"Altered Pellet Stove"

[kinsmanstoves]

Here are two insights for you to consider:

1: Corrosion perforations in venting leads to CO escaping and CO doesn't care if you are awake or not.

2: Ever hear of negligence as it relates to "unintended" consequences (Take a lot of time and really think this one through.) ?

I suspect that you're under the impression that humans can't sense when they're not getting enough oxygen, but they actually can, that is if they are awake. As far as I've ever heard, the danger and deaths from CO come when people are asleep, -they die in their sleep (which almost happened to one of my sisters). CO alarms are meant to wake you up so you don't die in your sleep. If you're awake, you'll feel the effect and open the doors and windows. So it's a mistake to say, " CO doesn't care if you are awake or not".

As for negligence, it relates not to "unintended consequences" but to foreseeable or unforeseeable consequences. If unforeseeable consequences occur, then negligence can't be asserted, although there is a huge gray area in which judgements about discretion can be argued from opposite views.

I bet you could save Japan.

Eric

 

[webbie]

I had a customer that "modded" various heating appliances in their home, and they did not die, but started waking up at 11 in the morning instead of 7am.

I also know a woman whose whole family died from their furnace (oil).....

Another guy I know who did a lot of mods on his central furnace took his wife to the hospital almost dead...but not quite.

All in all, not worth the savings, IMHO.

 

[Don2222]

Hello

This should take the prize for the MOST altered Wood pellet Stove!! Pellet Stove Boiler Mod !!

http://nh.craigslist.org/hsh/2289356346.html

TURN YOUR PELLET/CORN OR COAL STOVE INTO A BOILER , AND DOUBLE THE BTU'S FROM TWO TYPES OF HEAT AT THE SAME TIME, NOW HEAT OTHER AREAS OF YOUR HOME FOR FREE USEING THE SAME AMOUNT OF PELLETS ,CORN OR COAL, CHECK OUT. http://www.CROSSLINKCONVERSIONS.COM WEB SITE AND READ THE FORUM .LETS CLEAN UP OUR AIR PASS THIS ALONG

See pics below

 

[webbie]

Ya know, it's amazing...all this harnessing of "wasted" heat!

My dad, who is not mechanical, came up with similar plans. This would involve putting a min-generator on your faucets, so that when you ran the water you could generate some electricity. Think about it. You could hook one up to an outside hose.....then pipe the water up to tank in your attic, and let it fall again (so your water bill is not high) and keep generating.

We could stop all reliance on fossil fuels that way.

 

[heat seeker]

Sounds like a "perpetual motion machine" to me. He's extracting heat from the fire, which leaves less heat to warm the heat exchanger. That means a net loss of heat into the room. There's no free lunch, it's not like they're using waste heat going out the vent. And that's another can of worms - whether removing heat from the exhaust is a good idea or not.
I'd also like to know how he keeps from boiling the water that's in the tubing inside the stove. Sure, keep it moving, but the heat has to go somewhere after the water in the system is fully heated.
I'd like more details.

 

[heat seeker]

Ya know, it's amazing...all this harnessing of "wasted" heat!

My dad, who is not mechanical, came up with similar plans. This would involve putting a min-generator on your faucets, so that when you ran the water you could generate some electricity. Think about it. You could hook one up to an outside hose.....then pipe the water up to tank in your attic, and let it fall again (so your water bill is not high) and keep generating.

We could stop all reliance on fossil fuels that way.

Actually, that idea is in use. The plant where I worked has automatic flushers on the toilets and urinals. They were battery operated, and needed new batteries once a year. They got new ones that have a little turbine and generator inside. When it flushes itself, it recharges itself, so batteries last 5-7 years or more.
They also monitor the time spent in front of them, and assuming longer time means greater flushing requirement, adjusts the amount of water used for the flush. If no one uses a given fixture for 24 hours, it flushes itself to keep the water from getting stagnant.
Heck, for $450 each, they should clean the fixtures, too!

Technology in search of an application...

 

[webbie]

Cool, so it works.....
But my dad was talking about more than trickle charging batteries - the point there was the old perpetual motion machine thing...that is, I told him that it take more energy to get the water pumped to pressure through the faucet than you would generate! Diminishing returns, I guess......

As to his coil, it is not wasted heat - as you know, part of that heat would be taken from the stoves heat exchangers and the rest from the flue gas temp.
He would need to have constant circulation to prevent boiling.....and with that puny coil, we would not have to worry much about overheating a loop...BUT, if the pump failed or something like that, it would probably boil within a few minutes or less.

Not to say that stove and fireplace boiler systems are not a good idea...they have been used for a century or more in Europe. But they are designed into the stoves and properly rated, etc....

 

[webbie]

. The plant where I worked has automatic flushers on the toilets and urinals. They were battery operated, and needed new batteries once a year. They got new ones that have a little turbine and generator inside. When it flushes itself, it recharges itself, so batteries last 5-7 years or more..

Well, the next big idea then is a small turbine that you aim your pee right into........that way you generate something before it goes down the drain, and that is wasted energy!

Big ideas here.......but small current. This would probably only be useful for guys 40 and under and in beer joints.

 

[heat seeker]

True, the energy needed to raise the water would exceed what you got of the little generators in your dad's idea - but - the energy was coming from somewhere else; ideally the water was gravity fed from a lake uphill, and the sun's energy was used to raise the water vapor up so it could condense and make rain to fall into the lake - and I'm getting a headache!

I stopped drinking beer - I got tired of being the middleman - now I just pour it down the drain ——NOT!

 

[checkthisout]

Here are two insights for you to consider:

1: Corrosion perforations in venting leads to CO escaping and CO doesn't care if you are awake or not.

2: Ever hear of negligence as it relates to "unintended" consequences (Take a lot of time and really think this one through.) ?

I suspect that you're under the impression that humans can't sense when they're not getting enough oxygen, but they actually can, that is if they are awake. As far as I've ever heard, the danger and deaths from CO come when people are asleep, -they die in their sleep (which almost happened to one of my sisters). CO alarms are meant to wake you up so you don't die in your sleep. If you're awake, you'll feel the effect and open the doors and windows. So it's a mistake to say, " CO doesn't care if you are awake or not".

As for negligence, it relates not to "unintended consequences" but to foreseeable or unforeseeable consequences. If unforeseeable consequences occur, then negligence can't be asserted, although there is a huge gray area in which judgements about discretion can be argued from opposite views.

What are the first symptoms CO poisoning?

 

[begreen]

shortness of breath
mild nausea
headaches

http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/symptoms.html

 

[arnash]

shortness of breath
mild nausea
headaches

http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/symptoms.html

As I had said without factual refutation, humans experience noticeable symptoms due to CO, headache Noticeable! Nausea Noticeable!, shortness of breath, etc. Not to mention light-headedness. All Noticeable, unless you're asleep.

"2a. Just because you don’t foresee something doesn’t absolve you of negligence if your actions lead to consequences that are detrimental to others or yourself."

Actually, in a court of law, I think it does because to be negligent you have to have some knowledge or awareness of the dangers of your actions or lack of action and ignore them deliberately. Think of the space shuttle Challenger. The managers were warned to not attempt a launch in such cold temperatures but they did it anyway. they were guilty of stupidity perhaps, over-confidence and yielding to dead-line pressure, but they weren't held to be negligent because they didn't believe the warnings, they kind of brushed then aside. If the engineers that warned them had had the authority to "green-light" the launch, and did so, they would have been negligent because they knew better. If one is completely unaware of any danger, how can they be guilty of negligence? That doesn't necessarily absolve them of financial liability . Companies and individuals are always getting sues (but not criminally charge) when someone gets hurt in connection to them. Remember that lady that sued McDonald's over the scalding coffee that burned the hell out of her because it was so hot when it spilled in her lap? She won a huge judgement because she produced witnesses that testified that McDonald's had been sued more than once in the past for the same thing and had not done anything to prevent it from happening again. McDonald's was negligent because they knew the of danger.

The idea of using water pressure to generate electricity is a darn good one. Most cities, that have water brought in via aqueducts (which have to cross various high hills,) have to pump the water up to the top of the hill (consuming power) but instead of using a hill-high length of baffles on the way down they could use hydo-electric turbines on the way down to re-capture the consumed power. It would add up since the pumping runs day & night all year long. An even better idea occurs to me but I'm not sharing it until I get a patent!

 

[DexterDay]

shortness of breath
mild nausea
headaches

http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/symptoms.html

As I had said without factual refutation, humans experience noticeable symptoms due to CO, headache Noticeable! Nausea Noticeable!, shortness of breath, etc. Not to mention light-headedness. All Noticeable, unless you're asleep.

quote]

Yes..... You would notice. Unless you were asleep, as you stated. That's when the "Danger" occurs. I have a 9yr old son and a Pregnant wife that's due in May (With my first daughter Mikayla). I have 3 CO detectors throughout the house to ensure there safety. One in the room with the pellet stove, one in the hallway by the bedrooms, and one in the kitchen, right next to the Cooking stove (LP). BUT. Some people are negligent. And just think they are Sick, have a Headache, or have Shortness of breath. These are the reasons why whats engineered. is best left the way it was. I don't want to risk my life, or my families, for a few extra BTU's.

 

[arnash]

BUT. Some people are negligent. And just think they are Sick, have a Headache, or have Shortness of breath. These are the reasons why whats engineered. is best left the way it was. I don't want to risk my life, or my families, for a few extra BTU's.

And if they didn't recognize the symptoms, they might go lay down and fall to sleep, their last sleep. The facts are only useful if you know them and many people don't, so "better safe than sorry" if there's any chance of calamity. As for my situation...no wife, no kids, no pets, so my perspective isn't what it would be if I were in your situation. I wouldn't want to do anything that might put them at risk.

 

[TLHinCanada]

I don't know what to say. I guess some people would walk accross the road into the path of a semi, yelling pedestrians have the right of way. I remember years ago haveing to put on a scot air pack to get people because when CO alarms went off they thought they knew better and could keep working. There used to be a phrase about darwinism solving such problems.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

There are variable presentations of carbon monoxide poisoning, ranging from asymptomatic or slight headache, dizziness, nausea, syncope, visual disturbance, confusion, seizure and coma.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2771996/

So never assume you'll experience any recognizable symptoms from CO poisoning and be able to act in any manner.

CO poisoning has also been known to result in cardiac arrest and death long before what are considered to be normal symptoms would occur.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

i never read of CO poisoning from a pellet stove, i have read much about a pellet stove leaking in the house & the stink

Unfortunately any device that burns a carbon based fuel will generate CO, and as always it is a matter of concentration and an individual's ability to tolerate what they are exposed to.

Normally what folks notice is what happens when the stove is not burning correctly or is in the start up stage and there is an installation, maintenance, or improper operation issue.

ETA: Here is a link on wood pellet combustion products (they do not break down the many compounds in the component called TOC, there are however extremely detailed analysis of combustion products in various technical reports and studies).

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...9Mihuc&sig=AHIEtbRWui8YmMnGrVnmaQ30RX-Zwv1wIw

A little time with a search engine can locate tons of information.

 

[pen]

While the idea of wanting to improve anything is as American an aspiration as any, I am glad to see the support which has been shown erring on the side of caution for this situation.

On that note, if the conversation is to continue in any different direction a new thread should be created w/ it's own descriptive topic. This one has been whooped.

pen