Will a stove upgrade save us money?

[rmills007]

Hello Hearth community! So glad I found this site.
I'm a newbie to wood heat so please excuse any redundant question I might ask.

Just bought a home in Oregon that came with a beautiful Vermont Castings 1977 Vigilant. We love the stove. From what I've researched, it's regarded as well-loved old workhorse. We rely on the Vigilant to heat our home 99% of time. We have a forced air furnace, but rarely use it.

We're looking seriously at any and all ways we can improve efficiency in our home and save money on heating costs. Window replacements would be the most effective improvement, (we have many, many square feet of single pane, aluminum framed windows) but it's not an affordable option at the moment. In the meantime I've begun reading about the drastic improvements in wood stove technology, and I'm beginning to think that replacing the old Vigilant with a newer more efficient wood stove might be a good way to save money.

The assumption being: More efficient stove = burn less wood = buy less wood = saving money.

It seems like a no-brainer, but I'd love to get some hearth.com expert advice on whether or not this would be a wise decision.
With both federal and state tax credits expiring at the end of the year, seems like now's the time to move on this.


Thanks!

 

[KeepItNatural]

Since you're already able to heat your home with your stove- You'd be wise to replace those windows with some that have a higher R value. Likewise, any insulating that needs to be done would be a better move than upgrading your stove first. If you replaced the stove but not the windows.... that's where all your new heat would go anyway.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Hello Hearth community! So glad I found this site.
I'm a newbie to wood heat so please excuse any redundant question I might ask.

Just bought a home in Oregon that came with a beautiful Vermont Castings 1977 Vigilant. We love the stove. From what I've researched, it's regarded as well-loved old workhorse. We rely on the Vigilant to heat our home 99% of time. We have a forced air furnace, but rarely use it.

We're looking seriously at any and all ways we can improve efficiency in our home and save money on heating costs. Window replacements would be the most effective improvement, (we have many, many square feet of single pane, aluminum framed windows) but it's not an affordable option at the moment. In the meantime I've begun reading about the drastic improvements in wood stove technology, and I'm beginning to think that replacing the old Vigilant with a newer more efficient wood stove might be a good way to save money.

The assumption being: More efficient stove = burn less wood = buy less wood = saving money.

It seems like a no-brainer, but I'd love to get some hearth.com expert advice on whether or not this would be a wise decision.
With both federal and state tax credits expiring at the end of the year, seems like now's the time to move on this.


Thanks!

How much wood do you burn per winter?

 

[moosetrek]

Take the money for the new stove, replace as many windows as that will let you. Or insulate the ceilings and put plastic on the windows. Reduced demand for heat = less wood, probably better return than a new stove. The cost savings of 50% efficiency (?) old stove vs 80% new stove are noticeable, but cutting the demand on the inefficient stove is also noticeable and probably a greater net savings. Of course, if you just want a new more efficient stove, then by all means!

Also consider that the tax rebate ends this year, I believe - so factor in the additional 30% if you put off buying the new stove til next year. On the other hand, the windows should also get 30% off so probably a wash; if a stove and windows is $3000 and you have $1000 to spend, either purchase will give you $300 back on taxes, and still leave you $2000 of work left to do.

GL-

 

[ControlFreak]

Keep in mind that the new EPA-certified stoves are a lot more sensitive to moisture content in the wood. So, if you're thinking of upgrading, you would want to first make sure that your wood is properly seasoned before you make that change. Otherwise, you'll end up hating that new stove for the first year or so, until you have your wood supply under control. If you're burning wood now that was cut this summer, then a new stove would give you grief. For wood cut this summer, you don't want to use it any sooner than NEXT winter. You want to build up your wood supply first, then buy the new stove.

 

[Renovation]

Hi Doug, and welcome!

Just as a WAG, and guessing on the high side of wood costs, even if you burn 10 cords of wood/yr at $200/cord, that's $2K/year year for wood. A new stove might save you 1/3 on wood, which would be about $700/year, and I think that's a very generous, high figure.

I'm sure you want a sweet new stove, but the economics don't justify it. You'd be much better off insulating your house--even cheap storm windows would make a big difference, and you'd reap the benefits every day in greater comfort and lower bills, new stove or not.

But if you want the new stove buy it, economics be d***ed!

BTW, the date on a stove is often the date the model was designed, *not* when it was built. Knowing nothing about the history of that model, your stove could be much newer than 1977.

Happy burning!

 

[BrowningBAR]

Hi Doug, and welcome!

Just as a WAG, and guessing on the high side of wood costs, even if you burn 10 cords of wood/yr at $200/cord, that's $2K/year year for wood. A new stove might save you 1/3 on wood, which would be about $700/year, and I think that's a very generous, high figure.

I'm sure you want a sweet new stove, but the economics don't justify it. You'd be much better off insulating your house--even cheap storm windows would make a big difference, and you'd reap the benefits every day in greater comfort and lower bills, new stove or not.

But if you want the new stove buy it, economics be d***ed!

BTW, the date on a stove is often the date the model was designed, *not* when it was built. Knowing nothing about the history of that model, your stove could be much newer than 1977.

Happy burning!

It's not much newer, I'll tell you that.

 

[Fsappo]

A newer stove will save you money on firewood and time/energy in cleaning, maintaining, etc. Its something you should do at some point. Heres the trick:

Buy a new stove now (before end of the year) and take advantage of the tax credits. You can buy a great mid sized stove for under $2000. Save the Vigilant and sell it after the first of the year. Used stoves will have a better resale value after the tax credits expire. Net net net, you can end up with a better stove with a total out of pocket expense of less than $1K.

You'll have a better experience, save money on wood and see a return on your investment in a few years. You'll also be kinder on the air quality outdoors.

 

[rmills007]

Thank you, everyone.
There's no question I came to the right place for good advice. It's all very much appreciated. You've suggested things I never would have thought of. Experience still counts for something. Thank you for sharing.

I know the windows are my biggest culprits. The only issue is they are ridiculously large (albeit amazing to look out!). I was given a quote of between $3000-$4000 to replace one window! (it measures 131" x 90"). There are 4 others in this size range. And then there are all those medium sized ones. Yes, by all means they should be upgraded and are undoubtedly the primary factor in the houses inability to retain heat. I could get a new stove now. I have the money for that. The windows are going to be a more long-term project, and will probably require a loan. Hmmm . . .

This is our first winter in the house, so we're still figuring out how to best balance wood use vs. furnace, and how much wood we may need. We've quickly realized that the cord of oak & maple we bought (seasoned @ 8 months) is only going to last us a month, rather than the throughout the winter. (I now know how foolish that assumption was).

Speaking of wood use, and efficiency . . . We usually start a fire in the evening, around 5:30pm and keep the stove packed full. Filled to capacity with oak and maple, the Vigilant will completely burn down to coals in around 2 or 3 hours. We usually have to completely refill the stove about three times before going to bed. We burn with the front and top doors closed, and the quarter sized air intake hole on the side completely open. I just discovered the small rear draft plate door while sweeping up behind the stove last week. Open that and the stove gets crazy hot (the front doors turn red!) and it devours wood. It seems like we're burning through wood really fast. Or, does this seem normal? I just ordered replacement gaskets, as it looks like they've never been changed, (very flat, and they look scorched in places) thinking that might slow down the burn rate a little.

Anyway, you've all given me wonderful food for thought. I'm not so eager to run out and invest in a new stove as I was before posting

 

[BrowningBAR]

Thank you, everyone.
There's no question I came to the right place for good advice. It's all very much appreciated. You've suggested things I never would have thought of. Experience still counts for something. Thank you for sharing.

I know the windows are my biggest culprits. The only issue is they are ridiculously large (albeit amazing to look out!). I was given a quote of between $3000-$4000 to replace one window! (it measures 131" x 90"). There are 4 others in this size range. And then there are all those medium sized ones. Yes, by all means they should be upgraded and are undoubtedly the primary factor in the houses inability to retain heat. I could get a new stove now. I have the money for that. The windows are going to be a more long-term project, and will probably require a loan. Hmmm . . .

This is our first winter in the house, so we're still figuring out how to best balance wood use vs. furnace, and how much wood we may need. We've quickly realized that the cord of oak & maple we bought (seasoned @ 8 months) is only going to last us a month, rather than the throughout the winter. (I now know how foolish that assumption was).

Speaking of wood use, and efficiency . . . We usually start a fire in the evening, around 5:30pm and keep the stove packed full. Filled to capacity with oak and maple, the Vigilant will completely burn down to coals in around 2 or 3 hours. We usually have to completely refill the stove about three times before going to bed. We burn with the front and top doors closed, and the quarter sized air intake hole on the side completely open. I just discovered the small rear draft plate door while sweeping up behind the stove last week. Open that and the stove gets crazy hot (the front doors turn red!) and it devours wood. It seems like we're burning through wood really fast. Or, does this seem normal? I just ordered replacement gaskets, as it looks like they've never been changed, (very flat, and they look scorched in places) thinking that might slow down the burn rate a little.

Anyway, you've all given me wonderful food for thought. I'm not so eager to run out and invest in a new stove as I was before posting

You really need a stove thermometer, put in new gaskets, and check the stove for leaks. A Full load of hard wood should last 5-8 hours.

 

[begreen]

Is that soft maple? It sounds like there may be some air leaks on the stove.

Still, a good service on the old VC could make a nice difference. It would be best to do this outside because it entails thoroughly blowing out the secondary passages, preferably with compressed air. Then take a strong light on the interior and check on the outside for any light leaks (best to do at night or in a dark garage). Seal up these leaks well. Then check the bypass linkage for slop and proper action. And finally, replace any gaskets that aren't sealing tightly. When running the stove, have the little secondary intake flap on the side of the stove open.

 

[rmills007]

Is that soft maple? It sounds like there may be some air leaks on the stove.
.

I'm not sure what type of maple it is to be honest. It was sold as 'hardwood' from a trusted seller. He had some mostly fir softwood cords as well - he kept them all separate.
I'm eager to see if anything changes once the gaskets are replaced. Your cleaning suggestion sounds like quite a chore (removing the stove) but I imagine it would do some real good.

Thanks!

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Whoa! A cord of oak and maple lasting only a month Perhaps you are talking about a face cord. A cord of wood is 128 cu. in. A face cord is a stack of wood usually cut to 16" length and is 4' high and 8' long. There is a big difference.

In addition, that maple might be okay depending upon what it is but I've never seen oak ready to burn in 8 months. Around these parts we always give oak 3 years after being split before it is ready to burn. And is this 8 months since it has been split or was it split just before you received it?

I wish you luck. And yes, those are some big time windows!

 

[rmills007]

Whoa! A cord of oak and maple lasting only a month Perhaps you are talking about a face cord. A cord of wood is 128 cu. in. A face cord is a stack of wood usually cut to 16" length and is 4' high and 8' long. There is a big difference.

In addition, that maple might be okay depending upon what it is but I've never seen oak ready to burn in 8 months. Around these parts we always give oak 3 years after being split before it is ready to burn. And is this 8 months since it has been split or was it split just before you received it?

I wish you luck. And yes, those are some big time windows!

Interesting. Maybe so? Once we restacked the wood (took 3 trips in loaded down Chevy S-10 to get it to our place), I'd guess it was about 4' high x 17' long. The cuts vary from approximately 12" to 22" long, most being around 16". The seller told us it had only been split about 8 months prior, and noted that it wasn't ideal. But we decided to go with it since it was his last hardwood cord.

But yes, it goes fast. We've got an old canvas army parachute bag we use to haul loads into the house. Holds about 13 pieces of wood, and we use 2-3 bag loads a night. So, 30-40 pieces of wood per night. It lasts about 11-12 hours, leaving behind a few hot coals in the morning, but nothing to write home about.

This is why I was thinking a newer, more efficient stove might be a good idea. But, I realize there are other factors involved.

 

[CALJREICH]

I'd get a new stove. Unless your house windows are 50 years old , I doubt replacing them would be better then a new stove. Are you gonna gather around a window or the stove this January?

 

[HotCoals]

Man..somethings wrong..you're going through way to much wood.

 

[rmills007]

Man..somethings wrong..you're going through way to much wood.

Yeah ... I had a feeling something wasn't right.

 

[agartner]

Lots of great suggestions - another thing you can do about the window situation is to use heavy, thick, plush curtains. Its not nearly as good as a new window, but it does help somewhat. I've never heard of anything eating wood that fast, so yeah, I'd agree with some of the other posters about giving your stove a good inspection to make sure it's nice and airtight.

 

[madison]

I thought that sometime recently someone posted that Oregon requires all resold homes to have EPA approved stoves???

Quick search, but I don't have the patience to read legal stuff, http://www.oregonfireplaces.com/oregonlaws.htm

 

[madison]

"This new Oregon law, which was called Senate Bill 102 in the 2009 Oregon Legislature, accelerates the turnover of older uncertified woodstoves and other solid fuel burning devices by requiring the removal of uncertified (non-EPA certified or non-ODEQ certified) woodstoves or wood fireplace inserts upon sale of a home."

 

[rmills007]

"This new Oregon law, which was called Senate Bill 102 in the 2009 Oregon Legislature, accelerates the turnover of older uncertified woodstoves and other solid fuel burning devices by requiring the removal of uncertified (non-EPA certified or non-ODEQ certified) woodstoves or wood fireplace inserts upon sale of a home."

I was aware of the law as it pertains to the sale of new stoves (no new sales of non-EPA certified stoves in Oregon) but I wasn't aware it required existing non-certified stoves to be removed with the sale of a home. We bought the house in February of this year - old-school Vigilant intact. Maybe the law wasn't in affect when the house was sold? Or, more likely, no one knew. ??

** EDIT ** Looks like the law took affect August 1st, 2010.

 

[flyingpig]

I'm new to wood burning too. But I feel that 30-40 pieces per 12 hours is quite a lot. This year so far I could get 7-8 hours of productive heat with 8-9 pieces to cover about 1800 sq.ft.. Grant that I live in a warmer area and now it still be a shoulder season. Also I don't have that huge windows. But you should be able to reduce the consumption quite a lot once the VC works correctly.

Another thing you may be able to do is make your home air tight. We hired the energy audit company recently to check our house and he did a blow-door + IR camera test to check the leak. But after I saw the way he fixed it with typical caulk or a can of spay foam, I think that we can do it quite easily by ourselves. Just close all the doors & windows then turn on all the ventilation fans to suck the air out of the house as much as possible. Then check on doors, windows, A/C registers, electric switches & outlets with something like smoke from scent stick for the air leak. Then fix them with caulk or spray foam. We've found that we had a lot of leaks around A/C registers & small gaps around fireplace masonry. That should be a cheap fix that give you a lot of improvement. Give it a try.

Cheers......Som

 

[HotCoals]

Just try closing the air down some.

 

[madison]

Looks like the law is enacted as of August

-- I will add this about windows, we replaced the windows on our previous home, ~ 3 yrs prior to the sale, in retrospect wished we would have done it earlier, they made a significant improvement in sound deadening, energy loss and ease of cleaning ....

 

[sesmith]

Insulation will be the biggest bang for the buck as well as sealing drafts. Especially if you have a crawlspace or attic where you can add more insulation to get it up to R30 at least, or more, you will notice an immediate improvement. New windows are nice (I've replaced all mine over the last 25 years) but you can get most of the benefit of new windows by adding interior storms made of lexan until you can afford to replace the windows. Hold the lexan in place on the interior frames with either velco or magnetic and steel tape. The big box building supply stores will cut the lexan to size for you no charge. When you do replace your windows, look at downsizing the amount of glass on the north side of the house and maximize it on the south side, if it is not shaded. Getting a handle on your heat losses will save you more wood than a new stove ever will. This is not to say that a new stove might not be a good idea especially with the tax incentives, but it sounds to me like you're just going to be heating the outdoors, without taking care of the real problem.

We've lived in the same 160 yr old small farmhouse for the last 28 years. It started out as a drafty, impossible house to heat, and now is a very easy house to heat. Insulation and draft sealing were the major helps. As I've remodeled and torn apart rooms, I've beefed up wall insulation as needed and added vapor barriers, and replaced all the windows and doors. We just recently added a lot more blown cellulose to the overhead crawlspace in the single story part of the house. This, by far, was the biggest bang for the buck. Don't know why I didn't do it years ago, except I just noticed how little was really up there when I was redoing the roof last summer. I've also built a solar air heater which does about 25% of our heating. The funny thing is I'm still using the same wood stove I put in the house in 1982. I added secondary burn tubes to it a couple of years ago, which upped it's efficiency around 10% and decreased the smoke a lot. Some day I'll probably replace it when the DEC forces me to, as it doesn't owe me a cent at this point.

So if it were me, I'd attack the worst of the heat loss problems 1st and use the tax incentives for that, so long as the stove is safe and heats the house.