Anyone know anything about landscape lighting?

[jeffesonm]

I am putting in a stone wall/patio/firepit in the back yard. The wall is mostly done and I'm excavating down a few inches for the patio now. Before I put down gravel and lay the flag stones, I thought I would run some wire for future landscape lighting along the inside of the wall, maybe 6 or 8 evenly spaced, and perhaps another 2 on the steps down from the lawn.

I've wired up a few circuits in the house but never done landscape lighting. I gather it's low voltage via transformer. What gauge wire to the lights? 12/14/16? Should I just run them all in series on one circuit, or two circuits alternating like outlets on a kitchen counter? Do people still go halogen or are LEDs the way to go?

 

[Hogwildz]

1 word....Solar

 

[billb3]

I have solar lights long my driveway.
In Dec and Jan they only light up until about 6 or 7 PM
By May they are on all night.


Low voltage wire gauge depends on transformer amperage, length and number of lights.
There's a chart at the bottom of the page here:
http://www.lowes.com/cd_Exterior+Lighting+Buying+Guide_352182851_


It's important to balance the system so you don't have too low a voltage and dim lights or too high a voltage from not enough load on the transformer and short-lived lamps.

 

[jeffesonm]

Thanks... that chart is helpful. This is the look I am going for:

I want the lights to be as concealed as possible so not sure solar will be the trick here.

 

[Ashful]

1 word....Solar

You're kidding, right? They're easy to identify, because they light very poorly for just a few hours past dusk.

All my low volt stuff is on 300 watt transformers, so 25 amps capacity, so my yard is strung in AWG 10/2 landscape burial wire. Works pretty well, until you put a backhoe thru it.

My patio and walls are run in flex conduit, to junction boxes, THHN 10. Makes repair relatively easy, should I ever need it.

 

[fire245]

If you go with a 12,24, or 48v system I recommed you "star tap" so you voltage does not drop to low and cause the lights to be dimmer as you get away from the transformer. Run to a j spot inbetween with larger wire and feed out with 14 or 12awg. Kc master electrician

 

[begreen]

The cheap individual solar lights suck. Their electronics corrode within a year unless you pot them in silicone when new. That makes them useless in less than a year. As an alternative you can do solar, but wire it up like conventional 12v landscape, LED lighting and power the lights using a decent sized 12v battery with a solar panel and charging system.

 

[sportbikerider78]

What you are looking for is called "Hardscape lighting".
You should absolutely go LED. There are TONS of very cool lights out there for you to consider. If it was me, I would run 110V and install a concealed outlet box were you could plug in and switch anything you want. This way you could bring out a radio, fan, bug zapper, smoker, heck,,,anything. Grey unground pvc at 1" is dirt cheap...about $1.50/10 foot length and comes with the fittings molded into the pipe...no extra cost. Glue and go.

If you want to go on the cheap, buy a cheap 12V power supply (5A-10A should do it) and run that thin line from your house to the area.

I have built many systems for cars and motorcycles...and I trust these guys over a random Amazon purchase.

(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/hardscape-lighting-and-led-light-strips/page/1/)

A cheap option. I'd get 4-6 of them.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...d-light-strips/led-deckstep-accent-light/404/

Here is a higher cost option.
(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/hardscape-lighting-and-led-light-strips/led-hardscape-light-6in-landscape-retaining-wall-light-with-mortar-mounting-plate/1911/)

 

[Hogwildz]

I have a set of solar lights purchased at Kmart several years ago, still going strong. Stay lit till at least midnight, and enough light o find my key to unlock the door. The last set(different maker) lasted about 8 years. Run your wiring, and have at it. I'll stick em and forget em.

 

[jeffesonm]

What you are looking for is called "Hardscape lighting".
You should absolutely go LED. There are TONS of very cool lights out there for you to consider. If it was me, I would run 110V and install a concealed outlet box were you could plug in and switch anything you want. This way you could bring out a radio, fan, bug zapper, smoker, heck,,,anything. Grey unground pvc at 1" is dirt cheap...about $1.50/10 foot length and comes with the fittings molded into the pipe...no extra cost. Glue and go.

If you want to go on the cheap, buy a cheap 12V power supply (5A-10A should do it) and run that thin line from your house to the area.

I have built many systems for cars and motorcycles...and I trust these guys over a random Amazon purchase.

(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/cat/hardscape-lighting-and-led-light-strips/page/1/)

A cheap option. I'd get 4-6 of them.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...d-light-strips/led-deckstep-accent-light/404/

Here is a higher cost option.
(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/hardscape-lighting-and-led-light-strips/led-hardscape-light-6in-landscape-retaining-wall-light-with-mortar-mounting-plate/1911/)

Thanks for the feedback, super helpful. Good idea on the 110V as well, I'm sure I'll be wanting a radio out by the firepit sometime.

I did look at those guys and both of those lights actually. I'd really like something like this (broken link removed to http://www.kichler.com/products/product/1-led-with-bracket-gry-15744gry27.aspx) but no way I'm spending $60/ea on them. I want a super stealth install so may try to adapt those accent lights or roll my own.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Thanks for the feedback, super helpful. Good idea on the 110V as well, I'm sure I'll be wanting a radio out by the firepit sometime.

I did look at those guys and both of those lights actually. I'd really like something like this (broken link removed to http://www.kichler.com/products/product/1-led-with-bracket-gry-15744gry27.aspx) but no way I'm spending $60/ea on them. I want a super stealth install so may try to adapt those accent lights or roll my own.

No problem. Glad to help.
If you want to do this cheap, you can just look around for a bit and find the right stuff for very affordable prices. I'd say you can do it for <$50 and have a great results.

That is a complete rip off for 1 LED. Try these instead for $3/each. They are just as waterproof and you can screw the module to anything.
(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-module-strings/lbm-x3smd-series-high-power-led-module-string/145/)

Or these
https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...m-x3x3-series-high-power-led-sign-module/141/

Or these
(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/led-module-strings/lsmcc-series-constant-current-led-sign-module/945/)

Here are all the results I found for accent lighting. Lots of options for <$5 per module.
(broken link removed to https://www.superbrightleds.com/search/led-accent-lighting/module/)

 

[jeffesonm]

Thanks again... that first one looks perfect. I'm sure I have some 12V DC power supplies lying around here I could repurpose.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Just note that with LED's its not about the voltage. It is about the current...and how constant that is.

A low output LED might use 60mA and have a voltage drop (Vdrop) of 2.5V for each LED used in the string. So if you have a supply of 12V, you can only connect 4 LEDs before you have an issue. 2.5Vdrop per LED - 2.5*4 LEDS = 2 V left over after you drive them all. Of course, with a surplus of current from the driver you can always connect another power cord to it and run multiple sets in parrallel.

Your best bet is to give a call to a place like LED supply or Super bright LEDs and see what they suggest to use and buy it from them. You can get a 350mA driver with 110V-240V input for around $10-20. No point in cheaping out and risking destroying or under-driving your system.

 

[jeffesonm]

Good to know about the voltage drop. I was reading some last night about voltage drop vs wire size vs wire length. I have a 12V, 1000mA power supply from an old router I was hoping to use. I ordered one each of five different LEDs so I can see in person how big/bright they are. I will test with my multi meter and see what the voltage is after I hook up a few in series.

 

[jeffesonm]

Oh I am beginning to understand... voltage vs current... and that old brick transformer is constant current. So much learning.

 

[Ashful]

Oh I am beginning to understand... voltage vs current... and that old brick transformer is constant current. So much learning.

Transformers are not constant current, or constant voltage. A transformer is simply that... it transforms one voltage to another, on a constant ratio. A 12V transformer designed to run on 120V is simply a 1:10 ratio transformer. Watts in = watts out, multiplied by efficiency. So, if your mains voltage varies 110V - 120V, an unregulated 1:10 ratio transformer will vary its output 11 - 12V, accordingly.

All that said, I'm not sure you meant to say transformer. Unregulated transformers sort of went the way of the dodo bird, 20 - 30 years ago. They're still used in some applications, but definitely not the household item they were 50 years ago.

What sportbike is describing is that each LED has a voltage drop, and depending on how it's configured (biasing resistors), you may be able to string a few in series before running out of voltage headroom.

I've not played with LED lighting designed for residential use, but I used to use LEDs by the thousands in robotic vision systems. Those were purchased without biasing resistors, and so we would choose our own, for the required lumens.

The prior comments about wiring and voltage drop are simply a reference to Ohm's law, V = I*R. The wire has a fixed resistivity, based on material and cross-section, and when multiplied by the length of the wire gives you a fixed resistance. Multiply that resistance by the current you're pulling thru that wire, and you can calculate your voltage drop. I would be very surprised if LED lighting is pulling enough current to cause appreciable voltage drop thru any wire heavy enough to use in a landscape application. In cases such as these, durability or ruggedness often dictates wire size much larger than required for voltage/current.

 

[jeffesonm]

Sorry I should have stated constant voltage... I thought that's what this thing provides? Or at least tries to? But maybe only does at a constant load?

 

[Ashful]

What you have there is indeed a linear power supply / transformer. Whether regulated or unregulated, I can't say, but you are correct... constant voltage source, up to 1000 mA.

 

[sportbikerider78]

Here is a little clarity to put in your cap of knowledge.

High power LEDs (not what you are using) suck up lots of current. They do also heat up. Because of this, the R in V=IR changes dramatically. A good LED current driver will adjust for heat and keep output the same. If you are regulating just a voltage supply, you will get more flucuations and likely have and issue burning out your LED's.

Again,,,for this application...no worries. It should not be a high power LED system. But this is the kind of information you will run into if you start google'ing LEDs and power supplies.
Here is a very short summary of what I'm talking about.
http://www.amperor.com/products/led/constant_current_led_driver.html

 

[Ashful]

V = I R is applicable to resistance (incandescent) lights, but not LEDs, which have a nonlinear I-V relationship. In the useful range, V is usually fairly constant for a wide range of current. It's the biasing resistor that gives an LED lamp the appearance of some V = I R dependency.

Junction heating just causes decreased carrier mobility, thus lower current for the same V, but not according to a linear V = I*R.

 

[BrotherBart]

V = I R is applicable to resistance (incandescent) lights, but not LEDs, which have a nonlinear I-V relationship. In the useful range, V is usually fairly constant for a wide range of current. It's the biasing resistor that gives an LED lamp the appearance of some V = I R dependency.

Junction heating just causes decreased carrier mobility, thus lower current for the same V, but not according to a linear V = I*R.

Exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Ashful]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Sorry... we all have our specialties. You're scratching at the edges of my area of graduate research, on this one.

 

[BrotherBart]

I got my Masters in coeds.

 

[Ashful]

You had more fun.

 

[jeffesonm]

Got my sample LEDs today. These suckers are bright! Even the smallest one is pretty bright... I think for my purposes any of these will do.

Next I will figure out how to house that Little Dot SMB LED in the most discreet way possible.