stacked Oak: Even though that was dead standing wood, don't expect big splits of Oak to dry enough to burn well by next fall...it's the slowest-drying wood. I would only bank on Oak that's already around 20% moisture content. Branches will be drier than trunks when you drop the tree. Get a cheap moisture meter at Lowe's or Harbor Freight to help you until you can judge the dryness of wood by how heavy it feels, etc, and separate the wood into stacks for this coming winter, and stacks for subsequent years. Stack your wood in single rows if you have the room, so that the wind can work on your stacks more effectively. ASAP, lay in a supply of quick-drying wood like soft Maple, Black Cherry or dead standing White Ash (which starts drier than dead Oak) as insurance for next season, and don't split it any bigger than medium.

Good luck, and welcome to the forums.

 

[Ashful]

What needs to be stressed with the cat stoves is although you can get long burns ,there is not a tremendous amount of heat coming off the stove when its dialed back all the way.
One member compared it to about as much heat as an electric room heater.That may come up short on a cold day. If your house has i big heat loss you may not be able to run it down so far, thus the burn time will be noticeably shorter.

This is all 100% true, but should not be taken in the wrong way. Yes, you can dial some cat stoves way back to the point where they're putting off less BTU's than an electric space heater. But, you can also run them full inferno, and get every bit as much heat coming off them as any non-cat. The beauty of the cat stove is the wider range of heat output.

My old cat stoves are certainly not the greatest ever made, but I can set them anywhere between 350F stovetop and full melt-down, in any part of the burn cycle on a full load. The non-cat guys will have to give the details on what their range of controllable stovetop temps are, but I seem to always hear them quote numbers above 600F in the first third or half of the burn cycle.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Strongly disagree with #1 "not a tremendous amount of heat"

What are the stovetop temps dialed all the way back? Not knocking cat stoves at all .very impressive burn times,but is there a trade off to that long burn?
If your getting a 40 hour burn with 40 Lb s of wood for example at about 7000 BTU per pound ,your getting about 7000 BTUs per hour. 50 lbs would improve that somewhat if you could get that much wood in the stove. Am i missing something?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The non-cat guys will have to give the details on what their range of controllable stovetop temps are, but I seem to always hear them quote numbers above 600F in the first third or half of the burn cycle.

What are the burn times at a 600 Deg stovetop for a cat stove? Is it similar or much longer than a non-cat?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

The beauty of the cat stove is the wider range of heat output.
.

I agree. I can only dial my harman back to about 15000-20000 BTUs (guessing) So while its great for cold days its a little harder to control on milder days.

 

[alforit]

What are the burn times at a 600 Deg stovetop for a cat stove? Is it similar or much longer than a non-cat?

Its hard to compare, Seasoned Oak.
A 600 degree stove top on a Blaze King is different than a 600 degree stove top on a non-cat.......For starters , the BK top temp is centered around where the cat is and not the sides front and the whole firebox like a non-cat is. So your heat is dispersed differently. And heat is added to by the cat which slows the burn down which brings more of the heat into the room which would normally go up the flue.

Two different technologies ......I have had both non-cat , hybrid and cat stoves and I can tell you they all get the job done when its cold......The cat stoves just have a wider range of burn choice and control which is really nice when temps aren't so cold. Also I get a longer burn on a cat stove when its cold than a non-cat . Even though that burn time is shorter on the cat stove than it would be in the shoulder season. Hybrid gets a bit longer burn time than the non-cat , but not as long as a BK.

 

[Ashful]

What are the burn times at a 600 Deg stovetop for a cat stove? Is it similar or much longer than a non-cat?

That comes down to the efficiency of the stoves being compared. Cat stoves are generally more efficient, so they can produce more BTUs at a lower rate of consumption = longer burn times at same temp. Whether or not that temp is measured on the "top" of the stove is a matter of stove arrangement.

 

[stovelark]

All this stuff will give you a headache. Either the Jotul or PE will do you well. The most important aspect still is chimney draft and good seasoned wood. Provide that and the stove will do the rest. Good luck, wished I was in SC, most of us Northern folkis ready for some warmer weather.