A few insert installation - 5 questions - liner, liner insulation, insert surround panel, heat shiel

[jimtmcdaniels]

Ok I still have a few installation questions, looking for some input, installing an insert in my 1900 downtown 2 story house in Colorado Springs CO, corner of wall living room fireplace. The insert is the morso model 1710 flush mount :

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Q1. Is this chimney liner installation considered a tight fit/challenge? and
Is this the best choice of liner set up to go down my chimney design?

I'm thinking the 316 TI .006 thickness ss flex with 1/2 inch wrap (don't want to dump bags of vermiculite in it) is the best to go with if it will all fit.
My approx. 25 foot mason chinmey interior is 10 inches square, it's s straight drop then the throat is offset a bit, with no damper. The insert calls for a 6 inch liner, if I add insulation to the liner, that's I guess about 7 1/2 inches altogether.

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Q2. To insulate the 6 inch liner OR not to insulate:
I don't want to go cheap but I also don't want to go ineffecient:
The room the chimney is in is an interior 10 foot wall and the chimney goes throught MY upstairs bedroom on it's way to the roof and the chimney is in good condition.
I've read one person say that if the chimney is in an interior wall, then it's best not to insulate the liner to allow it to help heat the chimney mass.
I know that the insulation is to help contain a chimney fire and also to keep the gases from cooling too much which could reduce the draft and increase buildup on the liner interior surface.
BUT I also know that the original design of the red brick mason fireplace and chimney is to act as a heat mass to store and then dissipate the heat into the house.
The insert is the morso model 1710 flush mount 39,000 btu unit if that helps.
Does anyone know the definative answer to this q?

The insulation kit is $270.... wow. so if I may obtain some chimney heat mass if I don't insulate, I'll prob do that.
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Q3. Insert surround panel choices:
Of course, I'm going to install a block off plate at the bottom of the chimney neck, but I need to also purchase a surround panel.

There's going to be just a few inches to the sides and top and back of the insert to the fireplace opening brick interior walls.
People say that there is some heat produced by the insert's sides and top and back, how hot is this???
People seem to say that instead of this heat going into the fireplace's brick creating heat mass, the insert would be more effecient (if like a free standing stove) if there was no surround covering the ugly gap between the fireplace opening and the insert so this heat could get directly into the room.

SO to hide the ugly gap (it would be ugly for mine) AND let this heat get directly into the room, it sounds like the IDEAL surround panel is a metal plate that has many small holes in it's surface.
Enough holes, large enough to allow air movement but small enough so you can't see through it.
Q. Does anyone make a panel like this, or one that allows the same air flow, hmm is there a good spray paint too for it??

Otherwise I guess I'll just have to install a regular air tight surround panel and add fiberglass insulation in the insert's top, side and back gaps and whatever heat gets through the insulation will just add to the fireplace's heat mass.. and hopefully into the house to some degree

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Q 4. If I can resonably, I want to assure the min top and sides combustibles distance by adding side and top lips around the insert.
How far should these metal lips protrude from the insert to be effective and how can these be made or are they easily purchased?

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Q 5. This insert does not offer a blower.
Should I look at a way to blow/move the air for effeciency?
Does a ceiling fan help a lot with moving the heat into adjoining rooms, that may be my best option?

That's it.... Thank-you again

 

[BrotherBart]

Q 5. This insert does not offer a blower.
Should I look at a way to blow/move the air for effeciency?
Does a ceiling fan help a lot with moving the heat into adjoining rooms, that may be my best option?

Which insert did you decide on?

EDIT: Sorry. Just re-read the post and found the stove.

 

[Rhone]

Personally, installing a liner is not too difficult. A pain, yes but otherwise certainly doable by a DIYer. The best, would be to get flex for the lower part and rigid for the upper. Mine is that way, and you get an adapter that transitions flex to rigid. My chimney offsets, I have about 5' of flex pipe at the bottom of my 16' of rigid. With rigid, must fasten them together with stainless steel pop rivits. I first tried stainless sheet metal screws which seperates the two pieces creating non-tight joints, the threads on the screws stripped, had hardly any of the screws holding my liner together. Plus, with constant expanding/contracting only pop-rivits are pretty certain to hold.

Doubt you'll have trouble if your flue is currently 10". It's not easy fitting a 6" liner in a 7" flue when you consider the flue tiles are usually a little skewed and mortar sticks in, you should not have much trouble fitting a 6" liner with insulation in a 10" flue particularly if the insulation is thin. You're plenty fine on a draft stand point if you don't insulate, but the real reason you may be required to insulate is if your current chimney does not meet safety standards, or perhaps it's damaged the insulation would then be required.

Way too much thought on Q3. The sides, back, etc. get warm, not particularly hot. Most surrounds of inserts aren't tight, they have gaps, spaces, etc. I have a Hearthstone Clydesdale and have the top pulled away from the fireplace 1/2" and no one has noticed. I get a little bit of heat that rises out that 1/2" but nothing compared to the amount blowing out. I have a block-off.

Q4 are you saying you want to add heat shields to the heat shields already built into the insert?

I think you can't add blowers/fans to the insert at this point. Your unit wasn't designed/spec'd having them so adding them may interfere with its operation or performance. Also, probably against code at this point. Your insert will list a certain "clearance to combustibles" in front, adding your own home made blower/fan will mean you need to keep it that distance away at least. Most have the blowers at the bottom, which keeps them cool. Maybe you can set a fan that will blow the air towards the lower vents and it will probably help but, again that fan must be at least the minimum clearances in front away.

 

[Gooserider]

Ok I still have a few installation questions, looking for some input, installing an insert in my 1900 downtown 2 story house in Colorado Springs CO, corner of wall living room fireplace:
Q1. Is this chimney liner installation considered a tight fit/challenge? and
Is this the best choice of liner set up to go down my chimney design?

I'm thinking the 316 TI .006 thickness ss flex with 1/2 inch wrap (don't want to dump bags of vermiculite in it) is the best to go with if it will all fit.
My approx. 25 foot mason chinmey interior is 10 inches square, it's s straight drop then the throat is offset a bit, with no damper. The insert calls for a 6 inch liner, if I add insulation to the liner, that's I guess about 7 1/2 inches altogether.

Shouldn't be a big problem, a 10" square flue is plenty roomy for an insulated liner. I would second the earlier suggestion of looking at a rigid + flex combo, but all flex will also work OK. Rigid costs a little more, but some is pre-insulated, and it's a little easier to clean, and some claim it drafts slightly better.

Q2. To insulate the 6 inch liner OR not to insulate:
I don't want to go cheap but I also don't want to go ineffecient:
The room the chimney is in is an interior 10 foot wall and the chimney goes throught MY upstairs bedroom on it's way to the roof and the chimney is in good condition.
I've read one person say that if the chimney is in an interior wall, then it's best not to insulate the liner to allow it to help heat the chimney mass.
I know that the insulation is to help contain a chimney fire and also to keep the gases from cooling too much which could reduce the draft and increase buildup on the liner interior surface.
BUT I also know that the original design of the red brick mason fireplace and chimney is to act as a heat mass to store and then dissipate the heat into the house.
The insert is the morso model 1710 flush mount 39,000 btu unit if that helps.
Does anyone know the definative answer to this q?

The insulation kit is $270.... wow. so if I may obtain some chimney heat mass if I don't insulate, I'll prob do that.

Given that you are on an interior wall, it won't hurt you a lot not to insulate, but I tend to favor it, especially in cold climates and when looking for major heating. It's a tradeoff with no absolute answer, bu I think the benefits of insulation are better overall. Note that it is more important to insulate the top part of the chimney, so you might split the difference by getting a shorter insulation kit. If you don't insulate, it might be worth picking up some rock wool bats and trying to stuff some in around the length of chimney that sticks out of the house.

Q3. Insert surround panel choices:
Of course, I'm going to install a block off plate at the bottom of the chimney neck, but I need to also purchase a surround panel.

There's going to be just a few inches to the sides and top and back of the insert to the fireplace opening brick interior walls.
People say that there is some heat produced by the insert's sides and top and back, how hot is this???
People seem to say that instead of this heat going into the fireplace's brick creating heat mass, the insert would be more effecient (if like a free standing stove) if there was no surround covering the ugly gap between the fireplace opening and the insert so this heat could get directly into the room.

SO to hide the ugly gap (it would be ugly for mine) AND let this heat get directly into the room, it sounds like the IDEAL surround panel is a metal plate that has many small holes in it's surface.
Enough holes, large enough to allow air movement but small enough so you can't see through it.
Q. Does anyone make a panel like this, or one that allows the same air flow, hmm is there a good spray paint too for it??

Otherwise I guess I'll just have to install a regular air tight surround panel and add fiberglass insulation in the insert's top, side and back gaps and whatever heat gets through the insulation will just add to the fireplace's heat mass.. and hopefully into the house to some degree

Stove Bright paint is good for anything that sees heat around a stove, but use it outside, the stuff is acetone based, and needs SERIOUS ventilation when using it. For the surround, you might consider using expanded steel, or one of the various styles of stamped steel sheets.

Q 4. If I can resonably, I want to assure the min top and sides combustibles distance by adding side and top lips around the insert.
How far should these metal lips protrude from the insert to be effective and how can these be made or are they easily purchased?

What is it you are trying to increase the clearances to? For the most part, this shouldn't make a difference, if it does, you need to be looking for specifics in your manual and planning for them ahead of time. There really isn't much benefit in reducing clearance distances unless you NEED to.

Q 5. This insert does not offer a blower.
Should I look at a way to blow/move the air for effeciency?
Does a ceiling fan help a lot with moving the heat into adjoining rooms, that may be my best option?

Ceiling fans are generally a big help. Most inserts either come with a blower, or have one as an option, which I think is worth getting. If you can't get a blower for the insert as a factory item, I'd try it without and see what happens, if it doesn't do well for you, then try pointing a small fan at the lower intakes, or do other stuff to increase airflow. This is the sort of thing that is different in every setup and takes experimenting to figure out.

That's it.... Thank-you again

Your welcome,

Gooserider