25-PAH Premature Burn Pot Failure - My fault or the burn pots? (2 burn pots in 4 months)

[SidecarFlip]

Exactly what I would suggest for anyone - if you have the resources or the contacts get a better one made, for everyone else keep buying from the same factory that makes money on replacing them... I think 1/4" stainless could make a heck of a burn pot.... or possibly AR500 as long the temps do not exceed the tempering... I know we shoot at it with 556 and 308's with 1000's of rounds and not a blemish... might make a great pot if you can find someone to work with the materials. My current pot in my 55trpah is now in it's 3rd year and I just noticed it is starting to burn through in a couple small areas... if I buy another one and it lasts another 3 years I'd be happy.. but most likely I will cut out the floor and replace with another piece of 1/4" flat stock.

Impact resistance and heat resistance have nothing in common with each other.... at all. AR 500 is strictly an impact resistant steel and would make a poor but expensive burn pot.

I really think the root of the issue is the steel is substandard. Heat resistant sheet/plate would work just fine actually.

 

[acammer]

I really think the root of the issue is the steel is substandard. Heat resistant sheet/plate would work just fine actually.

I have to agree. Take a look at these pictures of my new burn-pot after just 48hrs of running (at full power, with the factory (lean) settings). You can see on the bottom of the pot metal is already flaking off, as well as some real big chunks on the back side. It's interesting to note that the worst of the degradation seems to happen not inside the pot, where the fire is, but on the outside/bottom.

@stoveguy2esw - is this normal? Why are these burn pots coming apart like this?

 

[adam6979]

That scorching (per se) of the metal looks like what happens when I heat up a frozen nut with acetylene torch... it flakes and cracks and the o2 blows off pieces of the metal, the next phase is cutting through the fastener. In my opinion, either you have a significantly gas rich air supply or those pots are junk, (or both I guess). If that is a brand new pot I would be getting in touch with ESW to replace it under warranty and have them figure out what is happening. $68 pots are going to get expensive for you quickly.

 

[adam6979]

Impact resistance and heat resistance have nothing in common with each other.... at all. AR 500 is strictly an impact resistant steel and would make a poor but expensive burn pot.

I really think the root of the issue is the steel is substandard. Heat resistant sheet/plate would work just fine actually.

I believe you to be right, impact wouldn't be the same as heat - why I said perhaps - not a suggestion to do it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Could you time your feed system and post what you get for auger on/off times on that stove?

Also what pellets are you burning?

 

[acammer]

Could you time your feed system and post what you get for auger on/off times on that stove?

Also what pellets are you burning?

For the high heat range (where I do 85% of my running)? I am burning Heatr's pellets - is there a thought that they might have a corrosive contribution to this type of wear? I haven't noticed any odd wear/corrosion anywhere else, although the pot would be at the epicenter of this.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Yes on the timing for the high heat range.

 

[acammer]

Yes on the timing for the high heat range.

Will do at my next shutdown - when it comes back up after being off I usually get 3 minutes or so after it comes out of startup before the convection fan starts running where I can hear the auger motor well enough to get accurate results. Trying to get a feel for the lbs/hr?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Will do at my next shutdown - when it comes back up after being off I usually get 3 minutes or so after it comes out of startup before the convection fan starts running where I can hear the auger motor well enough to get accurate results. Trying to get a feel for the lbs/hr?

Nope trying to get a feel for if the controller is feeding more than it should because it feeds for too long and or is off for too short a period.

 

[acammer]

I'll grab some timing on off numbers. I'll try to get the timing with the stock trim, as well as the timing with the trim up about as far as I tend to be able to run it while maintaining a clean burn. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. I really wish Mike Holton would get in on this thread and lend some comments to why these pots are coming apart like this. I know he's real busy, maybe he'll notice the tag when he logs on next.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'll grab some timing on off numbers. I'll try to get the timing with the stock trim, as well as the timing with the trim up about as far as I tend to be able to run it while maintaining a clean burn. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. I really wish Mike Holton would get in on this thread and lend some comments to why these pots are coming apart like this. I know he's real busy, maybe he'll notice the tag when he logs on next.

That is why I asked for the timing information I have already sent Mike a message and pointed him to the pictures,

 

[acammer]

That is why I asked for the timing information I have already sent Mike a message and pointed him to the pictures,

Thanks. I'm not out to point fingers or play a blame game, I just really want to get to the bottom of this.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I believe you to be right, impact wouldn't be the same as heat - why I said perhaps - not a suggestion to do it.

I'm not one to toot my own horn but I am in the steel business in my real life..... The ideal steel to use is fire resistant, boiler plate steel. Fire resistant steel refers to the steel's ability to resist heat induced oxidation, which, is what is occuring in this case. I bet those pots are A36 low carbon sheet or cheap azzed steel. Fine to make the stove cabinet from, not so good for a firepot.

 

[OhioBurner©]

My new one looks about the same after just a few days...



Burning Somersets which is a very common and sought after pellet. I ran it near high (up to 8 for around a day) but the rest of the time has been in the 4-7 range mostly. Air and fuel trim on factory default and seem to be good best I can tell.

 

[woodmakesheat]

I guess I shouldn't be so concerned that I get some discoloration of the stainless pot in my CPM. Something is not right with the way that metal is decomposing.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Looks to be cheap azzed steel (possibly Chinese)...lol

 

[SidecarFlip]

I can make stainless do that too. At least 3 series.

 

[acammer]

That is why I asked for the timing information I have already sent Mike a message and pointed him to the pictures,

On heat level 9, lff trim 1 I see about 3.5 seconds on and then 4 seconds off for cycles. With the lff set to 5 (where I get max heat without a dirty burn) I see about 4 seconds on, then 4 seconds off. Thoughts?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'm not the one that needs to comment as I don't have the timing information for that stove. Mike last posted back on February 20 but was on the site at 3:01 PM yesterday.

Just to hurry things along give them a call and stuff. Operating under the squeaky wheel rules of the road with that suggestion. He doesn't have to pay attention to a PM from me as I'm not a customer not that he wouldn't normally take a look see.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'm not the one that needs to comment as I don't have the timing information for that stove. Mike last posted back on February 20 but was on the site at 3:01 PM yesterday.

Just to hurry things along give them a call and stuff. Operating under the squeaky wheel rules of the road with that suggestion. He doesn't have to pay attention to a PM from me as I'm not a customer not that he wouldn't normally take a look see.

I think the manufacturers and reps are at a show someplace warm and sunny this week......................

 

[acammer]

I sent over the photos and requested a call back from management. We'll see what happens next.

 

[rexrules]

Did you hear back from yet? I am ready to order a new burn pot for a 25ep, but I want to see if there was ever a resolution to your issues.

 

[acammer]

Did you hear back from yet? I am ready to order a new burn pot for a 25ep, but I want to see if there was ever a resolution to your issues.

I received the following reply from Englander last week:

"That is very uncommon of the burnpots to do that. All of the burnpots we make are made from the same metal. What is the ash content per pound of the pellets you are using and are the preimum hardwood? I am not familar with that speific brand and just would like to get as much information as I can to check with the burn lab. We have not had any other customers experience what you are expericencing with the burnpots. This stove has been on the market for 5 years and several of our ownl techs here use that same stove and have never experienced anything like that. On average burnpot have been lasting about 3 years. I will be more than happy to send you another replacement but would like the feed back regarding the pellets so that I can find out with our burn lab."

I received a 4th burn pot Friday. Looks just like all the other ones did when they were new. This one has a a bunch of spatter on the bottom of the sealing flange from the welds, I'll knock that off with a screwdriver before I put it into service so it doesn't have any sealing issues. I provided Englander with all the details I could gather about my fuel, and I told them I would hold off on using this pot until I was able to secure alternate fuel. Turns out that it's been quite a scramble for pellets in central New York and NOBODY has any. I'm just gonna keep calling around, but it's not looking good, at least for the short term. I've also offered to send them back one of the old pots for analysis, so far they haven't taken me up on it, but they may be waiting to complete their research on the fuel.

So, overall they've been extremely stand up about this. I just want to get a pot that lasts - hopefully it turns out it really is something with the fuel and it's solved that easily. But, I wouldn't rule out a metallurgy issue either, these things are just flaking and crumbling way too quickly. The newest pot I have is the worse, it has big flakes of metal that fall of it every time I clean it up!

I'll keep everyone posted. @OhioBurner© - How is your new pot holding up? Still flaking apart?

 

[mchasal]

My new pot (from the previous thread) has been running about 6 weeks and it is starting to show some of the same signs. Bits of metal flaking off. It hasn't gotten anywhere near what my other one was, but I doubt it will last the 3 years they're saying should be the useful life.

I'm a bit surprised about their claim of ignorance here, @stoveguy2esw has been tagged in several of these threads, but I guess he doesn't necessarily talk to everyone at the company about what's going on here. The lack of comment in any of these threads is a bit distressing too. I suppose I could have highlighted why I was buying the new pot, but I was out of warranty and figured I'd just buy it, at least the first one.

The concern about the ash content troubles me as well. Shouldn't a stove be designed and built to handle commonly available fuels? I can understand lousy pellets causing dirtier burns and needing more cleaning but actually destroying the burn pot in a few weeks shouldn't be happening. I could also understand if you were burning some non-approved fuel, like maybe grass pellets, corn, or pits in a stove not rated for it, but one should not have to conduct an analysis of their fuel in order to keep the stove from self destructing.

I've been burning the one's from Lowes, (North American's blend) and they certainly are ashy and I find I have to empty the ash pan about twice as often, but if I'm going to need to 3 burn pots a year, I'm going to have to reevaluate things.

 

[EviLScotsMaN]

I have a 25-PAH, my first burnpot lasted 2 years, my second burnpot cracked less than a year. I just called England stove works, I missed the warranty on that burnpot by less than a month...FML!! We shouldn't have to buy new burnpots once or even twice a year for some.