I ordered a King 40 through a dealer back in April 2022. They originally told me the stove would ship from BK in July 2022. That got pushed back a few times and now I'm now being told I can't get it until January 2023 at the earliest. Anybody ordered one through a dealer recently with a similar experience?
2022-2023 BK everything thread
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Todd
Minister of Fire
I recently went to a dealer with a friend looking for a Sirroco 20 he said he Couldn’t guarantee it would arrive before next year. My friend opted for a PE Super but that may not arrive till late Fall. It’s looking like another busy season for manufactures, expect delays.
There's a king40 sitting in vernon BC at a dealer right now, or was last week. They always seem to have one there on display(for sale). I think the salesman said there was another one in the back, both ultra's. I was ordering a spare cumbuster
Ashful
Minister of Fire
In a mere 80 hours, assuming you don't eat, sleep, or stop for gas, that baby could be yours, ashburner!
Crummy
Member
Just got a new Sirocco 20 about a week ago and have a couple questions. I've been reading and searching these forums for the last week and haven't came up with a clear answer.
When starting the stove I wait for the needle to get in the active zone and then close the bypass. Then from what I read I should let it burn on high for 20 or so minutes but if I do the stove gets what I am thinking is way too hot. From what I read people say don't worry about it as the thermostat won't let it overheat but it seems to me it's heading for a molten puddle in the corner. In under 15 minutes the cat meter will be way beyond the active zone like pointing straight down and the top of the stove to the right side of the pipe (not directly above the cat) will be well over 600°. I have been turning it down in less than 10 minutes when the needle has left the active zone but this isn't long enough to clean the glass. Wood is small splits of black spruce that's around 12-14% so that may be the problem but any larger splits I have are a couple rows back in the shed so it would be tough to get to just to test it. Will it overheat?
Other question is when running it on low how much wood or basically charcoal should be left when it falls below the active zone? We are currently running in the 40's at night and low 60's during the day so a fire is nice but if I put the thermostat above about 2:30 position we have to open all the windows in the house as it's just too hot. At the 2:30 - 3:00 position it will burn for 16+ hours with a full load but it will fall below the active zone after 12 or so hours with just basically charred pieces left burning and the stove top to the right of the pipe at around 200°. Does it hurt for it to fall into the inactive zone for several hours at the end of a burn?
Thanks for any answers as I didn't find any clear answers after several hours of searching over the last week.
When starting the stove I wait for the needle to get in the active zone and then close the bypass. Then from what I read I should let it burn on high for 20 or so minutes but if I do the stove gets what I am thinking is way too hot. From what I read people say don't worry about it as the thermostat won't let it overheat but it seems to me it's heading for a molten puddle in the corner. In under 15 minutes the cat meter will be way beyond the active zone like pointing straight down and the top of the stove to the right side of the pipe (not directly above the cat) will be well over 600°. I have been turning it down in less than 10 minutes when the needle has left the active zone but this isn't long enough to clean the glass. Wood is small splits of black spruce that's around 12-14% so that may be the problem but any larger splits I have are a couple rows back in the shed so it would be tough to get to just to test it. Will it overheat?
Other question is when running it on low how much wood or basically charcoal should be left when it falls below the active zone? We are currently running in the 40's at night and low 60's during the day so a fire is nice but if I put the thermostat above about 2:30 position we have to open all the windows in the house as it's just too hot. At the 2:30 - 3:00 position it will burn for 16+ hours with a full load but it will fall below the active zone after 12 or so hours with just basically charred pieces left burning and the stove top to the right of the pipe at around 200°. Does it hurt for it to fall into the inactive zone for several hours at the end of a burn?
Thanks for any answers as I didn't find any clear answers after several hours of searching over the last week.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
The high temperature in the beginning is (indeed) not an issue. The cat gauge is not actually giving a temperature - that's why it's not having a scale. Best to only use it as a "yes/no" decision maker of when to engage the cat.
It is very hot now because new catalysts are often hyperactive. Once you burn a cord or so of wood, it'll behave more maturely...
My cat falls out of the active zone when there are a few glowing coals left. It does not hurt the cat or stove when the last hours of a burn the cat is not active anymore. Charcoal does not make a lot (or any) creosote.
It is very hot now because new catalysts are often hyperactive. Once you burn a cord or so of wood, it'll behave more maturely...
My cat falls out of the active zone when there are a few glowing coals left. It does not hurt the cat or stove when the last hours of a burn the cat is not active anymore. Charcoal does not make a lot (or any) creosote.
Crummy
Member
So the needle going way beyond the active range is ok? I'm talking it will go straight down and beyond in a short time.
Sounds like your on the correct learning curve. When you get down to just some charred remnants and a low stove top temp you can always crank up the therm to burn them up, and produce more heat. Great stove. Mine has been perfect. Keep us posted on any questions etc.
No worry. The indicator needle is reacting to the new Cat. It will moderate in its travel over time as the Cat gets some hrs on it.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Nealm66
Minister of Fire
The long burn time, even with the low heat output, can be windows open event. You can try the smaller fast burn fire but I’ve seen a big chunk last a long time.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Guys, if I read @Crummy's post correctly, then I'm worried the advice you gave here is not good. While properly assembled and operating BK's are designed to never let the combustor over-fire, anyone hanging around this forum long enough has seen examples of that not always working out, whether due to a mis-placed or damaged gasket, missed weld... there have been a few.
Based on past measurements by members here confirming the scale roughly tracks the Condar FlueGard (heck... the BK thermometer might be a private-labeled Condar FlueGard), a needle winding all the way around and pointing down at 6 o'clock indicates roughly 2000°F. With various chemistries and manufacturers reporting maximum sustained temperatures of 1700 to 1800°F, it does seem @Crummy may be running a bit hot. Continued operation at these temperatures will shorten the life of the combustor, so let's talk about how to fix it.
1. Be sure that both your door and window gaskets are tight, without damage, and that there are not gaps.
2. Use larger pieces of wood (eg. 4" to 7" diameter), and pitchy woods (eg. pine) while the catalyst is new and super-reactive.
3. If both of the above fail to get keep the needle below 4 o'clock, then run reduced loads until the thing calms down a bit.
New combustors can be hyper-reactive, that is true. It will settle down within a few weeks, but I'd be looking to NOT have that cat probe needle pointing at 6 o'clock, in the interim.
Based on past measurements by members here confirming the scale roughly tracks the Condar FlueGard (heck... the BK thermometer might be a private-labeled Condar FlueGard), a needle winding all the way around and pointing down at 6 o'clock indicates roughly 2000°F. With various chemistries and manufacturers reporting maximum sustained temperatures of 1700 to 1800°F, it does seem @Crummy may be running a bit hot. Continued operation at these temperatures will shorten the life of the combustor, so let's talk about how to fix it.
1. Be sure that both your door and window gaskets are tight, without damage, and that there are not gaps.
2. Use larger pieces of wood (eg. 4" to 7" diameter), and pitchy woods (eg. pine) while the catalyst is new and super-reactive.
3. If both of the above fail to get keep the needle below 4 o'clock, then run reduced loads until the thing calms down a bit.
New combustors can be hyper-reactive, that is true. It will settle down within a few weeks, but I'd be looking to NOT have that cat probe needle pointing at 6 o'clock, in the interim.
Crummy
Member
I am absolutely not operating it at these temperatures it's just easy to get it there if I leave it on high for very long after closing the bypass door. I have been turning it down as soon as it reaches the top of the active zone because it seems to be overheating beyond that but it doesn't clean the glass. I was asking if beyond the active zone is too hot because I have read in many threads that the thermostat won't let it overheat.
What is a normal high temperature for the top of the stove? I have a magnetic guage on the right side of the pipe(not over the cat) and it will easily reach 650 if I don't turn it down right away.
Stove seems to put out great heat with the thermostat at the 4 o'clock position with the cat at the top of the active zone and I get long burns at the 2:30-3:00 position with the cat around the 11 o'clock position. Thermostat any higher and it seems to just keep climbing but I turn it down as it seems too hot.
We will give it some time and see if it calms down. Right now we have warmed up a few degrees so no fire tonight.
Crummy
Member
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Unfortunately, there's no good reference for stovetop temperatures on my stove, as it has a convection deck on top, which runs very cool (and variable) due to the air gap between the convection top and the actual firebox. In fact, I had thought the Sirocco was similar, in that regard, but I've never really looked closely at any of the BK 20's.
I drive by cat probe temp and chimney temperature, only. If you have single wall pipe, you'd do well to move that magnetic Midwest thermometer to the pipe, and secure it with a screw thru the center (they fall off at Curie temperature (~350°C). If you have double-wall pipe, that magnetic thermometer is useless to you, you'll want to buy a probe (eg. Condar FlueGard).
And in that vein, there are some things you can do to improve your method:
1. You don't need to wait for the cat probe to reach active to close the bypass. This instruction is aimed at beginners and casual burners, to prevent false starts, but that combustor (especially a brand-new hyper-active one) is ready for light-off way before the probe says active. This is the advice of someone who has more than 100 cords thru cat stoves in the last ten years.
I typically close my bypass when any two of three criteria are met:
1a. Stove pipe probe is well above 500F (or 300F for the one stove wearing an external surface thermometer on single-wall pipe.
1b. Wood load is completely engulfed or charred, no fresh wood easily visible.
1c. The fire is going well enough that experience has taught me we should be fine.
Again, 2 of 3 criteria, no one of these will do alone.
2. Yes, you're supposed to burn on high for 20 minutes to clean the firebox of crud, and bake enough moisture out of the wood that you won't go into a stall on turn-down. But given your astronomical cat probe temperatures, I'd start incrementally working my way down as soon as the probe hit the 3 o'clock position. Note that a quick turn-down on a roaring fire will drive cat temperature even higher, for a period, as the wood is outgassing quickly and you've just starved it of the air required to burn those volatiles before reaching the combustor. This is why you want to work your way down in small increments every 5+ minutes, rather than making a big turn-down all at once.
Again, unless you have a leak somewhere, this issue will resolve itself in a few weeks, as the combustor breaks in.
Others will add more, I am sure. These stoves are very simple to operate, but there are still many tricks we've all learned over the years, that can improve them. For you, again assuming there's no air leak, I think the biggest issue might be the size of the wood you're burning. Might do well to dig the big stuff out of the shed, to mix in with the small, such that you don't have full loads of smaller wood, which can outgas quickly and drive up cat temp.
I drive by cat probe temp and chimney temperature, only. If you have single wall pipe, you'd do well to move that magnetic Midwest thermometer to the pipe, and secure it with a screw thru the center (they fall off at Curie temperature (~350°C). If you have double-wall pipe, that magnetic thermometer is useless to you, you'll want to buy a probe (eg. Condar FlueGard).
And in that vein, there are some things you can do to improve your method:
1. You don't need to wait for the cat probe to reach active to close the bypass. This instruction is aimed at beginners and casual burners, to prevent false starts, but that combustor (especially a brand-new hyper-active one) is ready for light-off way before the probe says active. This is the advice of someone who has more than 100 cords thru cat stoves in the last ten years.
I typically close my bypass when any two of three criteria are met:
1a. Stove pipe probe is well above 500F (or 300F for the one stove wearing an external surface thermometer on single-wall pipe.
1b. Wood load is completely engulfed or charred, no fresh wood easily visible.
1c. The fire is going well enough that experience has taught me we should be fine.
Again, 2 of 3 criteria, no one of these will do alone.
2. Yes, you're supposed to burn on high for 20 minutes to clean the firebox of crud, and bake enough moisture out of the wood that you won't go into a stall on turn-down. But given your astronomical cat probe temperatures, I'd start incrementally working my way down as soon as the probe hit the 3 o'clock position. Note that a quick turn-down on a roaring fire will drive cat temperature even higher, for a period, as the wood is outgassing quickly and you've just starved it of the air required to burn those volatiles before reaching the combustor. This is why you want to work your way down in small increments every 5+ minutes, rather than making a big turn-down all at once.
Again, unless you have a leak somewhere, this issue will resolve itself in a few weeks, as the combustor breaks in.
Others will add more, I am sure. These stoves are very simple to operate, but there are still many tricks we've all learned over the years, that can improve them. For you, again assuming there's no air leak, I think the biggest issue might be the size of the wood you're burning. Might do well to dig the big stuff out of the shed, to mix in with the small, such that you don't have full loads of smaller wood, which can outgas quickly and drive up cat temp.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
I went back to old posts of bkvp.
600+ stove top temps are not too hot.
Initial pegging of the cat gauge is not a concern unless it keeps doing it consistently for a while (I read that as 10 burn cycles or so)
It's good to check gaskets, but the stove itself is not being too hot, and more air can in fact lower cat temps. So I don't think this is the issue.
I was there )needle all the way to the bottom) too.
600+ stove top temps are not too hot.
Initial pegging of the cat gauge is not a concern unless it keeps doing it consistently for a while (I read that as 10 burn cycles or so)
It's good to check gaskets, but the stove itself is not being too hot, and more air can in fact lower cat temps. So I don't think this is the issue.
I was there )needle all the way to the bottom) too.
This is good knowledge for my new BK, (no chimney installed yet). The salesman was walking me thru the starting process. I quite sure he had no idea of what he was talking about despite saying he has his own BK. He said to put the thermostat in the automatic position, which is strait down until it clicks. That assures the longest burn time. If I want a hotter fire I must position the dial to the desired temp before I close the bypass. Once the cat is engaged and bypass is closed. the thermostat will be "locked into that position" regardless of moving the dial to any position. So he basically said I had to choose a desired temp setting with the dial before hand without having the ability to change it at any time throughout the burn. It seemed odd to me not to have the ability to change the setting during the burn. This is what really caught my attention. He claimed the the high setting on the dial was strait up, when the white indicator was at the narrowest portion of the white "graph" and the lowest setting was at the widest area of the graph. Which would be opposite of any other high/low graph symbol in the world. I admit I havent read the manual yet, its just not burning season and I dont have a install yet.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
If we believe the work done by past members (Highbeam, were you involved in this?), that the readings on BK’s cat probe roughly correlate to the FlueGard, and that 6 o’clock is nearly 2000F, then anyone saying 6 o’clock is fine would be in disagreement with the temperatures quoted by every catalyst manufacturer I have ever seen. Also note that the first few posts in response to this user essentially told him “don’t worry, don’t turn down the stove, let it rip”. This would imply longer durations at this temperature are fine, which I believe is incorrect advice.
Short duration violations are supposed to do less long-term damage, which is why I recommended incrementally turning down when you see the needle headed past 4 o’clock.
I think the more interesting question is the cause of it, and verifying there’s no gasket leak. New cats are indeed hyper-reactive, but 2000F is hot, even for a new cat, based on my not-so-small experience of at LEAST 8 new cats between 4 stoves in the last eleven years.
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
That salesman seems to not.know his product.
You can adjust the thermostat during the burn. Nothing is locked in. Best to change it in small increments though.
Do read the manual. (I'm that kind of guy.)
You can adjust the thermostat during the burn. Nothing is locked in. Best to change it in small increments though.
Do read the manual. (I'm that kind of guy.)
stoveliker
Minister of Fire
Re: hot cat. I've had the same. But.i didn't use 5 cats yet.
In my experience the gauge will settle down in a burn after half an hour to 45 minutes or so, depending on the load (soft vs hard wood, speed of turning down etc).
The point is that it's the thermal budget that is a problem. I.e. temp times time. So you don't want to have a whole load of 20 hrs at that gauge setting, I agree. But in my experience it won't do that.
Moreover, I think leaking gaskets *lower* cat temps because more is burned and less fuel goes to the cat.
In my experience the gauge will settle down in a burn after half an hour to 45 minutes or so, depending on the load (soft vs hard wood, speed of turning down etc).
The point is that it's the thermal budget that is a problem. I.e. temp times time. So you don't want to have a whole load of 20 hrs at that gauge setting, I agree. But in my experience it won't do that.
Moreover, I think leaking gaskets *lower* cat temps because more is burned and less fuel goes to the cat.
Nealm66
Minister of Fire
My small experience with spruce is it burns faster and hot ( pre epa stove) so if it’s really dry you might shut it down a little earlier. The glass will clean up when the weather gets a little colder and you find your sweet spot on the dial for the colder weather. I’m only 2 seasons though so…
Nealm66
Minister of Fire
Ya, the manual gives pretty good directions. Hard part is finding your sweet spot on the dial and figuring out your reloading to fit your schedule. My princess can be stubborn and a little unpredictable sometimes as far as reloading cycles but pretty consistent as far as house temp.
Crummy
Member
I'm finding this stove to have very consistent heat and long enough burn times so overall very happy. I suppose the way it has to be turned down so soon could be looked at as a advantage as I can have a full load burning and set for the night in 20 minutes. Its only burned 1/8 of a cord so far so we will see if the cat changes in a month or two.
This picture is after a 12 hour burn with 3/4 load and thermostat at 3 after a 20 minute startup. Still have a full bed of coals that will probably burn for several more hours.
This picture is after a 12 hour burn with 3/4 load and thermostat at 3 after a 20 minute startup. Still have a full bed of coals that will probably burn for several more hours.
Highbeam
Minister of Fire
As a fellow 12% softwood burner, the recommended 20 minute charring time at full throttle is not for us. You will overheat your flue system and your cat meter will go way high. Do char the fresh load of fuel but it won’t take 20 minutes. Start adjusting the thermostat down way sooner, soon enough to prevent either your flue system or cat meter from reading too high.
With softwoods, you can really scorch the chimney easily. Hopefully you’re monitoring flue temperatures.
I also run the BK when it’s pretty warm outside to keep the house warm. Until this year it was 100% of our house heating. I don’t open windows, just burn smaller loads when it’s not cold enough to run a full load of fuel at low.
Oh and when running out of fuel on low settings you can expect a split or two of unburnt fuel after the stove goes cold. There’s just not enough heat in the actual fire to burn it to dust. This might be a softwood thing. I don’t see as many remnants with red alder.
Crummy
Member
This morning when I reloaded I only left it on high until the cat was at 3:00 and then turned the thermostat down to about 5:00. With it at 5 I was able to hold flames for over 20 minutes without the cat going beyond the active zone very far which got all the wood charred I then turned it down to 3:30 and it's heating nicely. Seems to be a trial and error situation but I'm getting it dialed in. I'm sure it will all change when I get a row or two into the shed and hit some bigger splits and some birch.
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