vermont castings defiant II themostat

[fraxinus]

The original owners' manual for the Defiant advised keeping the "thumb hole" completely open all the time. I'm glad both of you have solved your problems with the thermostatic control, but I'd be very sure to check your chimneys for creosote build up. With the damper closed, the thermostat closed all the way to start and the thumb hole only partially open, the fire is getting very little oxygen. If the wood is not very dry, the conditions are perfect for creosote formation.

There is another rather exciting thing that can happen. If the wood smolders excessively overnight and oxygen suddenly enters through the loading door or some other place, you can produce ignition strong enough to blow the griddle plate straight up in the air whereupon it will drop into the now raging fire below.

I don't at all mean to be discouraging. The Defiants were/are great stoves. You'll probably not encounter either of these problems, but forewarned is, as they say, forearmed.

 

[fraxinus]

The original owners' manual for the Defiant advised keeping the "thumb hole" completely open all the time. I'm glad both of you have solved your problems with the thermostatic control, but I'd be very sure to check your chimneys for creosote build up. With the damper closed, the thermostat closed all the way to start and the thumb hole only partially open, the fire is getting very little oxygen. If the wood is not very dry, the conditions are perfect for creosote formation.

There is another rather exciting thing that can happen. If the wood smolders excessively overnight and oxygen suddenly enters through the loading door or some other place, you can produce ignition strong enough to blow the griddle plate straight up in the air whereupon it will drop into the now raging fire below.

I don't at all mean to be discouraging. The Defiants were/are great stoves. You'll probably not encounter either of these problems, but forewarned is, as they say, forearmed.

 

[fraxinus]

The original owners' manual for the Defiant advised keeping the "thumb hole" completely open all the time. I'm glad both of you have solved your problems with the thermostatic control, but I'd be very sure to check your chimneys for creosote build up. With the damper closed, the thermostat closed all the way to start and the thumb hole only partially open, the fire is getting very little oxygen. If the wood is not very dry, the conditions are perfect for creosote formation.

There is another rather exciting thing that can happen. If the wood smolders excessively overnight and oxygen suddenly enters through the loading door or some other place, you can produce ignition strong enough to blow the griddle plate straight up in the air whereupon it will drop into the now raging fire below.

I don't at all mean to be discouraging. The Defiants were/are great stoves. You'll probably not encounter either of these problems, but forewarned is, as they say, forearmed.

 

[fraxinus]

Apologies for the tripled message. No idea what happened.

 

[gizmos]

On the resolute, we have always had the thumb hole closed 1/4 to 1/2.
Made the adjustments for gas pedal to work the best. Never had a problem.

 

[mywaynow]

Ok, I finally remembered the thermostat today. I have the Rutland magnetic with the 3 ranges; Creosote, Burn Range, Overheat. Terms may not be exact, but you get the drift. I have it about 6 inches up the vertical pipe that exits the stove. So far, I have not seen a timp over 400. When I checked to the temp based on the settings I was running over the last couple days, it was barely over 300, showing borderline creosote vs. burn range. I have adjusted the thermostat to alow more air intake and now have the lower end of the burn range as a normal level. Am I burning to cold??? The level it is at is working fine to keep the house over 70 degrees. I am using about a wheel barrow load a day. Mostly oak, and dried over 18 months.

 

[fraxinus]

mywaynow: 6 inches up on the stove pipe is lower than usually recommended - 18 to 24" would be more like it. Since your thermometer is closer to the stove, your readings are likely misleading - hotter than they would be higher up. The second issue is the oak. In my experience, oak takes longer to dry than any other species and has the potential to produce a great deal of creosote. I'd suggest keeping a close eye on the chimney for creosote build up. Everything may well be fine, but do check.

 

[mywaynow]

Frax- You think the oak could still be moist after being split, stacked and covered for over a year? The thermostat instructions were to place on vertical pipe 6 inches up??

 

[fraxinus]

If the thermometer has been calibrated for 6" up, then it should be accurate. If you move it up to 18", it would be intesting to see what it then indicates. I do think that 300 degrees 6" from the stove is a little too cool. What does it read when the stove is in the updraft mode? What does the inside of the stove look like? If the interior of the loading door looks pretty clean, all is well. If it's covered with deposits, that's usually a pretty good indication of too little air.

There are many factors involved in drying any wood species. If you have relatively warm summers with low humidity and a good bit of wind, split oak stacked with plenty of air space and good exposure to the sun would probably be fine after a year and a half. A moisture meter is the only sure way to tell, though. If it sizzles and gives off a lot of moisture when you add it to the fire, it still has a high water content. You can burn it, but it will need a higher temperature within the stove and chimney to avoid creosote deposits. An hour or two a day with the Defiant in the updraft mode will help a lot in keeping the chimney clean. Keep an eye on the thermometer to avoid too much heat. Check the chimney with a mirror from the clean out door.

 

[woodlot]

Fraxinus.. The stove thermometer I have is a condor,the guy I bought the stove from gave it to me.I have it placed in the center of the stove on the griddle plate.I took the advice from an earlier reply and after loading I leave the damper open until the stove gets to 550 or 600 degrees,then i close the damper then the temp. drops to between 400 and 450.As the stove burns it edges back up to around 500,but I think the average temp. is 425.Should I have this thermometer on the stove pipe?The thermostat seems to be working fine,after reading mywaynows reply I am wondering if I am also burning to cold,I am burning good dry ash, oak and hickory that has been drying for almost two years.I let the stove go out last weekend and inspected the stove pipe and chimney,I found a decent amount of creosote in the stove pipe and some also in the chimney.I always cleaned my own chimney back in the 80s and will continue to do so.I cleaned it, then started it back up,at this point I am disappointed and a little confused with my defiant II.The burn time I am getting is only about six hours on a good load of wood,that leaves me with enough embers to reload.I always got in the habit of burning any wood stove open in the updraft mode for at least an hour each day.I made a visit to the local stove shop, this shop sells vermont castings stoves plus many other brands.These guys seem to be knowledgeable,the one salesperson knows alot about these defiants,he told me he burned one for some time years ago and joked that they make creosote sitting idle in the summer.I did not find that very funny however,as I am still trying to make this stove work.Like everyone else who burns wood I am very concerned about creosote.This is my first year back burning wood since around 1998,since I have access to firewood I will continue to burn wood going forward,should I consider another stove after this winter.I always wanted a Defiant,found one In excellent shape but I am concerned with its performance.Again any advice would be welcome.......

 

[fraxinus]

logroad: Back toward the beginning of this thread, BeGreen gave 550 degrees as a pretty normal stove top temperature for the Defiant. I would agree that 500 to 550 is about right. If you get to this temp in the updraft mode, but can't maintain somewhere near this range with the damper closed and the thermostat control open, I'd suspect clogging with fine ash between the fireback and the rear most casting. If you've already checked that area and it's clear, I'm at a loss. Your wood, especially the ash, should be fine.

This stove will produce creosote. If it's any help, when I was putting 8 cords a winter through mine, the sweep would remove 4 to 5 gallons of loose flaky creosote at the annual cleaning. Never was there any problem at all with the more dangerous and hard to remove stuff that looks like baked on coal.

 

[woodlot]

Fraxinus.Thanks again for all the good info regarding my defiant II,I realize now that this stove needs to be run pretty hot to avoid the creosote,pretty hot meaning 400 to 550 temps.That is not a bad thing,it keeps our 2400 sq. ft.house pretty warm,I do wish though that we would get more burn time,we average seven and a half hours on a full load.This stove holds a decent amount of wood,which means I go through a lot of wood.I think you said you ran eight cords a season through your defiant.How do you like your Jotul f 600 firelight cb ? I was looking at that same stove at the woodstove shop,do you get a longer burn time and use less wood compared to your defiant.Thanks..

 

[fraxinus]

logroad: I have nothing bad to say about my old Defiant. It was a great stove for more than 30 years and I never really thought I would have a different one. BeGreen got me thinking about the advantages of an EPA stove and then the tax credit came along...

I have to say the Jotul has more than lived up to everything BeGreen wrote about more modern stoves. I'm only in the second winter, but my wood consumption has decreased by at least a third (probably more, but last winter was so mild it was not a fair test). I never thought I would care much one way or the other about glass doors, but I've become a total addict. Ash removal is easier than with the Defiant, if more frequent. As far as heat output is concerned, the Firelight produces more heat from less wood for sure. The one thing I miss about the Defiant is the thermostat. This is not a huge issue, but the lack of a self-regulating feature on the Jotul seems to me to be an oversight on the part of the manufacturer.

One thing to keep in mind is wood dryness. The Defiants were able to deal with less than optimally seasoned wood because they had a very powerful draft plus an 8" flue. (That's also why they consume wood at a pretty fast rate). The Jotul really needs very dry wood to perform at its best. I'm using 100% kiln dried wood this winter. From coals to 500 degree surface temperature in 15 to 20 minutes each morning. Last year with pretty well naturally seasoned wood, it was more like 45 minutes and needed much more in the way of tinkering.

The Jotul is well made by a company that has been in business for a century and a half. I don't know if it will last for another 30 years like the Defiant, but neither will I.

 

[defiant3]

Logroad, just for fun, what does your thermometer read when the stove is COLD? In other words, does it read room temp accurately? How many times have I been to a customers house and found their thermo saya it's like 10 below zero in the room? Or 150? Also I know how this will sound after all you"ve heard, but who cares what the stove top temp is? It's the chimney that matters. What's happening in the chimney. I went to Vermont Castings stove school for the first time in 1983, have been servicing these things in northern New England since then, and I heat MY house with a defiant II and guess where my thermo is? And I get a new one about every other year. 5 cords a year, one sweeping. Sorry , not to blow my horn, but many a legend has grown up around the Defiant. It IS a great stove, but not always.

 

[woodlot]

Defiant3,That is a good question about temp. when the stove is cold,as I said earlier I got my stove thermometer from the guy I bought the stove from, it is a condor and Iam guessing it is fairly old.I will do as you said you do and replace it,they are not that costly.The only one i have seen is the rutland,do you recommend that thermometer and where on the stove pipe should i put it.Everyone has told me to let the stove top reach 500 to 550 after loading before closing the damper,this definitely was good advice in that the creosote is greatly reduced and I am now getting to horizontal burn more easily.As fraxinus said, the thermostat is a huge asset on these stoves.Obviously you Know the ins and outs of these defiants after dealing with them for so long, if I was not in Pennsylvania I would pay you for a service call and a quick stove [defiant] lesson.If you have any other thoughts or tips I would appreciate them.Thanks.

 

[defiant3]

PA is a long way. From here, we consider Connecticut to be the deep south... Anyway, you've gotten good info from many sources, and at this point perhaps you've already figured out that every stove/chimney system is different and all this stuff amounts to just guidelines for operation. Even the thermometers and stuff don't read all that accurately. What most every other wood burner has found is that you just have to find your way, and that if the chimney stays clean, you're doin' it right. This may require constant vigilance during that first season, but at this point there's not too much to add. The stove sounds like it's tight enough for now, and the only thing I'm wondering is if it's maybe too big? One reason Def.s got a rep. as creosote factories is that they are SO big, and the tendancy is to turn them down too much. So here, a Def. should heat no less than 2000 sq.feet, but in a milder climate it may heat an entire neighborhood! Don't know if this applies here. Otherwise, 12-18" up the pipe or so for a chimney thermo., and keep an eye up the chimney. Keep us posted,and Happy Heating

 

[kksalm]

Fraxinus wrote....
The original Defiant I and Defiant II were the same except the Defiant II had a two piece fireback. In both cases, the stoves had a channel created by wire mesh and stove cement between the fireback and rear most casting. You can see this channel in schematic drawings from VC and in their rebuild manual for the Defiant. This channel was intended to direct unburned gasses back over the coals so that a rudimentary secondary burn was achieved. Problem was the mesh and stove cement arrangement tended to not last very long. The stove cement dried out and/or the arrangement was damaged in cleaning. The area between fireback and rear casting could also become clogged with fine ash when the area was not cleaned for a couple of years. Clogged or damaged, the path intended to produce secondary burn will not work as intended.

Where does one find a copy of the rebuild manual for the Defiant?

Thank you for any reply, Ken

 

[fraxinus]

The rebuild manual can be found at: http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2008/2003225_Rebuild_Defiant.pdf

 

[kksalm]

Thanks fraxinus, for your help and consideration.
Cheers! Ken