Anyone else remove/modify stove with reburn tubes?

[begreen]

yardatwork, although you think the wood is dry, you need to be really sure. Split a few splits in half and check the fresh surface of the wood for moisture. If you don't have moisture meter, put it up against your cheek and see if it feels cool and damp. The chimney is too short. With the resistance of 2 90 deg turns it is effectively about half the 12ft height or 6 ft.. As a test, get a 4' length of inexpensive 6" galvanized duct pipe (at Lowes or HD),and use that as your test extension. Try a burn with known dry wood, not too large splits (say 3-6") in the stove and see if you note a real difference.

 

[oldspark]

My setup has 2 90's and it about 18 ft and so far has worked well even in the warmer weather, that is after hearth.com members told me it was ok to start a fire with the door open.

 

[oldspark]

I can relate to yardatwork because I had a pre EPA stove that worked flawlessly for 30 years and was worried about how well the new one would draft, it just seems like it the old stove worked so well the new one should burn better than what he is seeing. I assume he has the englander and I thought they worked better than some other EPA stoves when it comes to draft.

 

[BrotherBart]

I can relate to yardatwork because I had a pre EPA stove that worked flawlessly for 30 years and was worried about how well the new one would draft, it just seems like it the old stove worked so well the new one should burn better than what he is seeing. I assume he has the englander and I thought they worked better than some other EPA stoves when it comes to draft.

Pre-EPA stoves' draft just had to pull air through the hole in the front to get it to the wood and the fire. With an EPA stove the primary air has to be dragged kicking and screaming through the inlet in the back to the front of the stove. With some going up the sides to the airwash and some to the lower primary air distribution. All the while secondary air has to be pulled in through the secondary air manifold and out of the burn tubes up top.

A lot of distance and resistance that has to be overcome to get the air into the firebox that didn't exist in the old stoves.

 

[oldspark]

I can relate to yardatwork because I had a pre EPA stove that worked flawlessly for 30 years and was worried about how well the new one would draft, it just seems like it the old stove worked so well the new one should burn better than what he is seeing. I assume he has the englander and I thought they worked better than some other EPA stoves when it comes to draft.

Pre-EPA stoves' draft just had to pull air through the hole in the front to get it to the wood and the fire. With an EPA stove the primary air has to be dragged kicking and screaming through the inlet in the back to the front of the stove. With some going up the sides to the airwash and some to the lower primary air distribution. All the while secondary air has to be pulled in through the secondary air manifold and out of the burn tubes up top.

A lot of distance and resistance that has to be overcome to get the air into the firebox that didn't exist in the old stoves.

What I am saying is my chimney is marginal when you look at the specs and it sounds like my summit needs more draft that the englander to work well, I would think yards set up would work better than it does.

 

[Shari]

From your stove manual:

"To help ensure a good draft, the top of the chimney should be at least 3 feet above the point of penetration through the roof, and be at least 2 feet higher than any point of the roof within 10 feet."

Shari

 

[precaud]

From your stove manual:

"To help ensure a good draft, the top of the chimney should be at least 3 feet above the point of penetration through the roof, and be at least 2 feet higher than any point of the roof within 10 feet."

Shari

What? You're suggesting that someone actually read the manual?

 

[DanCorcoran]

Per the OP, "I read over the owner’s manual for taking the chimney up and off set from the peak of the house. It had a diagram and showed placing the outside chimney just like I have mine. It never mentioned having it up past the peak (no matter where you place it). It specified the 2’ or 2 1/2’ feet rule. What ever it was, I’m right at the coded height above roof line. I personally don’t see how adding another section or two of chimney will make the stove burn significantly better.

Apparently the OP read, but misunderstood, the manual. His chimney is not adequate, either for proper draft or for safety.

 

[DanCorcoran]

P.S.

I didn't pay for all these guys to install this humongous chimney just because I needed to get rid of some extra money...it was installed to meet minimum clearances.

Needless to say, the draft'll suck your hat off, if you're not careful...

 

[Slow1]

All that for an electric stove Dan? J/K

Not a stick of firewood to be seen and that plug just sort of stood out in the photo to me... made me laugh so I had to share the amusing thought.

That is one clean install - I assume it has worked out well for you.

 

[DanCorcoran]

Well, I only got 2-3 fires before the season ended. Needless to say, I'm chomping at the bit to get back up to the cabin and fire it up this season (next week looks good). I've split a lot this summer, but it won't be dry enough to use...still an issue I need to resolve. Also, now that the stove is in (and a staircase built to the loft), I'm ready to haul some furniture up to the cabin (which'll help hide the electric cord).

 

[yardatwork]

Everything everyone is saying about the draft does make sense now. The old EPA stove always burnt really hot making the stove pipe ho,t forcing everything up and out. Since the new EPA stoves REBURN what was once wasted heat I can see why the stove pipe isn't as hot now. With less stove pipe heat = less forced draft. My old non-EPA had draft holes right in front and no distance to travel. Like mentioned, my new stove pulls from the back of the stove and will need more draft to get the air going. I should have realized this when the glass on my wood burner door wasn't staying as clean as this new "air washed" technology explained.

There's a science to everything and that's why I came here. I was born and raise on non-EPA stoves so I needed some guidance on these fancy new stoves! Thanks everyone!

 

[vvvv]

ultimately the proof is in the pudding

 

[firefighterjake]

Everything everyone is saying about the draft does make sense now. The old EPA stove always burnt really hot making the stove pipe ho,t forcing everything up and out. Since the new EPA stoves REBURN what was once wasted heat I can see why the stove pipe isn't as hot now. With less stove pipe heat = less forced draft. My old non-EPA had draft holes right in front and no distance to travel. Like mentioned, my new stove pulls from the back of the stove and will need more draft to get the air going. I should have realized this when the glass on my wood burner door wasn't staying as clean as this new "air washed" technology explained.

There's a science to everything and that's why I came here. I was born and raise on non-EPA stoves so I needed some guidance on these fancy new stoves! Thanks everyone!

Sounds like we may have converted you over to not ripping the guts out of your stove . . . and giving it another try . . . stick around . . . a lot of folks here are wicked smart . . . we'll get you through this and one day you'll look back and wonder why you were even considering going back to the pre-EPA stoves.

 

[oldspark]

Make sure you tell us how it turned out.

 

[begreen]

Fix the baffle first.

 

[burleymike]

I know all about draft problems. The old grizzly insert we had did not work very well at all. One of the first things I did when we bought the place was to extend the chimney 4' to increase draft. The stove worked great until welds started breaking and the steel holder for the cat warped breaking the cat.

The other thing that helped me was a wind directional cap we have some big spruce trees to the west of us and the way the wind comes off the trees it would make a big downdraft and we would get smoke puffing in the house for a second. The wind directional cap fixed that as well as it prevented the wind from increasing the draft too much.

 

[oilstinks]

I have to see 450+ stove top and flue temps to get a good secondary burn. I have draft problems and sometimes i have to crack open the door(just loosen the handle and break the seal) to get the stove going good. Once everything gets good and hot no problems. I only get about 45min secondary burn usually. I pick out oak pallets at my job and that helps. I does take a while to learn these stoves. My non epa in my building will burn what ever and run away if im not careful but it burns about twice the wood too. One more stick of pipe helped me. It wasnt magical but it did help. Hopefully ill have an outside air intake kit to help with draft this year. Dont get discouraged you will learn the stove. I honestly believe you can take the same stove with the same amount of pipe in two different locations and you will have to relearn how to run the stove. Like i said i have better draft 50 yards accross my property. My draft sucks (as in bad) if out side temps are jut in the 40s. The colder the better.

 

[EL DRIFTO]

just plug the 2ndary air intake hole with al foil & it'll stop the airflow if u want. & post back if u get better results, eh? EPA stove aint burned with same procedure as non-EPA stove

My stove has a 3" inlet for the dampened front lower air hole & upper door air flush, but the 4 tubes get their air unmetered through a different manifold inlet...

Has anyone tried valving that down with some HVAC tin or something to make it adjustable, to like 50% ??

i tried to get a pic but it failed, it just seems if i burn less wood slower, the tubes let a bit too much air through, thx in advance & Merry Christmas

first post of the year

 

[EL DRIFTO]

Well it seems to be working so far ~30% of the original opening size. Seemed to help around 50%, but 30% has a single split burning with slow flames. I also have the front damper a bit tighter & it doesn't seem to be letting all of the heat out. The flue temps are also staying up...thx

 

[cottonwoodsteve]

I did some thinking and interesting experiments on EPA verses pre EPA stoves. My observations and experiments are based on having an old tiny potbelly stove, a friends box wood stove, my EPA wood stove and my totally usless EPA fireplace insert.
In normal wood stoves the fire radiates to the surrounding metal. Then the metal radiates to the ambient air.
Other heat goes up the stove pipe and radiates off of the pipe. The stove pipe heats quickly and starts radiating heat before the stove does.
In an EPA stove the whole inside is lined with firebrick. It is like lining the whole thing with hi temp styro-foam. No heat gets to the metal.
I have done some experiments by removing a brick on one side of my EPA stove. At a given fire size the metal on the outside was 250 degrees but had a 520 degree jump in the area where I removed one firebrick. The fire brick reflect the heat and prevent the metal sides from absorbing it.
This makes the fire hotter and keeps the smoke hotter so it can burn better. The hot fire and burning smoke reduce the emissions 50% ( my imaginary data). But now you have to burn a fire twice as big to get some heat out of your highly insulated fire area. With an old style stove you could see the charcole glowing almost white hot and burn down to nothing. Now with the new "improved" EPA stoves you will be lucky to see the coals almost bright red and there is a lot of chuncks left the next morning. What are the most efficient stoves? Pellet stoves. They put all of the air at the base of the fire. they have no secondary burn tubes. Basically EPA stoves make a low temperature fire and then if everything is perfect it lights off the smoke it created. You will see EPA stoves rated by efficiency of burn and lack of smoke . You will never see a rating of efficiency of BTU's per pound of wood compared to a non-EPA stove. If you put air at the base of the fire you can burn anything even slightly wet wood and chimney length didn't really mater that much. With an EPA stove the moisture has to be just right. The chimney has to be designed by NASA. The fire size has to be just right. One wood stick too little and the secondery smoke light off won't happen. When everything is perfect they burn very clean but don't give off much heat relative to the amount of wood.
If everything isn't perfect they smoke more than a a non-EPA stove.
With a fire place insert you don't even get heat off of the stove pipe since it has to be insulated and in the chimney.
That's my experience, experiments and opinions. Just like in the '70s when they reduced the car emissions by 20% per gallon but had to burn 20% more to make the the car move. Hopefully the next gererations of EPA stoves will get more heat along with the low emissions. Low emission wood burning is a good idea, but unfortumately the government got involved.

 

[precaud]

No offense, but the way you're conceiving of this is WAY too simplistic, using terms like "firebrick" as if all firebrick are the same, comparing a pot belly (designed to burn coal) to an EPA wood stove (ridiculous at best), and this:

In an EPA stove the whole inside is lined with firebrick. It is like lining the whole thing with hi temp styro-foam. No heat gets to the metal.

If you really think the bricks don't pass any heat to the metal, I challenge you to reach into your stove and remove a firebrick with your bare hands while the stove is operating, and then come back and tell us (i.e. type out) what it felt like.

Do a search for "insulation materials" and you'll see a thread where this was delved into in detail and showed exactly the opposite of your opinion.

Methinks your anti-government disposition is clouding your reasoning.

 

[laynes69]

I'll say this in comparison to our old woodfurnace. I would load close to 6 cu.ft of wood to the baffle to wake up to very few coals, and a house thats 68* and have the central furnace running. With the epa furnace, I load 3 Cu.Ft. of wood wake up later to a 70* house and a better coal bed. Damn that government... :lol:

 

[EL DRIFTO]

that just makes it sound like everything the gov does sucks

All I've had is this stove & it feels like the heat comes out of it

I could of got a similar effect if I put in a adj flue damper & let the stove air adj wide open to keep it no more restricted than the secondary air inlet...

I may have too strong a draft for some reason & a little slowdown is in order on my setup maybe.
Either way, I need less wood to keep coals going now with the 70% restriction, single splits are relightable for 3 hours, instead of every hour or it goes out.

Another thing is that the stove was still warm this morning, there was so much air going through the dam thing, all the heat was going right out & imagine the make up air coming back into the house.

Usually the bottom front corner of the stove starts to get cold & loose heat in a few hours, now it's staying warm

it just feels like someone shut an open window inside the stove & I'm feeding less wood in to keep the house warm

this forum rocks
Merry Christmas

 

[boatboy63]

Considering it has been nearly 3 months since last update from the OP, I would love to know if he added another section or 2 of pipe and if it helped. He said he was going to but never gave an update. Don't leave us hangin man...inquiring minds want to know.