need heat pump / furnace recommendation

iron · Apr 17, 2017

my furnace is on its last legs (electric). my heat pump probably doesn't have too much either (plus, SEER 10).

right now i'm in the investigation stage and would like to get recommendations from the forum here (especially @Highbeam and @begreen )

house is 2300 SF. puget sound area of WA (just north of seattle). house is decently sealed (1979 construction with significant upgrades by me). 700 SF is in the basement which is finished, air sealed and lined with 3" of foam. current rheem furnace and heat pump heat the house just fine, though the heat pump struggles when temps are near freezing (or below). indoor temps are well-balanced up and downstairs and room to room.

this past year we heated 100% with the EPA fireplace. while it's not a blazeking stove and the awesome 24/7 burn capabilities, it worked fine enough (though lots of wood). i suspect we will try to keep it as the primary heat source for at least the next 3-6 years as we're starting our family and this would take us into the kindergarten age where my wife would resume working FT. at that point, i suspect fires will either be a weekend thing or an evening thing. at that point in time, the furnace/heat pump would need to do the lifting.

the other key info (i think) is that i would like to recirc the fireplace-heated air in the house using the furnace. i know some will say this doesn't work and whatnot, but it did and does from what i've seen. since the fireplace is on the main floor, and the basement is below, my basement will be the controlling temperature in the house. i plan to relocate my thermostat down there so that area controls the temperature of the house, not the upstairs (which is always 72+ with the fireplace). so, all that is to say that even when technically heating the house 100% with the fireplace, i think we'll have a situation where the heat pump/furnace will kick on periodically to recirc the air in the house to get it down to the basement. i think all of this is important in the sense of what kind of furnace fan to get (high efficiency, multistage?)

---

so, i would love to get recommendations on the best approach here. i don't think we need top of the line, and we don't want bottom of the barrel. just something nice enough that'll last 20 years and be reasonable on efficiency. i'm a newb when it comes to HVAC and all the variables (2 stage, mini split, variable speed, yadda yadda).

thanks

begreen · Apr 17, 2017

Find local Daikin and Mitsubishi dealers. Both companies have great solutions for our area, good to below zero and with new vertical air handlers. In American units I think Carrier has one of the more efficient, central hvac systems.

Highbeam · Apr 17, 2017

You're not asking for much. Given your commitment and ability to heat mostly or even 50% with wood, a sophisticated heat pump/furnace system becomes less necessary and more of a geeky thing to get the best with the most features to break. The return on that larger investment over a standard unit may never pay for itself in efficiency and might actually be a loser financially due to higher equipment costs and your known low usage. You sound like you basically want a relatively efficient and dependable back up system that does what your current system does. Any modern system will be a huge improvement in efficiency since regulations have required certain minimum efficiencies in the last 40 years since your house was built.

When it's too cold for your heat pump, any heat pump, the backup resistance elements come on and you stay warm. That's the most important part, the dang thing works. Our power costs in the NW are very low and our climate moderate so your heat pump/electric furnace combo has become the standard and for a good reason. It's great when the heat pump can do all of the work down way below freezing but if it can't that's okay. More important than anything is to get whatever equipment you choose installed properly and well. HVAC guys are notorious hacks. Hope you find a good one!

When/if you replace your system with a new one both the inside and outside unit will almost certainly have to be replaced. Lots has happened since 1979! and they're a matched set.

Wood heat with full time work is certainly not impossible with a non-cat. Actually it's not a problem at all. You just start a fire when you get home and load up before bed. My wife does not run the stove, only me and when we had non-cats and I was away from home 11 hours a day the house stays warm enough and easily warmed back up with my evening fire. If you must, you can let the HVAC system keep the home above a certain low temp but wood heat is not an all-or-nothing deal. Yes, the cat stove makes life way more comfortable but you can get by without it.

iron · Apr 17, 2017

HB: so you're recommending single stage air handler and heat pump? i.e. no variable speed anything?

begreen · Apr 17, 2017

We have 10 yrs experience now with a 2 stage variable speed HP. If I had it to do over the only thing I would change is to go with a Japanese system. The heat pump is much cleaner and more efficient than wood heat so we switch over to the heat pump in this wearther. It works great in our climate zone. I love wood heat and a great fire view, but I also like a solid backup system. This affords the freedom to go on trips without worry and provides clean comfortable heat at a remarkably low cost. At 45F and below we are burning 24/7, but I don't have to worry about the fire if I oversleep, or if we stay a bit longer visiting friends for dinner. A good HP system is ideal for our climate. No regrets. Several wood burning neighbors have put in HP systems since we have after seeing how well and quietly ours works.

Highbeam · Apr 17, 2017

iron said:
HB: so you're recommending single stage air handler and heat pump? i.e. no variable speed anything?

Compare the equipment costs and consider the added value of a simpler and time tested design. Knowing that this heat pump is not your main heat source you won't benefit as much as a guy heating 100% with this furnace. The sell is that spending an extra 3k$ for a fancy system can save you 20% on your annual heating energy cost (made up #). If your annual heating cost is only 100$ then you will never break even on the additional investment. If your annual heating energy cost is 1000$ then in 15 years you break even.

begreen · Apr 17, 2017

Highbeam said:
Compare the equipment costs and consider the added value of a simpler and time tested design. Knowing that this heat pump is not your main heat source you won't benefit as much as a guy heating 100% with this furnace. The sell is that spending an extra 3k$ for a fancy system can save you 20% on your annual heating energy cost (made up #). If your annual heating cost is only 100$ then you will never break even on the additional investment. If your annual heating energy cost is 1000$ then in 15 years you break even.

Mini-split systems are definitely time tested. Asia and Australia already figured this out long before here in the US. Cost varies but note that the installation also provides air conditioning and add value to the property.

Highbeam · Apr 18, 2017

begreen said:
Mini-split systems are definitely time tested. Asia and Australia already figured this out long before here in the US. Cost varies but note that the installation also provides air conditioning and add value to the property.

I don't think we're talking about minisplits but a furnace and heat pump replacement job. The ugly wall mount minis have been time tested overseas.

iron · Apr 18, 2017

correct. i'm looking to hook up to a ducted HVAC system. i.e. replace my air handler and heat pump.

begreen · Apr 18, 2017

Same compressor system that is used in the mini-splits is now available with a vertical air handler. Not new technology, just new packaging.

Highbeam · Apr 18, 2017

begreen said:
Same compressor system that is used in the mini-splits is now available with a vertical air handler. Not new technology, just new packaging.

I think what you're calling "mini-splits with a vertical air handler" is what I'm calling a modern heat pump. Modern heat pumps have figured out how to use variable speed blowers and compressors along with their superior filtration and air flow capabilities. They've had ducted minisplits for decades and those are just miniature air handlers with strict static pressure ducting requirements.

Once you take a split system heat pump and mount the condenser in an air handler attached to ducting for the whole house can you call it a "mini-split" anymore?

begreen · Apr 18, 2017

A mini-split typically has no ducting system. That helps reduce a lot of heat loss. They use an inverter compressor system that further reduces stop/start losses. When coupled with a variable speed head or air handler that is matched to the system, the comfort level is better controlled and losses reduced. To my knowledge there is no modern American system that matches the Asian systems for low outside temp efficiency. Recognizing this some Asian companies are adapting their compressor systems to central hvac systems for a better fit in the American market. They have recently come up with matched vertical air handlers for the central hvac market.

"Modern" is too broad a term. There are many modern American heat pump systems that are still low on the heating efficiency scale. There's a world of difference between a single-stage modern cheap heat pump and the high efficiency inverter compressor system. The quality is not just with efficiency. If you remove the wiring cover on these units you will see a much neater installation. Many American systems look like a rat's nest of wiring where the few Japanese systems I have looked at had neatly loomed and routed wiring with modular repair components. That make servicing a lot easier. And they do this at a competitive price. I expect/hope we catch up here, but currently they have a technological lead.

iron · Apr 24, 2017

question:
some of the HVAC folks that have come out to look at my project mentioned replacing the lines from the air handler to the heat pump, whereas others said the lines are fine to reuse.

what's the consensus here? heat pump appears to have been installed in 1999, so i'm sure the lines are that old as well.

Highbeam · Apr 24, 2017

iron said:
question:
some of the HVAC folks that have come out to look at my project mentioned replacing the lines from the air handler to the heat pump, whereas others said the lines are fine to reuse.

what's the consensus here? heat pump appears to have been installed in 1999, so i'm sure the lines are that old as well.

The lines are available in different sizes so the old ones may be the wrong size to match your equipment. The old lines may leak but a pressure test can confirm that they don't. The lines may be obviously in bad shape (dings, scrapes, bends, kinks, bad insulation, corrosion, poor routing, etc.) but that reason should be specified. Your old lines may have been designed for obsolete coolant, R22 vs. R410, which may have a bearing on the size required. The old lines may be contaminated with dirt, oil, metal debris, etc. on the inside from a failure of the old equipment.

Or they could be trying to rip you off by replacing perfectly good lines.

begreen · Apr 24, 2017

I would guess that they may be concerned about contamination in the lines and their ability to fully purge and clean them. The old lines also may not meet the spec of the new system. For peace of mind I probably would have a new line set installed.

Bristlecone · Apr 25, 2017

R410 is a blended refrigerant and uses a different compressor oil than the r22 system you have. Compressor oil is absorbed by the refrigerant as it travels throughout the system. The oils are not compatible. Yes you could flush the system, but don't it. Replace the copper line set.

maverick06 · May 2, 2017

I had to replace my HVAC system back in 2007. I did it mostly good, but am not thrilled:

replaced old AC with TRANE heat pump. The heat pump is very good and works wonderfully, relatively low cost. I like the brand, would try to replace them with same brand if I had to.

the heater I have is the oil fired backup. Probably late 80's. its past its service life, by a lot. BUT I burn about 5-15 gal of oil a year... so little I cant measure it on the heating oil gage. (everything is wood or heat pump). What I don't like is having a huge oil tank in the basement and a rarely used oil burner... I know you can have electrical resistance heating backup... I also dont like keeping a giant fuel oil tank in my basement that's not needed... and was built in 1956... When the oil burner goes south I would like to do something smarter. (smaller tank? electrical resistance?)

the mini-split units seem awesome, but my house has forced air, so they don't seem to have a place.

Geo thermal is obviously wonderful, but that's based on what the current rebate environment is.... not cheap, and my current equipment works well....

begreen · May 2, 2017

As noted above the gap between mini-splits and central hvac has been addressed by at least two international manufacturers. We have what was pretty much the top of the line American Standard HP system for 2006, but I would definitely consider changing over to the more advanced technology that Daikin and Mitsubishi have now available for central hvac. That may be a while though. Our system usually only runs during mild shoulder system weather. We heat with wood in the winter and have little need for AC.

Highbeam · May 3, 2017

maverick06 said:
I had to replace my HVAC system back in 2007. I did it mostly good, but am not thrilled:

replaced old AC with TRANE heat pump. The heat pump is very good and works wonderfully, relatively low cost. I like the brand, would try to replace them with same brand if I had to.

the heater I have is the oil fired backup. Probably late 80's. its past its service life, by a lot. BUT I burn about 5-15 gal of oil a year... so little I cant measure it on the heating oil gage. (everything is wood or heat pump). What I don't like is having a huge oil tank in the basement and a rarely used oil burner... I know you can have electrical resistance heating backup... I also dont like keeping a giant fuel oil tank in my basement that's not needed... and was built in 1956... When the oil burner goes south I would like to do something smarter. (smaller tank? electrical resistance?)

the mini-split units seem awesome, but my house has forced air, so they don't seem to have a place.

Geo thermal is obviously wonderful, but that's based on what the current rebate environment is.... not cheap, and my current equipment works well....

Should be a piece of cake to remove the oil furnace and install an electric resistance heat coil instead. This, like your oil furnace, would only be used rarely and so the operating cost is not an issue. Plus the electric coil requires zero maintenance, has no fuel tank, takes up almost zero space, and is very cheap to buy. I'm surprised the oil furnace wasn't dumped when the heat pump was installed in 2007 since at that time oil was very expensive.

With or without ducts, the minisplits are excellent performers with really bad aesthetics(subjective of course). The central version of these are extremely expensive so the best buy right now is still a decent quality, multistage, split system heat pump. Sure, you can buy a central split system heat pump that is technologically almost as good as a minisplit but the cost is extremely high right now. Once you introduce variable speed blowers and compressors to the central HVAC the cost rapidly climbs into the multiple 10s of thousands for a standard 2-3 ton system!

begreen · May 3, 2017

Having seen many mini-split systems locally in all sorts of houses from old farmhouses to modern ranches I have not seen one installation that jumps out at the eye and screams ugly. Folks that I have directly asked this question of look at me like I am a little off. Some of these installations are in artist's homes, one is in a single woman's house with fairly fussy tastes and one close by is in the house of an art director of a major ad agency. That house is a $1M+ property. All love them and comment that they hardly notice the wall unit. There are certainly uglier things one can put in one's living room.

Not sure about the current pricing, so I have a call into our installer to see how current cost compares. A full central hvac system is not cheap. Our central hvac system changeover from propane to high efficiency HP in 2006. Quotes ranged from $8.4K with me doing part of the work to $22K for a Home Depot installer. The quotes were for a top end American Standard or Trane system in 2006 dollars. Putting in a simpler, less efficient single-stage system (Bryant) would have saved me about $1500 but I am glad I went for the best. It is much quieter and efficient, particularly at this time of year when it runs mostly on low speed.

begreen · May 3, 2017

So I just had a chat with our installer. He is primarily a Mitsubishi dealer now. Their central hvac system runs about 10-15% over competing high-end American systems like we have. Looks like you get a lot for that additional cost. Most importantly, the system will run at full btu output down to 5ºF. That is a whole lot better than our premium system. In addition to being quieter, another benefit is that one can order a multi-zone system with a central hvac air handler for the main house and also have a wall, ceiling or floor unit for a remote location like an office, bedroom over the garage, etc. that is hard to run duct to. Coming very soon they will also have a domestic hot water heating option. Very cool tech.

Highbeam · May 4, 2017

begreen said:
He is primarily a Mitsubishi dealer now. Their central hvac system runs about 10-15% over competing high-end American systems like we have.

Ah but the competing "high end American" system is now a variable speed compressor and blower. Also, we all know that there is very little "American" going on here. So you have a range of available options and it is hard to tell what you are comparing when you say 10-15% more. I suspect the HVAC guy is capitalizing on this ambiguity.

1) single stage split heat pumps.
2) multi stage, 2-5 stage, heat pumps (what BG has)
3) variable speed heat pump systems (current "American high end")
4) mini splits (ugly wall units like a hotel)
5) central Japanese variable speed heat pumps that are variable speed.

I think the mitsubishi guy was comparing 3 and 5 while BG was comparing 2 and 5.

maverick06 · May 5, 2017

note for above, one of the main reasons I haven't gone to electric resistance backup is that I only have 100amp service to the house. That's plenty for what I do now (have a whole house meter, never been over 60 amps). BUT getting service and the panel upgraded adds to the cost. When the oil burner dies, that's the likely route, resistance and panel updrage.

minisplit domestic hot water? im interested! The water heater is getting a bit older, when it goes I will definitely get a hybrid of some type.

xman23 · May 5, 2017

I've talked to a few people that have recently installed the new technology heat pump. What I heard is the improvement came from the refrigerant and higher working pressure. My daughter said she was heating the house for $1.50 a day. That doesn't seam correct but that's what she said. Huge difference from the oil price.

Have you seen the cassette split units? I need to replace a central air unit, so I may look at the heat pump.

begreen · May 9, 2017

Highbeam said:
Ah but the competing "high end American" system is now a variable speed compressor and blower. Also, we all know that there is very little "American" going on here. So you have a range of available options and it is hard to tell what you are comparing when you say 10-15% more. I suspect the HVAC guy is capitalizing on this ambiguity.

1) single stage split heat pumps.
2) multi stage, 2-5 stage, heat pumps (what BG has)
3) variable speed heat pump systems (current "American high end")
4) mini splits (ugly wall units like a hotel)
5) central Japanese variable speed heat pumps that are variable speed.

I think the mitsubishi guy was comparing 3 and 5 while BG was comparing 2 and 5.

Could be, though we were comparing my system and its current cost to the central Japanese vshp. American Standard's one down from top end is still multi-stage. FWIW He is one of the more rare and honest dealers that I know of. Takes pride in his work and doesn't markup the hardware 100%.

need heat pump / furnace recommendation

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