2019 Progress Hybrid Puff Back

[grobinson2]

Good afternoon Guys,

I have a Progress Hybrid that I purchased at the end of this last season. I am doing rear discharge, hooked to a 35' brick internal chimney with a 10" x 10" flue. Chimney goes though the roof at the peak of my home and does not have other trees or objects with in 50 feet of the outlet. I have a clean out in the bottom of the chimney that is of course below where the stove pipe goes into the flue. I also have a clean out in the attack about 10 feet from the top of the chimney. Both clean outs are gasketed and tight. Chimney flue is clean. House stove is installed in is 3000 sq.f with no insulation but new windows. Makeup air is not an issue to say the least. I am having puff backs with the stove. Not horrible like a coal stove can give you but bad enough where the smoke gets shot out of the back of the stove. Sometimes it happens right after loading and some times it is hours later. Wood being used is a mix of southern yellow pine 2x4 cutoffs that are 10% or less moisture and red oak that is 25% - 30% internal moisture reading. Total load consists of 3/4 pine cut offs and 1/3 cord wood oak. What am I doing wrong? I have a thermocouple installed and when the cat temp is at 800F I close down the air. Of course damper is engaged. The stove seems to do better when I open the bottom chimney clean-out to reduce draft but I will still get a puff back now and then. Also even with the air turned all the way down the secondary combustion will kick in and ruin my nice long burn time. Please let me know any other info you may need to diagnose issue. I do work in the industry and while I am experienced I can and do always learn something new. Thanks again, Glenn

 

[begreen]

Is there an insulated 6" liner in the chimney flue? If not, that is the problem.

 

[bholler]

Good afternoon Guys,

I have a Progress Hybrid that I purchased at the end of this last season. I am doing rear discharge, hooked to a 35' brick internal chimney with a 10" x 10" flue. Chimney goes though the roof at the peak of my home and does not have other trees or objects with in 50 feet of the outlet. I have a clean out in the bottom of the chimney that is of course below where the stove pipe goes into the flue. I also have a clean out in the attack about 10 feet from the top of the chimney. Both clean outs are gasketed and tight. Chimney flue is clean. House stove is installed in is 3000 sq.f with no insulation but new windows. Makeup air is not an issue to say the least. I am having puff backs with the stove. Not horrible like a coal stove can give you but bad enough where the smoke gets shot out of the back of the stove. Sometimes it happens right after loading and some times it is hours later. Wood being used is a mix of southern yellow pine 2x4 cutoffs that are 10% or less moisture and red oak that is 25% - 30% internal moisture reading. Total load consists of 3/4 pine cut offs and 1/3 cord wood oak. What am I doing wrong? I have a thermocouple installed and when the cat temp is at 800F I close down the air. Of course damper is engaged. The stove seems to do better when I open the bottom chimney clean-out to reduce draft but I will still get a puff back now and then. Also even with the air turned all the way down the secondary combustion will kick in and ruin my nice long burn time. Please let me know any other info you may need to diagnose issue. I do work in the industry and while I am experienced I can and do always learn something new. Thanks again, Glenn

I agree with begreen. Your flue is way to large.

 

[fire_man]

Wow I'm amazed it burns as good as it does with a 35' tall 10x10 liner.

That stove is going to draft like crazy if you install the 6" insulated liner - you may even need a damper.

 

[grobinson2]

Thank you for responding guys. No liner, just brick. When I ran coal stoves (Coalbrookdale, DS, Hitzer) I would have to open the bottom cleanout or it would draw on the stove so hard it would over fire. The DS and Hitzer which of course had bi metallic thermostats it would suck those things tightly closed no matter where the chain was set. I have an old Testo around here somewhere. I will get a draft reading and report back. Thanks again, Glenn

 

[bholler]

Thank you for responding guys. No liner, just brick. When I ran coal stoves (Coalbrookdale, DS, Hitzer) I would have to open the bottom cleanout or it would draw on the stove so hard it would over fire. The DS and Hitzer which of course had bi metallic thermostats it would suck those things tightly closed no matter where the chain was set. I have an old Testo around here somewhere. I will get a draft reading and report back. Thanks again, Glenn

You should have had a barometric damper for those coal stoves. But that doesn't matter at this point

 

[grobinson2]

You should have had a barometric damper for those coal stoves. But that doesn't matter at this point

I started with one and then ran two. They never closed. Would suck a candy wrapper right up the flue. Ended up getting rid of both as they would suck all the heat out of the room and ran a MPD and would crack the cleanout door on the chimney. I would just throw in an 8" liner to see what it does but the chimney has two smoke shelfs (built 1896) and to get liner down I will have to cut at each floor and then cut brick out. HUGE MESS that I was hoping to not have to do. Had a 4" pellet liner down the chimney when I was running one of the Ravellies and that worked well but only when I would program the stove to run at about half the fan as I would have set it to run at a normal customers house.

 

[bholler]

I started with one and then ran two. They never closed. Would suck a candy wrapper right up the flue. Ended up getting rid of both as they would suck all the heat out of the room and ran a MPD and would crack the cleanout door on the chimney. I would just throw in an 8" liner to see what it does but the chimney has two smoke shelfs (built 1896) and to get liner down I will have to cut at each floor and then cut brick out. HUGE MESS that I was hoping to not have to do. Had a 4" pellet liner down the chimney when I was running one of the Ravellies and that worked well but only when I would program the stove to run at about half the fan as I would have set it to run at a normal customers house.

So you are running a wood stove up through an oversized presumably unlined 120 year old chimney that passes through 2 old fireplaces? Do you realize how dangerous that is? How do you plan on cleaning that mess properly? As a professional sweep there is no way I would clean that.

 

[barnaclebob]

Ill occasionally get a backpuff on my PH if i shut down the air at the right time for a full cat burn. It gives us a good startle from the top plate slamming back down.
The the secondaires light off shortly after. Ive also got pretty good draft with an insulated chimney and basically cant prevent the secondaries. I dont mind them and still get good burn times. People here have recommended a pipe damper but im not sure its worth the trouble. The cat burns darken the glass which i dont want.

 

[grobinson2]

So you are running a wood stove up through an oversized presumably unlined 120 year old chimney that passes through 2 old fireplaces? Do you realize how dangerous that is? How do you plan on cleaning that mess properly? As a professional sweep there is no way I would clean that.

No, that is not correct. For clarification, chimney is brick, without a liner. Chimney has two smoke shelves where I assume back in the day were above crocks that were removed and re bricked sometime between year of construction and 1978 (year my parents purchased this home that was part of the main farm). I am sure this will come across as me being an ass but it really is not meant that way at all, but I am not asking you to clean my chimney (certified sweep already) and I respectfully disagree with the assessment of it being dangerous. Now if the post said it was not up to 2019 code, then that would be correct. Thanks again, Glenn

 

[grobinson2]

Ill occasionally get a backpuff on my PH if i shut down the air at the right time for a full cat burn. It gives us a good startle from the top plate slamming back down.
The the secondaires light off shortly after. Ive also got pretty good draft with an insulated chimney and basically cant prevent the secondaries. I dont mind them and still get good burn times. People here have recommended a pipe damper but im not sure its worth the trouble. The cat burns darken the glass which i dont want.

I have a message into Wood Stock about a MPD and using it with this stove... As I have tried just about everything else I may just have to suck it up and take out those smoke shelves and run a liner down this chimney. Is anyone venting into an 8" liner? I really hate to put in a six and limit my self to stoves that only have six inches or less discharges. As far as secondarys I would love to get rid of mine and get as long of a burn time as possible.

Thanks again,
Glenn

 

[begreen]

I have a message into Wood Stock about a MPD and using it with this stove... As I have tried just about everything else I may just have to suck it up and take out those smoke shelves and run a liner down this thing. Is anyone venting into 8" liners? I really hate to put in a six and limit my self to stoves that only have six inches or less discharges.

6" is by far the most common flue vent size on stoves these days. There are only a handful requiring 8".

 

[grobinson2]

6" is by far the most common flue vent size on stoves these days. There are only a handful requiring 8".

Totally agree! But two of them I really like (Hearth Stone).

 

[begreen]

This is from page 2 of the PH installation manual.

 

[grobinson2]

This is from page 2 of the PH installation manual.
View attachment 251202

Beleive it or not I still have the manual in the filing cabnet and did not use it to start my first fire. Looks like I will be fine with an 8" round flue. My wife is going to shoot me when she sees that concrete saw come in the house.

 

[begreen]

Running the PH on a tall 8" liner may be ok. Provide Woodstock with the specifics and ask. Running it on an oversized, raw brick and unlined chimney is not safe.

 

[grobinson2]

Running the PH on a tall 8" liner may be ok. Provide Woodstock with the specifics and ask. Running it on an oversized, raw brick and unlined chimney is not safe.

I know everyone has it drilled into there heads that unlined chimneys mean certain death now days... Please remember we used unlined chimneys for years and civilization did survive. Kind of like these stupid car seats that have an expiration date. On the other hand the argument could be put forth that we used to drink soda with real coke in it and we don't do that any more either...

 

[kennyp2339]

Creaky old farm house? I'd square away the PH on a 6" insulated liner, then look into installing a 2nd stove on its own class A chimney else where at a different time once you figure out your thermal loops in the house, Once the liner is installed I'd run a few fires on cheap black pipe and drill a hole into it to see what kind of draft your dealing with, I would suspect that it would be a strong draft, so you may need a damper.
Insulated liner just for the safety of the house, not because the chimney would be cold, you never know if theres a cracker mortar joint in the chimney, (I also think it needs to have a clay liner at a minimum if no steel liner is in place, can only imagine the creosote build up over time) So if you have a fire the heat wont penetrate the cracks or create any new cracks and keep the fire contained so it doesn't burn down the homestead.
The PH's are beautiful stoves, I've heard they can blast some heat out to and sometimes people return them because there to powerful.
Any plans with air sealing? Is the stove set in more of an open floor plan? whats the ceiling height? just being nosey because I want to hear about the performance of the PH.
Edit: Lets talk about the wood, I think the pine might be burning through fast and by the time the oak is ready to lite off since its wet the majority of the pine btu's are long gone, the cat is still hot enough so the oak smokes creating a fuel rich environment, the smoke then hits its flash point and lights off causing the puffing, the only real fix here would be to stop burning the oak and find something drier.

 

[bholler]

I know everyone has it drilled into there heads that unlined chimneys mean certain death now days... Please remember we used unlined chimneys for years and civilization did survive. Kind of like these stupid car seats that have an expiration date. On the other hand the argument could be put forth that we used to drink soda with real coke in it and we don't do that any more either...

It does not at all mean certain death. But it is without question nowhere near as safe as it could or should be. Yes people burned through unlined chimneys for a long time. And there were lots of structure fires started because of that. Then we started using clay liners and it was a big step up in safety. But we found that they still transfer heat through the masonry structure very well which has also caused many structure fires. That is why codes now require either an air space around that chimney 2" in your case or an insulated liner.

 

[begreen]

I know everyone has it drilled into there heads that unlined chimneys mean certain death now days... Please remember we used unlined chimneys for years and civilization did survive. Kind of like these stupid car seats that have an expiration date. On the other hand the argument could be put forth that we used to drink soda with real coke in it and we don't do that any more either...

A 120 yr old chimney is not like new. Its mortar is weaker now. The effects of chimney fires, moisture degradation, coal acids and extreme heating and cooling cycles are cumulative.

 

[grobinson2]

It does not at all mean certain death. But it is without question nowhere near as safe as it could or should be. Yes people burned through unlined chimneys for a long time. And there were lots of structure fires started because of that. Then we started using clay liners and it was a big step up in safety. But we found that they still transfer heat through the masonry structure very well which has also caused many structure fires. That is why codes now require either an air space around that chimney 2" in your case or an insulated liner.

Agreed.

 

[grobinson2]

A 120 yr old chimney is not like new. Its mortar is weaker now. The effects of chimney fires, moisture degradation, coal acids and extreme heating and cooling cycles are cumulative.

Agreed.

 

[grobinson2]

Creaky old farm house? I'd square away the PH on a 6" insulated liner, then look into installing a 2nd stove on its own class A chimney else where at a different time once you figure out your thermal loops in the house, Once the liner is installed I'd run a few fires on cheap black pipe and drill a hole into it to see what kind of draft your dealing with, I would suspect that it would be a strong draft, so you may need a damper.
Insulated liner just for the safety of the house, not because the chimney would be cold, you never know if theres a cracker mortar joint in the chimney, (I also think it needs to have a clay liner at a minimum if no steel liner is in place, can only imagine the creosote build up over time) So if you have a fire the heat wont penetrate the cracks or create any new cracks and keep the fire contained so it doesn't burn down the homestead.
The PH's are beautiful stoves, I've heard they can blast some heat out to and sometimes people return them because there to powerful.
Any plans with air sealing? Is the stove set in more of an open floor plan? whats the ceiling height? just being nosey because I want to hear about the performance of the PH.
Edit: Lets talk about the wood, I think the pine might be burning through fast and by the time the oak is ready to lite off since its wet the majority of the pine btu's are long gone, the cat is still hot enough so the oak smokes creating a fuel rich environment, the smoke then hits its flash point and lights off causing the puffing, the only real fix here would be to stop burning the oak and find something drier.

Home is a total of 4400 sq. f or around there. We live in a little over half and rent out the other side of the house. My primary heat comes from a 350K BTU/h wood chip boiler that sits in a bank barn 650 feet away from my house. Boiler heats a 5000 sq. f stone house on a 1 1/4" underground dedicated loop. Two hot water to air heat exchangers with one in the attack and one in the basement and radiant floor heat for an addition. House was built in 1732 and is very well maintained but is 100% original. A 1.5" underground loop goes 650 feet under ground from the bank barn to my house where it heats 1000 gal of thermal storage (Duel 500 gallon tanks). These two tanks feed 12' x 25' drive way ice melt, a hot water to air heat exchanger that heats the tenant side of the house and cast iron radiators for my side. It also heats to electric hot water heaters for domestic hot water via a 7GPM 4" NPT copper coil. So that is my primary heat.

The house has four chimneys. Two are internal and two are external with two chimneys being on each side of the house. 9 foot ceilings downstairs. Stove is located in the center of our side of the house with an open floor plan. A 4' x 4' cast iron grate is located above the stove and the cold air return is the stair way that faces away from the stove. A piece of paper will float and slowly makes its away from the grate down the steps and around the corner back towards the stove if it is running of course. 7" of 1950's area blow in fiber glass is in the attack. Walls are hollow with knob and tube wiring. Only two of the main external walls have the knob and tube and that will be replaced before open cell pored foam will be injected inside the walls. Only reason this has not already been done is everything is horse hair plaster and I dread the re wire.

Tomorrow I am going to let the stove go out, and measure so I know exactly where the smoke shelves are located in the chimney. I wish I could figure out a way to get those out without having to cut through the walls of the chimney inside my home but at this time that's about the only way I can think of for removing them. Once they are removed 8" rigid liner will be installed. ----- I am sorry I just saw what you said regarding the wood. I think you may be on to something here. I had mixed the wood so to avoid over powering the CAT and running it past 1400 F for prolonged times. I may try and burn a load of just cord wood (dry) tomorrow and see how that does. As far as heat coming off the stove... The stove heats like crazy! No issues there. I just feel like with the secondarys it is hard to keep the heat output down and the burn times up. But clearly I have other issues to work on right now.

Thanks again,
Glenn

 

[bholler]

Home is a total of 4400 sq. f or around there. We live in a little over half and rent out the other side of the house. My primary heat comes from a 350K BTU/h wood chip boiler that sits in a bank barn 650 feet away from my house. Boiler heats a 5000 sq. f stone house on a 1 1/4" underground dedicated loop. Two hot water to air heat exchangers with one in the attack and one in the basement and radiant floor heat for an addition. House was built in 1732 and is very well maintained but is 100% original. A 1.5" underground loop goes 650 feet under ground from the bank barn to my house where it heats 1000 gal of thermal storage (Duel 500 gallon tanks). These two tanks feed 12' x 25' drive way ice melt, a hot water to air heat exchanger that heats the tenant side of the house and cast iron radiators for my side. It also heats to electric hot water heaters for domestic hot water via a 7GPM 4" NPT copper coil. So that is my primary heat. The house has four chimneys. Two are internal and two are external with two chimneys being on each side of the house. 9 foot ceilings down stairs. Stove is located in the center of our side of the house with an open floor plan. A 4' x 4' cast iron grate is located above the stove and the cold air return is the stair way that faces away from the stove. A piece of paper will float and slowly makes its away from the grate down the steps and around the corner back towards the stove if it is running of course. 7" of 1950's area blow in fiber glass is in the attack. Walls are hollow with knob and tube wiring. Only two of the main external walls have the knob and tube and that will be replaced before open cell pored foam will be injected inside the walls. Only reason this has not already been done is everything is horse hair plaster and I dread the re wire. Tomorrow I am going to let the stove go out, and measure so I know exactly where the smoke shelves are located in the chimney. I wish I could figure out a way to get those out without having to cut through the walls of the chimney inside my home but at this time that's about the only way I can think of for removing them. Once they are removed 8" rigid liner will be installed. ----- I am sorry I just saw what you said regarding the wood. I think you may be on to something here. I had mixed the wood so to avoid over powering the CAT and running it past 1400 F for prolonged times. I may try and burn a load of just cord wood (dry) tomorrow and see how that does. As far as heat coming off the stove... The stove heats like crazy! No issues there. I just feel like with the secondarys it is hard to keep the heat output down and the burn times up. But clearly I have other issues to work on right now.

Thanks again,
Glenn

What are these smoke shelves you are referring to? I am just curious. I have been doing this a long time and worked in many pa homes from that time period and I have yet to see a smoke shelf that was not at some point a fireplace.

Why not go with a heavywall flex liner instead of rigid they are much easier to install and just as durable.

 

[grobinson2]

What are these smoke shelves you are referring to? I am just curious. I have been doing this a long time and worked in many pa homes from that time period and I have yet to see a smoke shelf that was not at some point a fireplace.

Why not go with a heavywall flex liner instead of rigid they are much easier to install and just as durable.

Cost. I can get rigid at about half the cost of flex from the Mennonites and this is even with my whole sale accounts. I have always heard them referred too as smoke shelves but they could be called something else. Approximately three feet above where it looks (using the fiber cam) like each crock was installed they have brick coming out into the flue of the chimney so that you only have around 4" between the opposite wall of the flue and the brick shelf. Then above the shelf it goes back to the regular flue and then above the upstairs crocks you have the same thing again.