28-3500 in the basement with a 30+ foot chimney?

[Swamp_Yankee]

In our house currently is an old coal stove on the first floor that is vented through about 24' of Selkirk Class A chimney which runs up an outside wall:

The chimney is in good shape and I'm guessing was replaced at some point because the stove itself dates to the early 80s according to the literature the previous owner left. The wife wants to "reclaim" the space currently occupied with the stove as it's adjacent to the dining room (long story). However, if I ran the chimney down another three or four sections I could tee it through the basement wall. I have 8 sections (24') of Selkirk chimney along with an Englander 28-3500 furnace from my old house. Hooking up the chimney and getting it mounted is fairly straightforward, but would 33-36' of chimney produce excessive draft?

 

[brenndatomu]

Hooking up the chimney and getting it mounted is fairly straightforward, but would 33-36' of chimney produce excessive draft?

Probably...but since that is a manual furnace, you can install a manual damper in the stove pipe...or a barometric damper...but I might lean manual damper on a manual furnace.

 

[mustash29]

I ran a 28-3500 for 3 seasons. It sat in my walk out mud room and was connected to 24' of triple wall class A that ran up through the center of the house. Never had a draft issue, it actually pulled really good. The stove pipe had a key damper in it and I needed that on really cold or windy days to help slow it down. That furnace was way overfill for my 1800 sqft. I had to run it too slow so it ran dirty. I switched back to the stove.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

I ran a 28-3500 for 3 seasons. It sat in my walk out mud room and was connected to 24' of triple wall class A that ran up through the center of the house. Never had a draft issue, it actually pulled really good. The stove pipe had a key damper in it and I needed that on really cold or windy days to help slow it down. That furnace was way overfill for my 1800 sqft. I had to run it too slow so it ran dirty. I switched back to the stove.

The house is 2600 SF but no ductwork (hydronic baseboard). I plan on running it wide open and just dumping tons of heat into the leaky, 150+ year old rubblestone basement. I figure that a fair amount of heat should make it to at least the first floor. I may even put some floor grates in eventually.

 

[brenndatomu]

The house is 2600 SF but no ductwork (hydronic baseboard). I plan on running it wide open and just dumping tons of heat into the leaky, 150+ year old rubblestone basement. I figure that a fair amount of heat should make it to at least the first floor. I may even put some floor grates in eventually.

That sounds like a recipe for disappointment. You will be amazed how much heat the basement will absorb.
I'd highly recommend running a couple ducts to the upstairs...doesn't need to be fancy, just a couple to get the heat up where you want/need it. I did this at my sisters place...2 registers to the hallway, then the return air is just an open stairway at the other end of the house, works pretty well. The only thing that gets a little cool is the family room which is beyond the basement door...they just fire up the insert stove in the fireplace if they want more heat in the FR.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

That sounds like a recipe for disappointment. You will be amazed how much heat the basement will absorb.
I'd highly recommend running a couple ducts to the upstairs...doesn't need to be fancy, just a couple to get the heat up where you want/need it. I did this at my sisters place...2 registers to the hallway, then the return air is just an open stairway at the other end of the house, works pretty well. The only thing that gets a little cool is the family room which is beyond the basement door...they just fire up the insert stove in the fireplace if they want more heat in the FR.

I've heard a little of both honestly, and I'd bet it depends heavily on the conditions present in the house. I already have the furnace and the chimney pipe just sitting around doing nothing, so I'll set it up so that it just dumps into the basement for now. If I feel its not performing well enough I'll go to the next step and run some ductwork. The previous owner had a massive old steam boiler for years that threw a ton of heat into the basement in the process of producing steam for the upper floors. He said that he liked the fact that the floors on the first floor always felt warm underfoot, and obviously that heat was radiating up into the house. When that old beast finally died he installed a Buderus boiler, got rid of the old cast iron radiators and converted to hot water baseboard. Much more efficient, obviously, but no more warm floors. In fact the installer actually added a loop of fin and tube in the basement just to keep it above freezing because the fear was that pipes might freeze since the new boiler wasn't radiating anywhere near as much heat as the old one.

 

[brenndatomu]

Yeah can't anymore than give it a shot...like you said, can always add ducts later.
Those old coal fired things made a ton of heat...had to, the houses all leaked like screen doors back then!
This place had a big ole coal fired forced air furnace...was converted to fuel oil many moons ago. I pulled it out when I installed my Yukon furnace, what a beast! I was actually pretty impressed by the overall design of that old thing, some of them were kinda crude, not this one!
The 28-3500 will probably radiate a lil more heat to the basement than the boiler does...I would think

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Yeah can't anymore than give it a shot...like you said, can always add ducts later.
Those old coal fired things made a ton of heat...had to, the houses all leaked like screen doors back then!

The previous owner said that even when it was in the single digits outside the basement was high 70s. Low 80s in the area closest to the boiler.

 

[maple1]

Sounds like a place where you'd have to watch your pipes really close - it doesn't take much cold air coming in around the top of a basement wall to freeze a pipe real quick.

Is there any insulation at all down there, around the top of the wall? Rimjoist area? Where it is above ground outside? If not that should be the first place to get attention and would make a huge difference. And maybe not too big a challenge. Relatively speaking & all depending....

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Sounds like a place where you'd have to watch your pipes really close - it doesn't take much cold air coming in around the top of a basement wall to freeze a pipe real quick.

Is there any insulation at all down there, around the top of the wall? Rimjoist area? Where it is above ground outside? If not that should be the first place to get attention and would make a huge difference. And maybe not too big a challenge. Relatively speaking & all depending....

The rim joists have fiberglass stuffed in them and some air sealing (Great Stuff) was done over the years. Right now with the fin and tube loop around the perimeter it stays around 60°F even on the coldest days.

 

[maple1]

It's also one place that is key for air sealing (that and ceilings). Stack effect can pull air in through fiberglass if there isn't an air barrier too. I went around mine & sealed in pieces of vapor barrier with accoustical sealant, over the fiberglass. That was a big PITA, don't think I'd do it that way again. Would likely cut pieces of foam bard to fit & stick them there with the spray foam from a can. Although that's kind of a PITA too - but should be less than plastic & caulking.

 

[mustash29]

When I was running the 28-3500 I was dumping the heat into the rec room. I never used the factory blower. Instead I ran none, one or two 4" muffin fans (depending on how much heat I wanted) blowing at the factory air intake where the factory blower is supposed to be.

The house is a tri level with an offset living room. Rec room would routinely be 80 - 90. I have a 10" HD muffin fan in the rec room ceiling that is necked down to 8" then down to a 6" duct that runs about 6 feet and blows into the master bath. That keeps the master bath & hallway a toasty 70+. The front bedrooms run a bit cooler.

The kitchen & dining are above the rec room so they stay 70+ with warm hardwood floors. The living room is a 12' ceiling and is sunken 1/2 flight down from the upstairs (and 1/2 flight above the rec room) and it stays warm too. The living end of the house is an open floor plan with an open foyer down to the LR and rec room so everything naturally circulates pretty well.

Even without fans, the 28-3500 will radiate like a mofo.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

I think at this point we've established that I should be able to find a workable solution to heating the first floor one way or the other with the 28-3500 in the basement. The next issue to figure out is the chimney. Unfortunately my solution of simply extending the chimney down and going through the block wall isn't really workable as it would put the furnace about 3' from the oil tanks which I hadn't realized until I actually went down and measured. Here is the proposed workaround: Remove the window on the far right and brick up the opening, save a hole for a wall thimble. Run the flue out the thimble to a cleanout tee, which would then be connected to a 45° elbow, a short section of straight pipe, another 45° elbow, and finally cleanout tee into the existing chimney:

I know that this is a lot of bends (I guess I have to check code to see what it all adds up to and if it would be permissible in the first place), but assuming it meets muster I would hope that the overall height of the chimney would negate any negative effects on draft caused by the number of bends-maybe it would balance out and I wouldn't need a damper? Finally, the two tees would ensure easy cleaning of all parts of the flue from the comfort and safety of terra firma.

 

[maple1]

Can you move the oil tanks a bit? Or put a partition in between?

Do you know how far you need to be from an oil tank?

All of this I am thinking no matter which way you go might need an OK from your insurance person. So I would likely go to them right now before finalizing plans.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Can you move the oil tanks a bit? Or put a partition in between?

Moving the tanks is not an option (at least for now) and I don't really like the idea of a partition. That part of the basement is dirt floor. I do have a rider on my homeowners policy to cover fuel oil discharge and related cleanup expenses, but I like being able to see them easily and know right away if there's a leak.

Do you know how far you need to be from an oil tank?

I've seen different standards between NFPA and local codes and I need to see what would govern in this case. Here is what NPFA 31.7.5.7 has to say about it:

As you can see NFPA allows for either a fire rated wall between the appliance and the tank(s) or at least 5' of clearance. Again, I'd rather not close the tanks in-going through the window on the far right would give me at least 6' of clearance, possibly more.

All of this I am thinking no matter which way you go might need an OK from your insurance person. So I would likely go to them right now before finalizing plans.

I've been through this rodeo with my insurance company before when I installed the 28-3500 in my old house (insured by the same company)-I told them exactly what I was doing and they stated that as long as any and all required permits were pulled in accordance with state and local regulations that it was fine with them. They conducted no inspections of their own nor required any documentation. Obviously if a fire were ever to occur their first stop would be the local (in our case, the state as we have no local inspectors) building department to see if permits were pulled and properly closed out. At this point I'm interested in feedback on the chimney and how well (or not well) it might work. If it shows promise I'll then pursue making sure that the placement of the furnace in relation to the oil tanks is code compliant.

 

[brenndatomu]

Can you go straight down with the chimney and then just run the stovepipe at a 45* angle down and to the side to gain the room you need? Would be cheaper/easier/better IMO...

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Can you go straight down with the chimney and then just run the stovepipe at a 45* angle down and to the side to gain the room you need? Would be cheaper/easier/better IMO...

I'm not sure I follow-I thought that's what I was doing? Any chance you can put up a sketch of what you're proposing?

 

[maple1]

I'm not sure I follow-I thought that's what I was doing? Any chance you can put up a sketch of what you're proposing?

I think he means go down and in with the chimney, then go 45 after you get in.

 

[brenndatomu]

I think he means go down and in with the chimney, then go 45 after you get in.

This ^^^

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

I think he means go down and in with the chimney, then go 45 after you get in.

I see now-I had originally missed the fact that he said "stovepipe." So if I was to bring the Class A straight down and come through the block wall, by the time I came through the wall I might be too low to make the 5-6' run over to where the furnace would be since I'd have to maintain a slope of at least 1/4" per foot. I'll try to measure it out when I get home tonight. As long as I can get a decent slope I could run double wall stove pipe the whole length. IIRC the 28-3500 allows for a maximum 6' horizontal run of stove pipe. The windows are a little deceptive from the outside as far as the height of the interior. The basement floor is only 24-36" below the grade shown in the photo. I am 5' 10" and have to crouch a bit when I'm down there. That whole area was once a porch that was enclosed years ago.

 

[brenndatomu]

So if I was to bring the Class A straight down and come through the block wall, by the time I came through the wall I'd be too low to make the 5-6' run over to where the furnace would be since I'd have to maintain a slope of at least 1/4" per foot.

Short basement?

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

Short basement?

Yup-I edited my post above. After I hit "post reply" I realized you were probably assuming at least a 7' - 0" ceiling height.

 

[Swamp_Yankee]

I did some poking around downstairs just now and I think I was able to not only finalize my plan for the chimney and furnace placement, but also ductwork. Its actually a fairly convenient and straightforward run to go from the proposed location of the furnace to the foot of the stairs leading from the 1st floor to the 2nd. I could put a large floor register in right at the foot of the steps that would kill two birds with one stone.