Another alcove build advice and input

[Fitzmobetta]

Good Afternoon all,

I am new hear as a member but have been using the site for a month or two for information. I am currently in the process of building our first home from the ground up in Lewisburg TN, My family and I recently freed ourselves from California. In our new home we will be installing a new wood burning stove. This is my first wood burning stove in a home. We have already purchased a MF Nova 2. My wife loved the large glass window and stove design. I wish I would have done more research before purchasing. Below is all my design information, I appreciate any help input and so on. I have looked at manufactures specs and also reached out to them direct but information from them is still very limited. I also reached out to a few local fire place professionals but I have found if I did not purchase the stove from them they will not work with me. The only company that would come out and possibly work with me turned me down once they found out I was installing in an alcove. That being said I will be doing install and build myself. I understand alcove is not the best design for functional heating of the house as this will just be supplemental heat.

My alcove is currently framed in wood and is oversized. I plan on framing that final alcove in steel stud and finishing the inside with fire brick or stone. My wood clearances are 28" to the left of the stove and 28" to the right of the stove. 13" to the rear of the stove. 63" from top of stove to wood ceiling. My alcove is 42" deep. I plan on framing with steel stud inside this wood alcove keeping a 1" gap between steel stud framing and wood. The steel stud framing will reduce the clearances to the following. 16" to the left, 16" to the right, 9.5" to the rear and 26" to the top. The Front of the stove will be even with the front of framing so entire stove will be inside alcove. I plan to attach durarock on the inside of the steel studs and then insulate the steel studs with rock wool. From stove to steel stud ceiling I plan on using about 24" of stove pipe then with a round ceiling support then transitioning to 6" Duravent duratech all fuel stainless inner galvalume outer chimney pipe. I will have about 24' feet total of chimney and stove pipe from top of stove to exit of roof. I will have 3 fire stops in the run and the chimney pipe is in a wood framed 24"x24" chase so I will have plenty of clearance from outside of chimney pipe to wood combustibles. In the manual from MF they do not have any information about alcoves. when I reached out to MF asking them they will only give me measurements to combustibles.

Also this stove is terrible for smoke roll out and I was thinking of some kind of exhaust fan installed in alcove ceiling to turn on when loading this stove? Also to help some heat escape the alcove I wanted to do some venting in the ceiling of the alcove to the sides of the alcove to allow some of the heat to radiate out more. I stumbled across someone doing the venting on here but can no longer find that thread. Looking for any and all productive input.

Here is a drawing for reference

 

[begreen]

Unfortunately, this stove has no alcove documentation which may mean it has never been tested for or is not intended for alcove installation. You'll want written documentation on this before proceeding. It may be better to not enclose the face of the alcove this way and instead leave it open with the current generous clearances. This stove needs a lot of room around it.

 

[Fitzmobetta]

begreen,

Thank you for the response and is good advice. I have not specifically requested from the manufacture if it has been tested and or is acceptable for this stove to be installed in an alcove. I will definitely be doing that. The reason for the tighter steel stud alcove is this will be going in our living room and did not want as large as an alcove as the wood requirements so to tighten up the alcove steel stud, rock board and so on was my best option I could do myself. Also I know alcove's get hot and grape heat so was overkilling to keep all wood around it as cool and safe as possible.

 

[webby3650]

The exhaust fan will ensure smoke roll out.. why do you say it’s terrible about spilling smoke? Have you used the stove already?

 

[begreen]

The insurance company, bank, and inspector may have some thoughts on this too. It's best as a freestanding stove.

 

[Fitzmobetta]

The exhaust fan will ensure smoke roll out.. why do you say it’s terrible about spilling smoke? Have you used the stove already?

Webby3650 we currently live inside an insulated shop building while building our house and I installed the stove inside our shop as our current heat source.

 

[cahaak]

I have a drolet myriad installed in an alcove, it replaced a manufactured fireplace that was removed, including the flue. I think you'll be much better off maintaining the existing opening size, especially if it meets your clearance to combustible requirements. You'll get better heat from the stove also. If you durock and tile or stone it, it will be fine. Ideally you should have a blower on the stove, or install computer fans in the alcove back corners to move more heated air from the alcove.

Reducing the alcove size doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Fitzmobetta]

Cahaak the size of the alcove was always to be the tighter steel struts framed one 16” on both sides and 26” above. The reason for the larger alcove framed in wood is just what I had the construction framers rough it in at to have as much clearance from the stove to combustibles as possible. For the design and esthetics of the living room the wood one is not what we want. The stove does and will have a blower which for an alcove is a must.

 

[U235]

Welcome to the “bought the wrong stove for an alcove” club. It sucks. I was going to recommend that you don’t burn in it as you’ll have more options with a never-fired stove.
One thing I’ll add, is I don’t think clearances to combustibles changes no matter how close you put non-combustible material. Also - as long as you maintain 1” (minimum) gap and ensure that the space is ventilated, it should reduce clearances. However I don’t know if the manual has to specifically say that 211 clearance reduction is available for your stove - I only see a rear heat shield option.
One question I’ve wondered is what distance is required from the “far” side to where it is no longer an alcove? Everyone’s stove is presumably in a room surrounded by 4 walls. Sure if both walls are 6 inches away, it’s a (very tight) alcove. What if one wall is 1 foot away? 5 feet? 10 feet? 100 feet? At some point it’s no longer an alcove. I’ve never found this definition but if you can, you might unlock some flexibility with the large space you have available.

 

[begreen]

The minimum clearance with proper wall shielding per NFPA is 12".
By definition an alcove is a small recessed section of a room. Stove companies test to the minimum alcove dimensions needed, they have no need for figuring out the maximum. The same goes for any clearance requirement.

 

[U235]

The minimum clearance with proper wall shielding per NFPA is 12".
By definition an alcove is a small recessed section of a room. Stove companies test to the minimum alcove dimensions needed, they have no need for figuring out the maximum. The same goes for any clearance requirement.

I’m just saying that every room is a small recessed portion of a house. I’ve never found an alcove defined but it does seem like something that should be in a code/rule/law/definition somewhere.

 

[begreen]

Again, an alcove is a small recessed portion of a room, not of a house.

 

[bholler]

I’m just saying that every room is a small recessed portion of a house. I’ve never found an alcove defined but it does seem like something that should be in a code/rule/law/definition somewhere.

Look up the definition of an alcove. When a word has a clear known definition it doesn't need to be defined in code

 

[U235]

I’m not trying to have an etymology debate. I know what the dictionary definition of an alcove is. I now know that any stove that doesn’t list acceptable clearances for an alcove is a stove that is not approved for an alcove. I hope the next person can find this information and not make the same mistake I did.

With all of these government incentives, there are going to be a lot of people new to wood burning. Some of them may have ZC builder boxes on the side of their home (like every house in every subdivision near me). Maybe they want to do this efficiently and install a freestanding stove. They may not get help from the licensed distributors and installers. They may not get help from the manufacturer. Who is going to help these people understand the codes so they can do this safely? I hope it’s this community. I’m trying to give some hope to the OP. I’ve been where he is.

I’m going to start with a 20 foot wide room. On the wall is a “small recessed section of a room”. The user has 12” clearance to combustibles on the right side and uses an NFPA 211 method acceptable for reducing clearances on all 3 walls. Certainly, the left side of this small recess can’t be closer than 12”, what about 4 feet away? What about 10 feet away? What about 18 feet away? At some point it seems the small recess is wide enough that it is no longer an alcove. Maybe not. Even if the recess is 19.9 feet wide, it’s still a recess to the 20 foot wall - still an alcove.

Okay so what about the recess? Is a 1” recess an alcove? Does it have to cover the chimney connector? Does it have to cover the entire stove? What if the user has a 12 foot wide recess but it is 40 feet deep (the size of a single wide trailer)? Is that an alcove or a room?

I think an alcove very much deserves a definition. When does it become a room? When is the far wall far enough away? The OP wants to join the wood burning community. He’s going to put a stove in the hole he has - I hope we can help him do it safely/compliantly/etc.

 

[begreen]

The OP has clearly defined the dimensions of the alcove space that he is working with. He wants to shrink it down to look a bit like a fireplace. To do this he must use a compliant stove or get written approval from the mfg. for the planned alcove.

 

[bholler]

I’m not trying to have an etymology debate. I know what the dictionary definition of an alcove is. I now know that any stove that doesn’t list acceptable clearances for an alcove is a stove that is not approved for an alcove. I hope the next person can find this information and not make the same mistake I did.

With all of these government incentives, there are going to be a lot of people new to wood burning. Some of them may have ZC builder boxes on the side of their home (like every house in every subdivision near me). Maybe they want to do this efficiently and install a freestanding stove. They may not get help from the licensed distributors and installers. They may not get help from the manufacturer. Who is going to help these people understand the codes so they can do this safely? I hope it’s this community. I’m trying to give some hope to the OP. I’ve been where he is.

I’m going to start with a 20 foot wide room. On the wall is a “small recessed section of a room”. The user has 12” clearance to combustibles on the right side and uses an NFPA 211 method acceptable for reducing clearances on all 3 walls. Certainly, the left side of this small recess can’t be closer than 12”, what about 4 feet away? What about 10 feet away? What about 18 feet away? At some point it seems the small recess is wide enough that it is no longer an alcove. Maybe not. Even if the recess is 19.9 feet wide, it’s still a recess to the 20 foot wall - still an alcove.

Okay so what about the recess? Is a 1” recess an alcove? Does it have to cover the chimney connector? Does it have to cover the entire stove? What if the user has a 12 foot wide recess but it is 40 feet deep (the size of a single wide trailer)? Is that an alcove or a room?

I think an alcove very much deserves a definition. When does it become a room? When is the far wall far enough away? The OP wants to join the wood burning community. He’s going to put a stove in the hole he has - I hope we can help him do it safely/compliantly/etc.

An alcove does have a definition. Code actually many times refers to Websters dictionary for definitions

 

[U235]

First - I’ll apologize if I was a bit out of line. My rage is at my seller, installer, inspector, and insurance agents all who previously said I was good to go, and VC who removed the comment about alcove installation from their manual and won’t return my messages. You guys have 30k and 100k plus comments and have probably helped more people than I ever will by probably a factor of a million.

OP has 83” between combustibles. If he pushed one side of his stove to the referenced 12” that would leave 44” on the far side, NFPA protected. There are possibly air circulation concerns for an alcove install (I’d love to read about if you had references to share) but 44”/.34 = 129”. Would anyone even bat an eye at a side install with 10 feet 9 inches to combustibles on the far side?

It may be that there isn’t a quantitative definition of an alcove as it relates to acceptable distance to combustibles and that’s a shame.

If the situation is truly hopeless, I guess it’s hopeless.

 

[bholler]

First - I’ll apologize if I was a bit out of line. My rage is at my seller, installer, inspector, and insurance agents all who previously said I was good to go, and VC who removed the comment about alcove installation from their manual and won’t return my messages. You guys have 30k and 100k plus comments and have probably helped more people than I ever will by probably a factor of a million.

OP has 83” between combustibles. If he pushed one side of his stove to the referenced 12” that would leave 44” on the far side, NFPA protected. There are possibly air circulation concerns for an alcove install (I’d love to read about if you had references to share) but 44”/.34 = 129”. Would anyone even bat an eye at a side install with 10 feet 9 inches to combustibles on the far side?

It may be that there isn’t a quantitative definition of an alcove as it relates to acceptable distance to combustibles and that’s a shame.

If the situation is truly hopeless, I guess it’s hopeless.

Oh nothing to apologize for at all. And I totally get your frustration

 

[Fitzmobetta]

Hi everyone below is what I received from MF fire after a few phone calls and emails along with pictures and drawings.

“Hi Armand,

Very sorry for the delay! Based on our understanding on your installation as described to us, we do not see any issues with the distance to combustibles on the sides, rear, and above the stove. Please note that MF Fire is relying solely on your description of the installation plans and cannot be there to inspect or sign off on any wood stove installation. We are providing guidance based on our best understanding.

Sides: 28" to combustibles. No issues here as this is greater than the required clearance to combustibles for Nova 2.

Rear: 12.5" to combustible materials. The requirement for clearance to combustibles for Nova 2 when installed with double wall pipe is 14". However, your use of a ventilated airspace, firebrick, cement board and rockwool insulation can reduce this to 12" per NFPA 211 (more on this below). Therefore, based on your description, the clearances off the rear of the stove to combustible materials falls in line with the product requirements if double wall pipe is used.

Top: The stove will be recessed 8" within the structure and will be 26" away from the vertical drywall face of the outward facing wall. Directly above the stove, the closest combustible is 63" away. Nova 2 requires a 36" clearance off the top of the stove, however, this clearance to combustible requirement can be reduced per NFPA 211 Table 13.6.2.1 (more below). Therefore, based on your description of using a ventilated airspace, firebrick, cement board and rockwool insulation, the 26" distance from the top of the recessed stove to the underside of the vertically oriented drywall is understood to be acceptable.”

 

[bholler]

Hi everyone below is what I received from MF fire after a few phone calls and emails along with pictures and drawings.

“Hi Armand,

Very sorry for the delay! Based on our understanding on your installation as described to us, we do not see any issues with the distance to combustibles on the sides, rear, and above the stove. Please note that MF Fire is relying solely on your description of the installation plans and cannot be there to inspect or sign off on any wood stove installation. We are providing guidance based on our best understanding.

Sides: 28" to combustibles. No issues here as this is greater than the required clearance to combustibles for Nova 2.

Rear: 12.5" to combustible materials. The requirement for clearance to combustibles for Nova 2 when installed with double wall pipe is 14". However, your use of a ventilated airspace, firebrick, cement board and rockwool insulation can reduce this to 12" per NFPA 211 (more on this below). Therefore, based on your description, the clearances off the rear of the stove to combustible materials falls in line with the product requirements if double wall pipe is used.

Top: The stove will be recessed 8" within the structure and will be 26" away from the vertical drywall face of the outward facing wall. Directly above the stove, the closest combustible is 63" away. Nova 2 requires a 36" clearance off the top of the stove, however, this clearance to combustible requirement can be reduced per NFPA 211 Table 13.6.2.1 (more below). Therefore, based on your description of using a ventilated airspace, firebrick, cement board and rockwool insulation, the 26" distance from the top of the recessed stove to the underside of the vertically oriented drywall is understood to be acceptable.”

Great

 

[begreen]

FYI I just came across relevant code that applies here in Chapter 13 of the NFPA 211 code for wood stoves in alcoves.

13.2.2​

Solid fuel—burning appliances shall not be installed in alcoves or enclosed spaces less than 512 ft3 (14.5 m3) unless specifically listed for such use.

 

[U235]

I guess that’s the answer I was looking for. Any alcove larger than 8’x8’x8’ has officially become a room.
Thanks for dealing with my misdirected frustration. Thrilled for the OP and the happy ending to his story.