Architectural shingles and vinyl siding

[Dug8498]

Morning All,

I know many of you are quite handy and have probably used many of siding/roofing products yourself so I'd like to get anyone's input that has had experience with any of these products. We are about to drop a good bit of money to replace the roof on our house and at the same time replace the pine siding original to the house. The house is a beautiful contemporary house, but the builder took some serious exterior shortcuts that I didn't really know enough about to see as an issue when we bought the place. There is no sheathing on the house, just vertical pine siding nailed to 2 inch wide nailers that run horizontally every 3-4 feet or so up the house. Terrible design, siding is constantly popping off, warping, etc.

Anyway, we have gotten a lot of quotes and the contractor we feel most comfortable with is planning on installing certainteed 50 year architectural shingles, and certainteed restoration classic vinyl siding.

I would have preferred to use something like fiber cement for the siding, but this is a huge project. All existing siding is being ripped off, sheathing and house wrap need to be added, new trim... Fiber cement/some other alternatives we looked at would have added another 10K or more to this project that we simply just can't afford

Is there anything I should be aware of with either of these products? I want to make sure both will last a very very long time if I'm going to be spending this kind of money. I know certainteed has had is fair share of complaints regarding its shingles, but i dont think they've been about these specific shingles. It also it seems most other brands i've researched also have at one time or another had major complaints about their products so i'm not quite sure what to do about that.

Thanks!

 

[SpaceBus]

Vinyl can melt in the sun, particularly if it is reflected from a high efficiency window. My wife and I are doing something similar. Almost, if not all of the first floor sheathing is toast along with some framing (already replaced). The house had cedar lap siding and it broke our hearts to destroy it, but most was cracked, splitting, falling down, curling, etc. We have finished one first floor exterior wall in solid stained (all six sides) pine board and batten with primed and painted pine trim. The second floor will be untreated cedar shingles with the same style trim. I would think you could get cedar shingles or another quality wood siding product for less than $5/sqft in Southern NH. I think we calculated that after stain and other materials we are less than $3/sqft on the pine B&B and about the same for the shingles.

I just saw an old zombie thread about Certainteed roofing shingles and how they don't hold up and homeowners were given the shaft by Certainteed. The relatively recently done asphalt architectural shingle roof looks like crap on our house and we want to change that in a few years. We are almost certainly going with metal, but had seriously considered hand made shakes for the roof.

 

[Dug8498]

Vinyl can melt in the sun, particularly if it is reflected from a high efficiency window. My wife and I are doing something similar. Almost, if not all of the first floor sheathing is toast along with some framing (already replaced). The house had cedar lap siding and it broke our hearts to destroy it, but most was cracked, splitting, falling down, curling, etc. We have finished one first floor exterior wall in solid stained (all six sides) pine board and batten with primed and painted pine trim. The second floor will be untreated cedar shingles with the same style trim. I would think you could get cedar shingles or another quality wood siding product for less than $5/sqft in Southern NH. I think we calculated that after stain and other materials we are less than $3/sqft on the pine B&B and about the same for the shingles.

I just saw an old zombie thread about Certainteed roofing shingles and how they don't hold up and homeowners were given the shaft by Certainteed. The relatively recently done asphalt architectural shingle roof looks like crap on our house and we want to change that in a few years. We are almost certainly going with metal, but had seriously considered hand made shakes for the roof.

Hey spacebus I appreciate the response. Do you have any experience with vinyl siding melting or is this just something you’ve heard? I’m also hearing many of these cautionary tales about vinyl siding but have never actually met anyone that has installed quality vinyl siding that’s had any issues. We have many houses in our neighborhood that get full sun pretty much all day and I don’t see any evidence of melted siding. Not doubting what you’re saying, just looking for real experience

I looked at wood siding. It would be way more expensive than vinyl, then needs to be painted and stained. I’m really looking to get away from continual maintenance as well. I have young kids and don’t want to be painting/ staining every 5 years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SpaceBus]

Hey spacebus I appreciate the response. Do you have any experience with vinyl siding melting or is this just something you’ve heard? I’m also hearing many of these cautionary tales about vinyl siding but have never actually met anyone that has installed quality vinyl siding that’s had any issues. We have many houses in our neighborhood that get full sun pretty much all day and I don’t see any evidence of melted siding. Not doubting what you’re saying, just looking for real experience

I looked at wood siding. It would be way more expensive than vinyl, then needs to be painted and stained. I’m really looking to get away from continual maintenance as well. I have young kids and don’t want to be painting/ staining every 5 years


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few houses in a subdivision I lived in about five years ago had some sections get all bacon-ey, but this was an extremely hot summer as well. Two weeks above 100f in Fayetteville NC. This particular case involved the sun reflecting off of a side window from a house 15-20' away. The siding didn't full on melt and fall off, but it was damaged. You are probably right and it won't be an issue for you, but vinyl in itself doesn't hold up well to children. Proper installation is key and definitely read the instructions yourself and check on whoever is installing it. Don't be shy, it's your money and good installers won't mind since they are doing it right. Product warranties require 100% proper installation by the book, no matter how silly or excessive the prep or installation might be according to the directions. I wouldn't call vinyl a no maintenance siding as it needs to be cleaned periodically on areas that continually get shade. Honestly it should be cleaned every year, and not pressure washed. A soft brush, like one used for washing cars, with soapy water is the best way. Aluminum siding would be the closest you could get to no maintenance siding, but that's fairly expensive if memory serves.

 

[peakbagger]

As bunch of IMHOs to do what you want with.

If you are getting the roof stripped (I strongly recommend it) have them lay down full coverage of ice and water shield top to bottom. Barring a tree poking a hole through the roof or bad flashing, that is the end of leaks. NH is definitely in the ice damming zone and many roofs get scarred up from shoveling or trying to get rid of ice dams. Once you have water shield the roof can dam all it wants and its not going to matter. I would also consider pulling the soffits and inspecting if you have proper roof venting. Preferably preformed "proper vents but at minimum there should be a 1" gap between the plywood and any insulation. Once you have that straight, have new soffits installed with generous venting. No drill in vents, or hidden vents holes hidden in the grooves. Go for a continuous vent 1" minimum metal with metal screening.

The next suggestion is gable end vents along with ridge vents. This is controversial many folks say that they are not needed or the gable end vents defeat the ridge vents. I do not agree, heat rises and I do not care how it leaves the attic.I do know that if its a properly insulated house with a cold attic, snow will build up on the ridgevents and stop air flow on the days when you most need it. If someone claims that the ridge vents will clear by themselves most likely has a leaky attic insulation system.

Before the new siding goes up, take a good look at the window flashing and air barrier underneath. If you see stains, its time to rework things before you hide it with vinyl. Ideally layering flashing so water always drains by gravity is the way to go but adhesive type flashing has gotten better in recent years so there is lot to be said for adding secondary flashing if it needs it.

"Vinyl is final" but it still starts to look old long before it wears out. For most folks it looks good for 20 years and that is "forever" and someone else gets to worry about it in the long run.

 

[peakbagger]

I have seen vinyl buckle due to poor installation practices which can end up distorting. Yes it can get damaged if the suns rays are concentrated. Vinyl has plasticizers in the blend to make them resilient, as the age the plascizers break down and they get brittle. When you are paying for premium product it probably going to be bit thicker and has a more stable blend.

Vinyl especially darker colors expand and contracts significantly with temp. If someone put cold vinyl up on cold day and cuts it tight with no clearance, its probably going to buckle at some point when it warms up. The opposite can happen when hot vinyl is installed and when it gets cold if contracts and pops out of the side trim. Usually the ind catches it and it rips off. The vinyl can shift side to side on the wall. The intent on most systems is that the nails are not set, the vinyl is supposed to be able to slide back and forth but if someone pounds the nail down tight weird things can happen.

If someone is going for long term siding, eastern white cedar shingles with short exposure have about the best longevity for a natural product but unless the homeowner wants the weathered look any stains or paint applied is going to need maintenance.A good expample of well down white cedar shingles are the AMC huts in the Whites Mountains, they use white cedar shingles for the walls and roof (with ice and water shield underneath. They also use a short exposure, my guess is an inch or two less than a standard install.

There are higher end architectural siding systems that are darn closed to forever but rarely used on homes. The systems that seem to be the longest lasting are the galvalume based panels with kynar coating. In most cases there is an entire waterproof barrier underneath and the siding is just there for looks and weather resistance for the underlying barrier.

 

[zrock]

Good quality vinyl installed properly you will never have a issue with it, the darker colors are a slightly better quality of vinyl. If it was me i would find a way to install hardi siding you will never have a issue with it and it will last a lifetime. As far as the roof installing gable vents will defeat the purpose of a ridge or roof vents. It will only cycle the air up top and not the full attic space. I have yet to see anyone that has a ridge/roof vent have issues from snow build up. I live way up north where we see lots of snow

 

[Dug8498]

We currently have soffit and gable vents. Attic ventilation i believe is good. I blew in insulation a few months ago and attic appeared to be dry and in very good shape. Don’t think the roof currently has a ridge vent so maybe do not have them install one? Or just have them board up the gable vents? Full ice and water shield will be installed and this guy has a phenomenal workmanship warranty, I’m not worried about the quality of the work he’ll do just the products themselves. Our roof is about 30 squares while I’d love to install a metal roof, the cost is extremely prohibitive

I would be very happy with 20-30 solid years out of a vinyl siding job. Doubt we’d be in the house and longer and if we were, at that point I wouldn’t mind shelling out some more money for new siding. At that point with proper sheathing and house wrap already in place, re-doing the siding would be substantially cheaper than it will he now. I also am aware that with kids it’s easy for a stray ball to crack siding from time to time, but I’d rather pay my one of my buddies a few hundred bucks to come over and replace a bit of vinyl siding than be locked into paying 4-5 grand every 5-8 years to repaint/ stain the house.

I would love to install cedar shingles but the cost on that is astronomical compared to vinyl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I see sections of vinyl siding all the time that look like they started melting. Sometimes it's behind a grill, other times there isn't an explanation other than reflection off a nearby house.

Since they aren't on my house, I can't comment on the quality of the materials or installation quality.

It's not uncommon though.

 

[blades]

ridge vent- very windy area, snow and rain get driven inside vent system evidence is on insulation. ( celulouse) - reminds me- been focused on other things- need to get a company out to look at that. 1990 build date, second layer roof on it. no idea when that was done.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

In preparation for foaming the roof deck, I had the roofers remove my ridge vent.

I can tell you a prime spot for critters entering a house is those vents. Bats, squirrels, and raccoons have all torn their way into them. Some styles are better than others. On 1 house we got footage of mice running around on the roof!

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Dug8498]

I see sections of vinyl siding all the time that look like they started melting. Sometimes it's behind a grill, other times there isn't an explanation other than reflection off a nearby house.

Since they aren't on my house, I can't comment on the quality of the materials or installation quality.

It's not uncommon though.

Thank you. I will have to look at the specs of the warranty, both material and workmanship to see what they say about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dug8498]

In preparation for foaming the roof deck, I had the roofers remove my ridge vent.

I can tell you a prime spot for critters entering a house is those vents. Bats, squirrels, and raccoons have all torn their way into them. Some styles are better than others. On 1 house we got footage of mice running around on the roof!

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

If our current roof ventilation is good without a ridge vent would you recommend it just not be added when they redo the roof? It is part of his proposal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[EatenByLimestone]

There is a formula for roof ventilation. You should be able to figure out how much ventilation you need and if you have enough.

 

[peakbagger]

Yup same thing happened on my roof over my bulkhead. I had the type that looks like layers of cardboard made out of black plastic. They gnawed their way in on one end under the shingle and it took quite awhile to figure out how they got iin. Anyone that thinks that the gable end vents somehow short circuit ventilation of the roof deck above the soffits do not understand the intent of attic ventilation. Sure if you want to force ventilate the space you could have short circuiting but the vast majority of attics are gravity circulation, the bottom of the roof deck is hotter than the air underneath it. The hot decking transfers heat to the air underneath it , the air gets less dense and it rises up against the roof into the attic space and cold air follows it up the soffits. Once its up in the attic the goal is get it out. Some folks argue that wind flowing over the ridge vent forms a venturi and sucks the heat out but unless its a hurricane it flows no more air than the equivalent of having a vent pipe sticking up through the roof. Others think the whirlbird ventilators are magic and install them they are no better than a vent pipe.

IMHO leave the gable end vents and if you want to add ridge vent made out of metal so the squirrels do not gnaw through it, great. Most gable end vents are undersized so having more ventilation is not a bad thing. BTW, gable end vents can on rare occasions even if equipped with louvers and screen can contribute to fine blowing snow getting in the attic. It gets on insulation, then melts and drips down through the ceiling eventually leaving a stain, The fix is to put in a tray lined with plastic inside the vent so on the rate occasion that snow gets it, it just melts in the tray before it causes a problem.

 

[MTY]

Tru Cedar might be worth a look. It is standing rib, board and batten metal siding. I am putting it on this week. Ask me in twenty years if it was a good idea.

Gable and soffit vents scare me. Embers from forest fires get into them.

 

[Dug8498]

Tru Cedar might be worth a look. It is standing rib, board and batten metal siding. I am putting it on this week. Ask me in twenty years if it was a good idea.

Gable and soffit vents scare me. Embers from forest fires get into them.

I did look at cedar for both the siding and the roof but it’s unfortunately cost prohibitive for us at this point unless I installed it myself, which I simply don’t have time to do. I will check out the board and barren metal siding though, I’ve never heard of that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[peakbagger]

The Tru Cedar is intriguing. Unfortunately the website is big on "gloss" and small on technical details. It doesn't indicate if its galvalume base which is the "gold' standard for most steel based systems.https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/565/galvalume

They do show a PVDF coating system (AKA Kynar) which is long term "plastic" durable system.

Galvalume with PVDF is pretty well proven on roofing systems so its going to last if installed properly.

My guess is its a big added cost compared to vinyl. It comes back to do you need a 50 year product if you are only going to be there 10?. Will the extra cost be something that you get back when you sell?.

 

[SpaceBus]

Cedar shingles are pretty easy and forgiving to install to be honest. Especially if you use air tools. A tiny compressor for one stapler will be very inexpensive. It goes quick and you could even work on it for a few hours a day once the house wrap and strapping are up. There are also house wrap style products for siding that have a built in air gap. We are going to try it on our second floor. The first floor is wood board and batten so we used horizontal wood strapping. This is also an option and strapping is about $0.25/linear foot.

 

[zrock]

Will you get the additional cost back when you sell.. Definitely... Most people do not want to have to buy a house were they are going to have to redo a roof or siding in 5 to 10 years and live through the reno/work. I will take a house that i wont have to touch for another 40 or so years any day. I have walked away from great homes do to the fact the roof would have to be done in 10 years or so even though i could have negotiated it into the price of the home. The way i look at it is do it right the first time and make it last..

 

[MTY]

The Tru Cedar is intriguing. Unfortunately the website is big on "gloss" and small on technical details. It doesn't indicate if its galvalume base which is the "gold' standard for most steel based systems.https://www.corrosionpedia.com/definition/565/galvalume

They do show a PVDF coating system (AKA Kynar) which is long term "plastic" durable system.

Galvalume with PVDF is pretty well proven on roofing systems so its going to last if installed properly.

My guess is its a big added cost compared to vinyl. It comes back to do you need a 50 year product if you are only going to be there 10?. Will the extra cost be something that you get back when you sell?.

A lot of ass scratching went into the decision to put this on. I had a quote of $29,587 for regular painted galvalume board and batten. The house is 24 squares.

However, the house also has quite a few windows, so the material is about 12 squares. I found a used break, hired someone to put it on, and figure I will finish up at about $10,000 to $12,000. I hope to come out on the low end, but with construction something always bites.

I have no intention of selling. At my age, I intend to die in it. I just do not want to paint etc. when I am 90.

Not only that, it should be more durable than vinyl, more fire resistant than vinly, and look better than vinyl.

 

[Dug8498]

Cedar shingles are pretty easy and forgiving to install to be honest. Especially if you use air tools. A tiny compressor for one stapler will be very inexpensive. It goes quick and you could even work on it for a few hours a day once the house wrap and strapping are up. There are also house wrap style products for siding that have a built in air gap. We are going to try it on our second floor. The first floor is wood board and batten so we used horizontal wood strapping. This is also an option and strapping is about $0.25/linear foot.

I have thought about doing that, but we have a damn big house to do that to. The house itself isn't all that large, 1400 sq ft above ground, but it has a mudroom connecting to a very large 2 car garage that's basically the size of another small house. It would take me a long time and I have a 2 month old at home. I simply don't have that kind of time right now. The other thing is maintenance- i don't want to be staining every 5-7 years. Unless I'm willing to do it myself, i'd imagine it would be 5-10K to pay a company to stain the house

 

[Dug8498]

Tru Cedar might be worth a look. It is standing rib, board and batten metal siding. I am putting it on this week. Ask me in twenty years if it was a good idea.

Gable and soffit vents scare me. Embers from forest fires get into them.

I see here you aren't talking about actual cedar. I checked out their product page, it looks pretty cool. I'd be curious to know if anyone in my area had any clue about installing. I sent the company an email to see if they have any people in the area that are certified to install. Post some pics please and let us know how you like it. I would love to use a metal product over plastic if it looks good as long as it's not in another universe price wise which I'm afraid it might be

 

[SpaceBus]

I have thought about doing that, but we have a damn big house to do that to. The house itself isn't all that large, 1400 sq ft above ground, but it has a mudroom connecting to a very large 2 car garage that's basically the size of another small house. It would take me a long time and I have a 2 month old at home. I simply don't have that kind of time right now. The other thing is maintenance- i don't want to be staining every 5-7 years. Unless I'm willing to do it myself, i'd imagine it would be 5-10K to pay a company to stain the house

I see. Well, if it helps you don't have to stain white cedar shingles unless you just want a different color. They will naturally turn grey and some people actually use a product to accelerate that change. We don't plan on using anything on the cedar shingles we will be installing on our house.

 

[redmanlcs]

I live in WV, and our summer temps get no hotter than 102 or so F. No problems with vinyl siding if its installed correctly. Hopefully the contractor "hangs" the siding instead of nailing them tight. That will have very ugly results.

As for the roofing, I hate shingles, asphalt or cedar or otherwise although the cemented in ceramic tiles are awesome at im guessing 100 bucks per tile... I would definitely go with metal roofing in the thickest gauge possible but not the "tin" very thin stuff... If I could afford it.. The cost of replacing shingles every 20 years, regardless of the "rated" lifespan, vs a one time purchase.... just my .o2