Advice on new stove

[Doc C]

Hello everyone,
I bought an Englander 30 stove a couple years ago for our 1908 square foot 2 story house. When we bought it the stove had no problem keeping the house warm.

Fast forward a couple years and we have reinsulated the entire house, air sealed, new windows and doors and now the stove is WAY to much stove for the house.

Last year I burned just over 2 cords of wood, and had to have over half the windows wide open while running the stove so slow that the chimney completely clogged after just 6 weeks of use. I had to clean the chimney once a month last winter because I had to run the stove so slow that it was just very smoky all the time. Even very small fires would cook us out of the house. Also it had a problem blowing smoke back in the house because it was always smoldering.

There is no way I can run this again this winter.

I think englander makes decent stoves so I was thinking about going with the 13NC but I worry about having to start a fire every morning. I don't get up in the night to load the stove.

Does anyone have ideas to help me figure out which stove to go with in this situation?

Also it needs to have an OAK since the house is so tight. I might just add proximity air that I can control but I would like the option.

Thanks in advance

 

[begreen]

Welcome. Congratulations on doing an exceptional job of tightening up the house. The 13NC can do an overnight burn if everything is just right, but of course with weather and winter variables it often is not. It might be time to spend more for a stove that gives you increased flexibility for long low btu burns, yet has the reserves for when temps dive into single digits. Also, the 13NC needs more insulation in the hearth where many other stoves don't. If this means a hearth rebuild then alternatives might be more attractive.

 

[Doc C]

Begreen
Thanks for the reply. I have about 3" of flagstone on top of a bed of mortar underneath. Behind is so many layers of brick it's safe in that direction.

I've done a bunch of research on most of the known stove brands and while I do not have a preference on brand as I think they all have there strong points the general problem I'm having is either the stove puts out so much heat I'm back at the point I'm at now or it's so small that I can't get an overnight burn reliably.

I would like to be able to burn a stove the way it's designed, turn it down at night when I go to bed, get up and start burning again all without cooking is out of the house. Maybe a pipe dream?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Does anyone have ideas to help me figure out which stove to go with in this situation?

Your house/situation sounds like a perfect candidate for a catalytic stove!

 

[Doc C]

I was thinking about that. Never have run one but would definitely be open to it. Maybe you can enlighten me on why a catalytic stove would be good for what I am trying to accomplish. I understand how they work but also have never experienced how they work if that makes any sense.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I was thinking catalytic when I suggested considering a different stove. A cat stove's strength is its ability to burn low and slow, while keeping emissions down. A low burn at 10-15K btus over 16+ hrs is definitely possible. Blaze King and Woodstock makes stoves that can burn in this range.

 

[Doc C]

Do catalytic type stoves draft any better or worse then stoves with the tubes? My stove pipe goes up 3' into a 90 then horizontal for about 18" and enters a masonry chimney with a thimble. The masonry chimney is 2 story and I think it's 5"x9" dimensions inside the clay liner.

 

[Skidooer]

From what my dealer told me, Cat stoves run a cooler flue temp so they do not draft as much. He said my setup is ideal as my stove is in the basement and runs straight up and out the roof thru double wall pipe and class A chimney. It is mostly inside, so it stays warm and helps keep the draft. All though on warm days I can have a hard time getting it to draw.
He did say he would not install a cat stove on a house with a chimney pipe on the exterior of the house and/or with 90deg bends. He said it wouldn't keep a sufficient draft because the chimney would not stay warm enough. This guy has burned a Blaze King in his farm house for years and has sold/ installed many, so I tend to believe him.
Just what I was told, hope it helps.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Do catalytic type stoves draft any better or worse then stoves with the tubes? My stove pipe goes up 3' into a 90 then horizontal for about 18" and enters a masonry chimney with a thimble. The masonry chimney is 2 story and I think it's 5"x9" dimensions inside the clay liner.

If that masonry chimney is inside the thermal envelope of the house and has a non-leaky cleanout, I bet it has a pretty good draft. If it's on an exterior wall, probably not strong enough for a very efficient woodstove.

 

[Ashful]

Your house/situation sounds like a perfect candidate for a catalytic stove!

Ditto. Ditch that non-cat, and get a proper slow-burning cat stove. Your wood usage will drop dramatically, as you safely eek heat out of at one quarter the rate of that 30NC, without clogging your chimney.

No need to settle for a small stove with short burn times, if you go catalytic. Just turn it down, as you please.

Do catalytic type stoves draft any better or worse then stoves with the tubes? My stove pipe goes up 3' into a 90 then horizontal for about 18" and enters a masonry chimney with a thimble. The masonry chimney is 2 story and I think it's 5"x9" dimensions inside the clay liner.

A cat stove has a bypass, so your troubles with getting it to draft on a cold chimney will be eliminated. They draft much easier on start-up, which is where folks seem to struggle most with low draft in tube stoves.

However, being more efficient than tube stoves, and having a wider available range of burn rates, it is also possible to turn them down to the point where you're not putting enough heat into your chimney to keep draft moving as well as you'd like. In this scenario, you could turn the stove down far enough where it stalls (BK) or back-puffs (Woodstock). No harm, though... as you get to know your stove, you'll learn how far you can turn it down for given weather conditions, and easily avoid the problem.

I have run two different catalytic stoves on a 15 foot chimney, where I could not turn them down nearly as far as the three different stoves I've run on my 29 foot chimney. No biggie...

 

[Doc C]

The englander I have now back puffs since I have to run it so low all the time. So it sounds like a cat stove is the better way to go.

Do you guys consider a hybrid stove a cat stove? I did find one stove that looks appealing but it's labeled as a hybrid. Also the firebox is over 3CF I think so it might be too big again unless i can really turn the sucker down.

 

[Doc C]

Also the masonry chimney is inside the house and the clean out was VERY leaky until this summer when I put new weather stripping on it. I did not realize a leaky clean out could cause draft issues but it makes perfect sense now that someone mentioned it.

 

[Ashful]

I put an insulated liner up thru both of my masonry chimneys, which is highly-recommended if you go with a cat stove. You'll find your stovepipe runs surprisingly cool (a result of that high catalytic efficiency), by comparison to your Englander.

Hybrid technology is pretty cool, but might not be any advantage to you, and some of the hybrids have been pretty poor (eg. Vermont Castings). The advantage of the hybrid (in theory) is that they can achieve low burn rate efficiency of a cat stove, with HHV similar to a non-cat... but the reviews I see here indicate they're not really hitting the same low burn rate numbers as cat stoves. The Woodstock hybrids (eg. Progress) are the only hybrids for which I see mostly positive reviews, and their burntimes are much lower than any similar size BK catalytic.

The one complaint about BK's is that they might not hit some of the same high numbers as an equivalent-sized non-cat, like your 30NC. However, since you're really looking to back off from that, I'd say BK is squarely in your wheelhouse. Some of the Woodstocks might work for you, as well. The Woodstocks can burn much lower and slower than your 30NC, but no where near as low and slow as any BK.

I flat out would not consider any Vermont Castings or Jotul catalytic stoves. Period. Lopi has a Hybrid, which looked real promising, but has also received a lot of negative comments from their owners.

 

[Ashful]

Oh, one last thing you should know. A catalytic stove can burn with the same pretty flame show as any non-cat stove. However, when you turn them way down to ultra-low burn rates, the flames go out. What you will have under that condition is a black box of wood, slowly producing wood gas, and a glowing catalytic combustor eating that wood gas, keeping your chimney clean, and expelling heat. If you turn the stove back up a hair, voila... you'll have flames again.

If you want pretty flames all day every day, then your only option is to run a smaller stove at a higher burn rate, and load it frequently. Small box + high burn rate = short burn time. But, those of us with cat stoves are happy to have them turned down to "black box" mode most of the day, maybe turning it up a bit for flame show when we're sitting in front of it. It's the price you pay for 40 hour burn times... and no, that number is not exaggerated.

 

[Doc C]

I was trying not to name brands since a lot of them seem to be good but since there appears to be problems with some of the hybrid stoves I guess I will have too.

The stove I was thinking is the ideal steel stove. I could care less about the flame I just need the adjustability to not have to sleep outside in the snow during the winter to keep my teeth from sweating.

 

[begreen]

The englander I have now back puffs since I have to run it so low all the time. So it sounds like a cat stove is the better way to go.

Do you guys consider a hybrid stove a cat stove? I did find one stove that looks appealing but it's labeled as a hybrid. Also the firebox is over 3CF I think so it might be too big again unless i can really turn the sucker down.

The leaky cleanout could have been the issue with back puffing combined with the larger area flue. The 30NC's 6" outlet is ~28 sq in. vs the 45 sq in. chimney flue. A leaky cleanout introduces a lot of cool air into the chimney, cooling the flue gases and diluting the draft.

I am on the fence on whether the cat stove will vent well here. They like decent draft too. Maybe the cleanout sealing has fixed this issue? Have you burned since sealing up the cleanout door? In non-cat, the 2 cu ft Lopi Endeavor has a bypass for easy starting and it will provide an overnight burn. Pacific Energy and Enviro stoves have a short and direct secondary intake path that allows them to work on lower draft chimneys. Both make stoves in the range you want if you decide to go non-cat. The PE Super 27 definitely does a good overnight burn.

In Cat stoves, the non-cat Woodstock Palladian and Fireview can burn low and slow and have a long track record of reliability. In BK the Sirocco line can get the job done. For a hybrid, the Ideal Steel will not burn as low as the Absolute Steel. (13K btus vs 10K btus) The latter may be a better fit.

 

[Doc C]

And also I do plan on having the chimney relined with an insulated liner. The masonry chimney has a couple tiny hairline cracks. Not enough to make me nervous with the 3 layers of brick and also the clay liner but enough that it would probably be smart to deal with it before it gets worse.

 

[begreen]

And also I do plan on having the chimney relined with an insulated liner. The masonry chimney has a couple tiny hairline cracks. Not enough to make me nervous with the 3 layers of brick and also the clay liner but enough that it would probably be smart to deal with it before it gets worse.

Good to hear that. This would make a large difference in draft and safety as the liner will be sized to the stove. Then a cat stove should be fine. How tall is the chimney?

 

[Doc C]

I would say from the base of the chimney to the top is about 26'-28'. It's a full 2 story house is 8/12 roof pitch and an attic you can stand up in and the chimney comes out at the ridge and sticks up a 3' or so. The stove inserts into the chimney at about 5' high if that makes a difference.

 

[begreen]

That's plenty height. With an insulated liner it should draft well unless the stove is negative pressure zone. This can be caused by air exiting at the top of the house, like via an attic door or an open 2nd story window.
http://woodheat.org/all-about-chimneys.html

 

[Doc C]

That's strange you mention that. I get a faint creosote smell in the summer near the stove and I've wondered if it is in a negative zone. I have sealed all penetrations except the attic hatch which I think I will caulk it before winter and just cut the caulk in the future if I need to get in there. It has a tightly fitting lid but I know some air is getting through there. The only possible air leak up high is the exhaust fan for the second floor bath. I am not sure how to check to see if the flap is holding closed when the fan is off but that's a topic for another day.

So if I am understanding correctly a hybrid stove that is designed correctly would probably work fine for this situation and also a cat stove might be even better?

I like the idea of the automatic dampener on certain brand of cat stoves but the price is borderline on being too much. BUT I also do not want to end up with a stove I will have to replace because I cheaped out and got something that will not work for our situation.

I think my first choice would be one of the Ideal Steel hybrid stoves and then after that it would be BK of some sort.

That is if I'm understanding correctly what you guys are explaining to me about the type of stove that you think would work best.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I would say from the base of the chimney to the top is about 26'-28'. It's a full 2 story house is 8/12 roof pitch and an attic you can stand up in and the chimney comes out at the ridge and sticks up a 3' or so. The stove inserts into the chimney at about 5' high if that makes a difference.

What is the temperature in the attic during those times when the main floor is too hot for comfort? If the insulation is in the attic ceiling, I'm thinking your current chimney will offer good draft. Make sure the thimble (where the stove pipe enters the chimney) is well sealed. If the insulation is in the attic floor and the attic is cold, maybe not the best draft. It sounds like the chimney exits near the roof peak with only perhaps 3' above the roof? That would be good for draft.

How do you re-line a 5" x 9" clay tile lined chimney? Sounds very expensive.

The cracks in the clay liner happen due to thermal stresses and repeated hot firings followed by cool (and perhaps wet conditions). The rate of deterioration will slow to almost nothing with a catalytic stove burning more consistently 24/7.

 

[Doc C]

There is about 4' of insulation on the attic floor....yes 4'! Mostly blow in. Also there are gable, soffit, and ridge vents. My guess is the attic is pretty cold in the winter but I have never been in there in the winter.

Reclining cost about $2400 for my house. They break out the clay liner and then just feline like normal with insulated pipe.

 

[begreen]

I think my first choice would be one of the Ideal Steel hybrid stoves and then after that it would be BK of some sort.

Give Woodstock a call, their tech support is quite good. I think the Absolute steel is a better choice than the Ideal Steel for this installation due to the lower output, but see what they say. Or consider a bigger BK (Sirocco 30 or Princess) with the thermostatic damper.

 

[Doc C]

Keystone or Palladian is what they recommend for our situation. The only problem is the price is just about up there with the BK stoves and I think that if I'm spending that much money I want the automatic dampener feature. Now I need to really do some thinking.

They think that both of the steel stoves are going to be too much stove.

Any thoughts on this?