Air balance explanation Please...

[jadm]

Can't seem to find the balance is shutting down the air in my new insert.

Temp. taken with IR therm. on side panels of unit read 460*. Secondary flames are rolling around in the top of the fire box. Smoke from stack is clear. Glass on unit is clear. Bricks are dark. Air is shut down 75%.

I keep reading about people shutting their air all the way down or almost all the way down and burning hot and clean. I could do the same thing in my old insert (Napoleon 1101).

With this unit I can't seem to be able to get bricks and the stack to stay clear at the same time when I shut down past 50%. (Glass always stays pretty clean except a bit of build up in the lower corners which is what happened in my old insert to.

My understanding (which is minimal and changes daily ) is that if internal temps. are high enough all systems, glass, bricks and chimney smoke, should be 'clean'.

I should mention that this insert doesn't have a really good place to get an accurate read. If I were to place my magnetic therm. on top of the insert in the blower exhaust space The temp. would read about 100*-150* higher than what I get on the side strips.

You may be wondering -'Why does she want to shut down the air past 50%'? Well, I am hoping to burn less wood by slowing down the burn.

 

[jtp10181]

Going to need more info about your chimney, or link to a post about.

The amount of draft can greatly how you can use the air controls on a stove.

 

[myzamboni]

type of wood and how well seasoned also plays a part. I slide my air lever all the way left with hardwoods, but with pine I only can shut ~2/3 max. I'm sure wetter wood will also have an impact on how far you cant shut it down.

Keep experimenting, it is part of the journey.

 

[jadm]

Going to need more info about your chimney.

My chimney is 15' tall. Internal, full masonary chimney. (Hadn't thought of the height of chimney playing a part in this but, since you mentioned it, that makes sense as to why this insert behaves differently than my old insert. It used to be 13' tall but when Jotul was installed they added 2' to get to the recommended 15' height.)

Woods = mixed hard woods but I use pine to get first fire of the day started. Was delivered last June and stacked. Part covered with tarps due to being in the line of some of our sprinklers.

Testing wood with my moisture meter and the 'thunk' test. Anything questionable gets put back outside on next year's pile.

 

[jadm]

type of wood and how well seasoned also plays a part. I slide my air lever all the way left with hardwoods, but with pine I only can shut ~2/3 max. I'm sure wetter wood will also have an impact on how far you cant shut it down.

Keep experimenting, it is part of the journey.

At this point I am wondering how much wood I'll have to order for next year. The wood I am using is the same as I was using with my old insert. (See above post.)

It is so much nicer to be at the end of the journey rather than being in the thick of the woods. :coolsmirk:

 

[begreen]

The simple answer probably is that this stove will never burn like the Napoleon. It's rare that two stove burn exactly alike. Given the difference in design, I would expect it to burn differently. Unfortunately the C550 is a new model so we don't have a large data set to draw upon for comparison. We have to rely on you and others to experiment and try various wood layout configurations, damper settings, etc. to come up with what works best. I do notice that the C550 is not the cleanest insert on the block. Maybe it always will want more air. Stay tuned and keep supplying info.

As to next season's wood consumption, I would buy twice as much wood. You'll probably need only 25-50% more for the larger stove, but that will have you covered in case there's is a particularly cold winter next year. If not, you'll have less to buy the following year.

 

[jadm]

I do notice that the C550 is not the cleanest insert on the block. Maybe it always will want more air. Stay tuned and keep supplying info.

Please explain 'not the cleanest insert on the block'. Does that refer to creosote build up or amount of smoke not burned in the box - hence more pollutants into the air and more creosote??

Wood for next year is due on Friday. I did order twice as much as I have in the past and it is giving my husband fits. He's afraid that some day he will come home and find the backyard completely full of firewood. :ahhh: He did enjoy the cartoon someone posted titled 'Quit Complaining' - the interior of the couples house is wall to wall wood....

I will stay tuned but you will have to wait at least a full burning season for any conclusive info. from me about this unit. At this point the only thing I can say with certainty is that it is a very hard unit to get an accurate temp. on. An IR therm. is highly recommended. ;-)

 

[begreen]

The manual says that the C550 is rated at 7.1gms/hr emissions, which is not very clean by today's standards. But visiting Jotul's website and looking at the new brochure, it lists the C550 at 4 gms/hr. I am confused by Jotul's conflicting data. Which to believe, the marketing or the manufacturing literature?

 

[jadm]

The manual says that the C550 is rated at 7.1gms/hr emissions, which is not very clean by today's standards. But visiting Jotul's website and looking at the new brochure, it lists the C550 at 4 gms/hr. I am confused by Jotul's conflicting data. Which to believe, the marketing or the manufacturing literature?

It does seem like data changes from source to source. The real question is 'How does one get to the top of the pile and find information that is accurate?' Ahhh- but isn't that life's question too.... ;-)

I had brochures galore during my quest for an insert. The only one I recall with 4gms/hr. was a Quadrafire. All others came in around 7gms/hr. (I think....I looked at so many it is hard to remember...) My Napoleon was rated at 7gms/hr too..


I know that when I was at the dealers she was highly recommending the Quadrafire. (I did consider it but it was too big for our heart space and I didn't want to do remodel on top of an install. My husband is very tolerant of my wood burning ways and he is happier with the flush design of the C550.) Her reason for recommending, I think, was that they are the ones who came up with the clean burning inserts. I figured they probably had more of them in stock too and were trying to sell them before the end of the season. I recall it being a bit more pricey than the C550.)

Just for curiosities sake, which brands do you know of with low emissions? Do free standing stoves rate better than inserts?

 

[Corie]

FWIW I don't put a lot of faith in the EPA emissions numbers. The outcome of those tests are probably 60% determined by the person running the test. A stove can perform flawlessly one day and terribly the next all based on the person running the test. I don't want to say any more than that though.

 

[swestall]

Hey Corie!
Sometimes you are so subtle.
ONE point that was kind of said before is important. You have to treat each new stove as a completely different animal. Get to know it, tame it and find its sweet spots.
Making a transition from one to the other is usually a two part excercise. First, you have to try what you use to do and figure out it doesn't work, then you start to learn the new baby's ways.

 

[begreen]

Right on Corie, though I would guess that the emissions are 100% determined by the user if you include wood selection, starting method, etc..

 

[jadm]

You have to treat each new stove as a completely different animal. Get to know it, tame it and find its sweet spots.
Making a transition from one to the other is usually a two part excercise. First, you have to try what you use to do and figure out it doesn't work, then you start to learn the new baby's ways.

You hit the nail on the head here. With my first insert I just started burning and IT taught me what to do and not do over a period of several years. I assumed the same techniques applied to any insert/stove.

Well, as all of you seasoned multi stove burners know, it's not that simple.

What amazes me is that even knowing that this is an exercise I still get hooked trying to apply what I used to do. I have to chuckle because there have been days when I have tried to force it to behave the way I want it to! (Any of you have 2 year olds or teenagers?)

As with all things, when I finally let go this insert will then be able to teach me how to burn it. An open mind! What a novel concept .

I am learning a lot along the way. I never knew so much was involved in simply burning a piece of wood in a metal box!

I appreciate everyones' responses to all of my questions. :coolsmile:

 

[begreen]

If it's any consolation, just going up one size, with the same brand of stove, can be a relearning experience. Our F400 burns quite differently from the F3CB and cooler with the same wood. But the Castine has more mass and larger fire volume, so we are actually heating more with it for a longer time. Same with the C550 is suspect. That's why you are one of our pioneers in the field. Next year you'll be telling us how to run the beast.

For now, experiment with the stove. Try different wood setups. When you reload, try putting a couple shorter 2" diameter sleeper logs North/South and then load the stove up with larger splits laid East/West on top of the 'sleepers'. Try different wood types and different air settings and watch the temps respond. Let us know what you find out.