Adding firebrick questions

[Orerockon]

OK so I have a rather long story. I have an early 2000s Appalachian 32-BW and I got sick of the firebrick breaking and falling down. So I went online and got some USC "ceramic materials" bricks. It's not as dense as the original brick, kinda sandy and lighter than the old bricks which look like they're white ceramic and a lot heavier. But it's not anything that got garbage reviews (like, it melts, disintegrates, weighs as much as a piece of styrofoam). I did too much research and based on what I found I decided to line the bottom and extend the brick up the sides in order to retain heat overnight. It came with one row of upright bricks around the sides. But the tab that hold up back row of bricks is 1-1/4" high (the sides are taller) and there's an exactly 1-1/4" lip on the front of the floor (the thickness of the bricks) which leads me to believe that it was meant to be used with a firebrick floor.

So I lined the floor (covering up the slots for the ash pan which I've never even used) and cut more bricks that I want to put on top of the side bricks horizontally so they reach the top of the walls. I cut them to fit pretty snug with just a couple odd shape small gaps where I would need just a sliver of brick to fill them. I'm concerned about them falling down (which I'm sure will happen too often) so I looked around and decided to get the Rutland Furnace Cement. I called a local woodstove store because I only have the weekend to get it done. They said they had it so I went to pick it up and they tried to sell me a $10 mini tube of high temp gasket cement. When I said that they told me they had furnace cement they launched into an interrogation about my stove and why I would do that. They were cagey about answering anything (they said it was "dangerous" but refused to say why that would be) and I left convinced that they never were going to sell me the cement, it was just to get me into the store so they could trash my stove and sell me a new one. As you can probably tell I'm wary about getting scammed, I've been baited too many times (contractors that crapped all over things like my insulation which I damn well know is more than enough, tried to sell me a $15000 shingle roof, insisted that my kitchen floor would collapse with ceramic tile and hardybacker on top of the original floor).

So to get around to my questions. Why would it be dangerous to add another layer on the walls and line the floor? That sounds silly to me. Will the furnace cement work to get the second row of bricks to stay put? Do I cement the bricks onto the bottom row which is held up bu the tabs or onto the walls? Should I cement the floor bricks and the bottom row of the walls in? I attached a photo of the layout that I came up with.

Also (and I can separate these into separate posts if necessary) I've had my pipe replaced twice. Both times it was because the chimney was being cleaned. Before I fired it up for the season I had it done again, and was told that it needed to be replaced. I'm getting the sense that I'm being scammed. It's not like I burn pine or anything full of creosote. I'm burning 90%+ bigleaf maple, sweetgum, white oak, occasionally with a few other hardwoods (I'm an opportunistic wood gatherer, never bought from a commercial seller in my lifetime and if it ain't free I usually take a pass). I use the cresote powder like the tub says I should.

Also, how do I tell if the catalytic combustor needs to be replaced? I swear the efficiency has dropped over the years, I only use good hardwoods and I'm running through more than I used to. I haven't changed when/how I run the stove at all. It's a FireCat and their website says it's discontinued.

 

[Mech e]

I don't think the dealer was scamming you. Modifying the stove voids the UL listing and they don't want any liability.

I have had the same stove pipe on my stove for 32 years and it is still in good shape. I would ask specifically why it needs to be replaced and ask to see the damage.

 

[Couver]

I think they were trying to keep you safe. Manufacturers test their products for the best efficiency and safety before they send them out the door. I would like to think any reputable place would be helpful first and a sale second.

 

[Orerockon]

I see where you're coming from but the fact that they refused to answer any of my questions still makes me suspicious. They could have just said that.

 

[bholler]

I see where you're coming from but the fact that they refused to answer any of my questions still makes me suspicious. They could have just said that.

They did say that. And were unwilling to help.you modify your stove as I would have been.

And for the record there is absolutely nothing wrong with burning pine. It makes no more creosote when dry than dry hardwoods. And it dries much faster.

What pipes are bring replaced and why? How often are they being replaced?

 

[begreen]

The combustor, if original, is very likely at the end of its life. Does it have the odd notch? If so it looks like Midwest sells it. Not sure if this one takes a gasket or not. Good to check.

Catalytic Combustor Appalachian (2.5

Midwest Hearth MH-19N replacement combustors are a high-quality choice for your catalytic wood burning stove.Replacing your old combustor will help you improve your stove's efficiency, saving you money and producing less pollution. split Catalytic Combustor FAQ Catalytic Combustor Warranty...

midwesthearth.com

I don't see any harm in what you have done with the firebrick, but it does void the UL certification because the stove has been altered from the tested configuration. A lot of firebrick breakage occurs from wood being thrown into the firebox instead of being placed there. Our stove's firebrick is going on 12 yrs old. The only cracked bricks are on the back, where I chucked in a heavy split into a hot stove. Eventually I will replace or move them to the firebox floor.

 

[Mech e]

Just so you know, fire brick is a thermal insulator. This means it will be more difficult to transfer the heat from the fire to the surface of the stove.

 

[begreen]

Just so you know, fire brick is a thermal insulator. This means it will be more difficult to transfer the heat from the fire to the surface of the stove.

Also, the fire will burn a bit hotter. Most of the heat transfer occurs at the top of the stove and the front. That will remain unaffected.

 

[Orerockon]

Also, the fire will burn a bit hotter. Most of the heat transfer occurs at the top of the stove and the front. That will remain unaffected.

I did quite a bit of reading and I honestly don't know what is actually the case. I do know that heating the inside of my fireplace (it's an insert) is not one of my goals with this project

 

[bholler]

I did quite a bit of reading and I honestly don't know what is actually the case. I do know that heating the inside of my fireplace (it's an insert) is not one of my goals with this project

Then you would want to insulate around the insert outside the convective jacket not inside it.

 

[Orerockon]

I go for BTUs I didn't know that it doesn't produce more creosote I was told the opposite by the guy who did my chimney before I had the pipe. They replaced the flex pipe from wherever it connects to the top of the chimney.

 

[Orerockon]

I found the CC here only $90 so I bought it in case I would need it. Looks like I do. The same as the manual says. https://www.stove-parts-unlimited.com/buck-26000-27000-28000-catalytic-combustor-aci-1-p/aci-1.htm

Sorry I can't figure out the quote thing it doesn't seem to do anything.

 

[Orerockon]

Then you would want to insulate around the insert outside the convective jacket not inside it.

Yeah I had thought of it but the thing is so damn tight all I would be able to do is shove a bunch of fiberglass matting around it. Which makes me very nervous.

 

[Orerockon]

The combustor, if original, is very likely at the end of its life. Does it have the odd notch? If so it looks like Midwest sells it. Not sure if this one takes a gasket or not. Good to check.

Catalytic Combustor Appalachian (2.5

Midwest Hearth MH-19N replacement combustors are a high-quality choice for your catalytic wood burning stove.Replacing your old combustor will help you improve your stove's efficiency, saving you money and producing less pollution. split Catalytic Combustor FAQ Catalytic Combustor Warranty...

midwesthearth.com

I don't see any harm in what you have done with the firebrick, but it does void the UL certification because the stove has been altered from the tested configuration. A lot of firebrick breakage occurs from wood being thrown into the firebox instead of being placed there. Our stove's firebrick is going on 12 yrs old. The only cracked bricks are on the back, where I chucked in a heavy split into a hot stove. Eventually I will replace or move them to the firebox floor.

I would never through a chunk of wood in my stove like that, so there must be some other cause. NOT!

 

[bholler]

Yeah I had thought of it but the thing is so damn tight all I would be able to do is shove a bunch of fiberglass matting around it. Which makes me very nervous.

Do not use fiberglass

 

[SpaceBus]

Some people have had success using rock wool around and above the insert. Ultimately that insulation just slows down the transfer of heat, so you will eventually heat up the fireplace anyway no matter what you do.

 

[bholler]

I go for BTUs I didn't know that it doesn't produce more creosote I was told the opposite by the guy who did my chimney before I had the pipe. They replaced the flex pipe from wherever it connects to the top of the chimney.

We need a bit more info. They replaced the stainless liner?? Why and after how long? What type of liner and did you have a fire that damaged it?

I generally don't burn softwoods either because of lack of btus. But if the hardwood isn't dry you will get less out of them

 

[Orerockon]

Yes they replaced the liner. The chimney is brick and they put the liner in when I changed out the stove. It was maybe 4 years when they said it needed to be replaced, I can't remember why. I'm not sure how a fire woudl damage it, maybe too hot? Even with the combustor on my stove doesn't get burning hot. After that I started using a different sweep. and they haven't said it needed to be replaced since then. If they do I will ask them to show me how and why before I give them the go ahead. Still waiting for my new combustors & temp probe 2 weeks after I ordered them. Grrr. Then I will do a test and see if anything changes. I think knowing the temp at the combustor is going to be the key to running it most efficiently and cut way down on the smoke. According to my new General moisture meter the oak & maple that's been in the barn for over a year is under 20%. But I'm struggling to get a good reading on the stuff I've been splitting the past couple months. According to it everything is under 30% which just can't be right. Some of it was oozing sap when I split it (Doug fir, it was free so I couldn't pass it up but I may give it to my neighbor cuz I ran into a huge maple that's been down 2 years and will fill up the rest of the barn lol).

 

[Orerockon]

SpaceBus Yeah I figured as much. Do you think stuffing it around the pipe where it enters the chimney would help? There's a big space around it.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

OK so I have a rather long story. I have an early 2000s Appalachian 32-BW and I got sick of the firebrick breaking and falling down. So I went online and got some USC "ceramic materials" bricks. It's not as dense as the original brick, kinda sandy and lighter than the old bricks which look like they're white ceramic and a lot heavier. But it's not anything that got garbage reviews (like, it melts, disintegrates, weighs as much as a piece of styrofoam). I did too much research and based on what I found I decided to line the bottom and extend the brick up the sides in order to retain heat overnight. It came with one row of upright bricks around the sides. But the tab that hold up back row of bricks is 1-1/4" high (the sides are taller) and there's an exactly 1-1/4" lip on the front of the floor (the thickness of the bricks) which leads me to believe that it was meant to be used with a firebrick floor.

So I lined the floor (covering up the slots for the ash pan which I've never even used) and cut more bricks that I want to put on top of the side bricks horizontally so they reach the top of the walls. I cut them to fit pretty snug with just a couple odd shape small gaps where I would need just a sliver of brick to fill them. I'm concerned about them falling down (which I'm sure will happen too often) so I looked around and decided to get the Rutland Furnace Cement. I called a local woodstove store because I only have the weekend to get it done. They said they had it so I went to pick it up and they tried to sell me a $10 mini tube of high temp gasket cement. When I said that they told me they had furnace cement they launched into an interrogation about my stove and why I would do that. They were cagey about answering anything (they said it was "dangerous" but refused to say why that would be) and I left convinced that they never were going to sell me the cement, it was just to get me into the store so they could trash my stove and sell me a new one. As you can probably tell I'm wary about getting scammed, I've been baited too many times (contractors that crapped all over things like my insulation which I damn well know is more than enough, tried to sell me a $15000 shingle roof, insisted that my kitchen floor would collapse with ceramic tile and hardybacker on top of the original floor).

So to get around to my questions. Why would it be dangerous to add another layer on the walls and line the floor? That sounds silly to me. Will the furnace cement work to get the second row of bricks to stay put? Do I cement the bricks onto the bottom row which is held up bu the tabs or onto the walls? Should I cement the floor bricks and the bottom row of the walls in? I attached a photo of the layout that I came up with.

Also (and I can separate these into separate posts if necessary) I've had my pipe replaced twice. Both times it was because the chimney was being cleaned. Before I fired it up for the season I had it done again, and was told that it needed to be replaced. I'm getting the sense that I'm being scammed. It's not like I burn pine or anything full of creosote. I'm burning 90%+ bigleaf maple, sweetgum, white oak, occasionally with a few other hardwoods (I'm an opportunistic wood gatherer, never bought from a commercial seller in my lifetime and if it ain't free I usually take a pass). I use the cresote powder like the tub says I should.

Also, how do I tell if the catalytic combustor needs to be replaced? I swear the efficiency has dropped over the years, I only use good hardwoods and I'm running through more than I used to. I haven't changed when/how I run the stove at all. It's a FireCat and their website says it's discontinued.

I'd suggest you break down your questions so there are no more than 1-3 per post, and keep them related.

My experience is that less than 50% of anyone you deal with is "reputable". Even someone who was at one time, may not be the next time. Just the times that we live in. Trust your instincts if you are sane.

I do think you could probably use some more insulation in your house, you probably need more life insurance, a couple of timeshares, and your car needs an extended warranty.

I think you get my point.

 

[nortcan]

Very nice job on the liner, clean and will be efficient to get the fire burning hotter and burn cleaner. Plus you protect the stoves surfaces.

Stove makers have always the best when they release a new product, then after a few years they have something better for the same stove and so on and on just like everything on the market...like cars, computers...but the changes MUST come from THEM, not you or me!...

 

[SpaceBus]

This is all an effect of our litigious society, which I don't entirely condemn.

 

[stoveliker]

Some people have had success using rock wool around and above the insert. Ultimately that insulation just slows down the transfer of heat, so you will eventually heat up the fireplace anyway no matter what you do.

No. Insulation works by keeping a larger temperature difference (gradient) over it's thickness (than no insulation) because of the lower heat conductivity of the insulation. Therefore, with the same insert temperature, the fireplace will be cooler in steady state heat flow.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

No. Insulation works by keeping a larger temperature difference (gradient) over it's thickness (than no insulation) because of the lower heat conductivity of the insulation. Therefore, with the same insert temperature, the fireplace will be cooler in steady state heat flow.

Whatch you talkin' bout, Willis?

 

[SpaceBus]

Assuming the house never cools down that masonry will be the same temperature as the house at the very least given enough time. If the region is cool enough and the appliance never stops burning then eventually that masonry will get even warmer than the rest of the house.