-
Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.
We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.
We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
- Status
GVA
Minister of Fire
Spike let me describe another part of the testing lab where the test for clearances the stove must have 50 sensors and wires attached to it to monitor its entire stove surface temp Next it is placed on a testy burning like stage where the walls have equally as many monitors on them. All temps are monitored these are movable walls and the distance where the temp passes the acceptable range then becomes part of the listing. Then there is the wall with the NFpa 211 reduced clearance again everything is monitored and recorded during the test the stove also can be rotated for conor installations Everything is monitored on a computer. Every probe or sensor on the stove and the wall and floor even the area above None of these final specs written are I think this will work they are tested and proved over and over again Even before the official UL testing. I'm sure all stove companies do similar testing or hire labs to do the same. I'm just glad I saw the actual setup Even the exhaust is monitored for smoke and particulate captured by filers. Like I said while I was there they were testing a pre fab fireplace to find out why smoke deposits occurred on the glass with real world fire wood. Not the 15 lbs of KD fir the EPA requires.
Spike I really wish you came with me, knowing what it takes to work with metal. For a messy foundry this was impressively clean. The recycle efforts impressed me including, even the water used in the process. Naturally when the Head of engineering accompanied me around, all workers look busy, but I looked back and ahead even before we came within eye site. Everybody was busy and real professional about doing their job. While there a parts was rejected before they continued down the line So I asked the engineer how they determine quality I could see nothing wrong this this rejected cast frying pan the guy told me the color of the cast of the handle are looked suspicions and that usually means the cast was not as good as the others I held a good one and the rejected one and finally did see the slight color difference. I mean these are rolling by.. It is hard to imagine being able to spot that. The engineer smiles and tells me that's his job, he has been doing this for the past 15 years.
Spike they are using stainless steel bolts 3200 degree never seize. You know what they were very attentive to what we were saying. They measured the question we had about the BTu s and area claims. They wanted to know what is being said about their products outside the plant and on Hearth.com. They picked my brain as much as I did theirs. They monitor Hearth.com.
Why do you think they took the time to give me a guided tour. Like Apple they fed me info that they hoped I would leak out such as the super Cat combustor made of stainless steel. That out preforms everything on the market today. I asked them about the cats sold by Stove combustors.com and if they were better and if so why not use them. They admitted they were better than their OEM combustors, however due to contractual commitments and negotiations of pricing, they did not find their way into VC stoves. Bottom line these combustors were not economically feasible .VC did not like the price. I feel we were give honest answers
Spike I really wish you came with me, knowing what it takes to work with metal. For a messy foundry this was impressively clean. The recycle efforts impressed me including, even the water used in the process. Naturally when the Head of engineering accompanied me around, all workers look busy, but I looked back and ahead even before we came within eye site. Everybody was busy and real professional about doing their job. While there a parts was rejected before they continued down the line So I asked the engineer how they determine quality I could see nothing wrong this this rejected cast frying pan the guy told me the color of the cast of the handle are looked suspicions and that usually means the cast was not as good as the others I held a good one and the rejected one and finally did see the slight color difference. I mean these are rolling by.. It is hard to imagine being able to spot that. The engineer smiles and tells me that's his job, he has been doing this for the past 15 years.
Spike they are using stainless steel bolts 3200 degree never seize. You know what they were very attentive to what we were saying. They measured the question we had about the BTu s and area claims. They wanted to know what is being said about their products outside the plant and on Hearth.com. They picked my brain as much as I did theirs. They monitor Hearth.com.
Why do you think they took the time to give me a guided tour. Like Apple they fed me info that they hoped I would leak out such as the super Cat combustor made of stainless steel. That out preforms everything on the market today. I asked them about the cats sold by Stove combustors.com and if they were better and if so why not use them. They admitted they were better than their OEM combustors, however due to contractual commitments and negotiations of pricing, they did not find their way into VC stoves. Bottom line these combustors were not economically feasible .VC did not like the price. I feel we were give honest answers
Corie
Minister of Fire
Todd
Minister of Fire
Sounds like a great tour. Any more info on those new cats? What are the light off temps? When are they going to be available? How long do they last?
Retrospect, I have more question now than before. The I should haves. I believe it may be possible to do this again and also include the soapstone manufactures located only 15 miles away like Woodstock. Two years ago when VC/ CFM had financial problems many VC workers in management and R&D exited to Jotul in Portland Maine
Vc has presence in many other stove manufactures more than anyone can guess, Including holding patterns or joint ownership. They also cast parts for these very Manufactures.
I love the post where someone disses Vc, yet they are contemplating purchasing brand X from another manufacturer. The parts are cast by VC and VC hold some of the pattern rights
You know the all steel stoves with cast iron doors? How many of those doors could be cast in VT. What about cast parts used in pellet stove construction?
Vc has presence in many other stove manufactures more than anyone can guess, Including holding patterns or joint ownership. They also cast parts for these very Manufactures.
I love the post where someone disses Vc, yet they are contemplating purchasing brand X from another manufacturer. The parts are cast by VC and VC hold some of the pattern rights
You know the all steel stoves with cast iron doors? How many of those doors could be cast in VT. What about cast parts used in pellet stove construction?
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
I can second everything Elk has been saying about VC - they seemed to be extremely concerned about quality and everything I saw showed it. I posted some of the stuff about what we saw over in the thread on the donor program yesterday.
I'm quite impressed and felt like this was a very genuine tour, I didn't feel like anything was happening that set off my "B.S. Detector" We asked questions, they answered, and I didn't get any sort of feeling they were trying to hide anything. We did overlap with the lunch hour, so we missed some of the busiest production periods, but the folks we saw working were very professional, and competent.
I've been on other tours of places like the Harley plant down in PA, or the Bud plant in Merrimac, NH - those places you definitely felt like there was a lot of "show" in the tour setup. They had definite barriers in place to keep the tourists out of the production areas, etc. Here there were obviously no provisions for "tourists". We were walking on the production floor, among the production equipment and they didn't have any particular barriers. (Instead they were trusting us not to do stupid stuff...)
I've been on the other end of the corporate show and tell routine, in my last job (Comverse Network Systems) we had fairly frequent groups coming through the production floor, some of whom were clearly more important than others - I definitely felt like we were getting the "VIP treatment".
We did try to push Hearth.com, and hopefully we will have encouraged some of their people to be more visibly present here.
About the Everburn - Tradergordo actually did a pretty good job of describing it in his post on the large Dutchwest. There is very little difference in the refractories between the different models, most of the difference is the size of the firebacks.
There is a "shoe" made from refractory in the center rear of the firebox that has a number of passages in it. The coal bed of the fire is supposed to be pushed into the area around the shoe. When the Everburn is engaged, the combustion gasses pass over and / or through the coal bed into the passages in the shoe, which lead to the secondary combustion chamber. The effect is like the jets on a gas burner in the way that the gasses are made to flow in carefully controlled patterns. At the same time, other passages feed in a mix of air from the primary air supply that is user controlled, and the thermostatically controlled secondary air supply. This causes the combustion gasses to burn at about 1400*F, further heating the refractory, which in turn feeds the heat back into the combustion gasses and pre-heats the incoming air to keep the temperature hot enough to sustain the combustion. It is basically functioning as a wood gasifier. The extra heat from the secondary combustion goes into the fireback, which radiates it into the firebox to help combust the primary wood.
The other good discussion we had was talking about the different BTU ratings that manufacturers applied to their stoves. What they said (and had graphs using their own stoves to back it up) is that the critical number is really the size of the firebox. Wood has a certain amount of BTU's per volume, and you can only stuff a certain amount of it into a box of a given size. Thus a stove with a given size firebox will put out about the same TOTAL number of BTU's no matter who makes it. The question is how long does one take to get those BTU's? By design or control settings, one can either burn the wood comparatively quickly and get a high output for a short time, or burn it slowly and get a lower output for a longer time period. They had graphs made of several models of their stoves where they ran the stove at different rates, and had either short burns with high peaks, or slow burns with a fairly flat output. They choose to use the flat curve numbers with the long burn time. Other manufacturers choose the curves with higher outputs, but don't tell you that in order to get the high output you will be burning more wood because you are refueling more often. I happen to think this is a more legitimate approach, but opinions may vary. VC mentioned that they had one of their stoves that is "rated" at 40K BTU/HR putting out a sustained 125K BTU/HR without over firing, but didn't think that it was good to need to refuel every two hours to get that number. They felt it was better to rate at 40K and know that at that rate they were good for a 10+ hour burn without refueling.
Lots of good information.
Gooserider
I'm quite impressed and felt like this was a very genuine tour, I didn't feel like anything was happening that set off my "B.S. Detector" We asked questions, they answered, and I didn't get any sort of feeling they were trying to hide anything. We did overlap with the lunch hour, so we missed some of the busiest production periods, but the folks we saw working were very professional, and competent.
I've been on other tours of places like the Harley plant down in PA, or the Bud plant in Merrimac, NH - those places you definitely felt like there was a lot of "show" in the tour setup. They had definite barriers in place to keep the tourists out of the production areas, etc. Here there were obviously no provisions for "tourists". We were walking on the production floor, among the production equipment and they didn't have any particular barriers. (Instead they were trusting us not to do stupid stuff...)
I've been on the other end of the corporate show and tell routine, in my last job (Comverse Network Systems) we had fairly frequent groups coming through the production floor, some of whom were clearly more important than others - I definitely felt like we were getting the "VIP treatment".
We did try to push Hearth.com, and hopefully we will have encouraged some of their people to be more visibly present here.
About the Everburn - Tradergordo actually did a pretty good job of describing it in his post on the large Dutchwest. There is very little difference in the refractories between the different models, most of the difference is the size of the firebacks.
There is a "shoe" made from refractory in the center rear of the firebox that has a number of passages in it. The coal bed of the fire is supposed to be pushed into the area around the shoe. When the Everburn is engaged, the combustion gasses pass over and / or through the coal bed into the passages in the shoe, which lead to the secondary combustion chamber. The effect is like the jets on a gas burner in the way that the gasses are made to flow in carefully controlled patterns. At the same time, other passages feed in a mix of air from the primary air supply that is user controlled, and the thermostatically controlled secondary air supply. This causes the combustion gasses to burn at about 1400*F, further heating the refractory, which in turn feeds the heat back into the combustion gasses and pre-heats the incoming air to keep the temperature hot enough to sustain the combustion. It is basically functioning as a wood gasifier. The extra heat from the secondary combustion goes into the fireback, which radiates it into the firebox to help combust the primary wood.
The other good discussion we had was talking about the different BTU ratings that manufacturers applied to their stoves. What they said (and had graphs using their own stoves to back it up) is that the critical number is really the size of the firebox. Wood has a certain amount of BTU's per volume, and you can only stuff a certain amount of it into a box of a given size. Thus a stove with a given size firebox will put out about the same TOTAL number of BTU's no matter who makes it. The question is how long does one take to get those BTU's? By design or control settings, one can either burn the wood comparatively quickly and get a high output for a short time, or burn it slowly and get a lower output for a longer time period. They had graphs made of several models of their stoves where they ran the stove at different rates, and had either short burns with high peaks, or slow burns with a fairly flat output. They choose to use the flat curve numbers with the long burn time. Other manufacturers choose the curves with higher outputs, but don't tell you that in order to get the high output you will be burning more wood because you are refueling more often. I happen to think this is a more legitimate approach, but opinions may vary. VC mentioned that they had one of their stoves that is "rated" at 40K BTU/HR putting out a sustained 125K BTU/HR without over firing, but didn't think that it was good to need to refuel every two hours to get that number. They felt it was better to rate at 40K and know that at that rate they were good for a 10+ hour burn without refueling.
Lots of good information.
Gooserider
Tucked away in the R&D section was a complete wood working shop. Here they were working on building wood molds for their next insert. Another guy was checking the castings on their next line of fireplaces, including a supersize Pre fab. There 4 guys were in another room computer modeling. THE HEAD ENGINEER ASKED ONE TO BRING UP A PRODUCT ON THE COMPUTER SCREEN AND SHOW HOW IT IS VIEWED ROTATED IT WITH EVERY CROSS-SECTIONAL VIEW POSSIBLE (Sorry caps key) we were looking at their future large fireplase designs the one the guy in the shop behind him was checking the casting on, the head molder
webbie
Seasoned Moderator
In the did you know: They process 46% recycled iron mostly brake parts 10,000 lbs an hour
Craig you got to get that green sand for castings
Another did you know: the Defiant is tested and can be used with the 6" flue collar adapter, but not with the open doors fire screen option
Red enamal uses cadium in the process All workers have to wear full haz mat suits and can only work one hour during the process ,then another team comes in to continue the process
This explains why the red enamal stoves are priced more
VC also cast parts for other manufactures and not just stove parts frying pans More and more other stove manufactures are turning to VC for their casting needs
they could do a run and have it delivered on the East coast in less than a day. Castings from China takes 4 months.
Did you know they own or jountly hold many of the patterns that Harman uses for bottom feed pellet stoves.
Thats right Harry, your Harmans are partly VC designs
BB ask Englander where their cast iron parts come from?
the centry line is being phased out and now all wood stoves are manufactured in North America. They even have stopped importing ductial iron from China
More and more stove manufactures are turning to Vc for castings. They are actually bringing back work that used to go to China
Craig you got to get that green sand for castings
Another did you know: the Defiant is tested and can be used with the 6" flue collar adapter, but not with the open doors fire screen option
Red enamal uses cadium in the process All workers have to wear full haz mat suits and can only work one hour during the process ,then another team comes in to continue the process
This explains why the red enamal stoves are priced more
VC also cast parts for other manufactures and not just stove parts frying pans More and more other stove manufactures are turning to VC for their casting needs
they could do a run and have it delivered on the East coast in less than a day. Castings from China takes 4 months.
Did you know they own or jountly hold many of the patterns that Harman uses for bottom feed pellet stoves.
Thats right Harry, your Harmans are partly VC designs
BB ask Englander where their cast iron parts come from?
the centry line is being phased out and now all wood stoves are manufactured in North America. They even have stopped importing ductial iron from China
More and more stove manufactures are turning to Vc for castings. They are actually bringing back work that used to go to China
Coaster said:
Unfortunately I did nor seee an aspen or Dutch West at the time. They were essembling the Encores but I can call and ask any questions you want answers for
Warren there were plenty of intrepids there, I will do a follow up call to see if they are going to introduce the everburn system to them.
Personally the everburn setup may take space in a small fire box. Companies do not do upgrading till the line is due for re-certification
I will also ask about the new cats combustors heat range and effeciencies. What they told me is, they are dealing with a price to bring to market.
Right now the super effecient cats and ever burn system, would be too expencive to bring to market. They are working on a way to make it economical
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
downeast said:
Good set of questions - A lot of them I don't know the answers to, but hopefully we can find out.
1. I didn't see any signs bragging about ISO certification, but having worked in several ISO certified plants, and helped in maintaining ISO certs, I will say that IMHO having an ISO certification is way over-rated. You can produce crap and get ISO certified as long as your documentation says "produce crap" OTOH, you can produce perfect products, but if you don't have 100% documented procedures, you won't get an ISO cert. ALL that ISO cares about is that your production procedures have written documentation, and that the production people use the docs. ISO is almost a "dumb-down" process in many ways, as the idea is to document something in such excruciating detail that a non-trained person could pick up the doc and make the product. There is NO provision for skilled crafts people doing the right thing.
2. I don't think you will find any kind of product these days that is sold without a bunch of legal waffling. The VC Warranty looked pretty straightforward to me, with the sort of exceptions that I would expect in a wood stove product - i.e. don't over fire, don't burn unaproved fuels, install per manual / codes, don't modify the stove, etc. I didn't see anything that I thought was "scary" in the way of exemptions. They also make the warranty transferrable w/ original proof of purchase, which is more than many do.
3. I don't know. Certainly they can ask us for help :lol:
4. Not sure what you mean by that, so I can't really answer. One thing I did notice was that except for test runs where a specific fuel load is specified, the fuel they burn in the test lab is "real wood" not anything special. The stuff I saw in the piles looked about the same as what I've got in my wood shed. (I didn't ask if they did any testing with Bio-Bricks or other "manufactured" fuel.)
5. We were told the iron they use is about 50-50 new metal and recycled metal. I'm not sure where the new metal comes from, the recycled stuff was largely brake drums and other cast metal parts, recognizable stuff in the piles waiting to go into the furnaces. They also recycle a large amount of stuff from their own plant, reject parts, mold sprues, and so forth. I don't know how the iron is QC'd, but the casting process itself is very heavily automated and computer controlled, including things like exactly how much metal gets poured into each mold, etc.
6. Very little of their stuff comes from offshore. Their plant can't make "ductile iron" parts, so those come from offshore, but everything else is produced inhouse or by domestic suppliers (Possible exception for minor parts like gasketing and bolts etc. which I don't know about, but anything cast they definitely make themselves) They even cast their own refractory parts (I don't know where the raw material for that comes from)
Gooserider
Let me say this I posted days before the tour and begged for questions any one needed to answer. Asking me afterwards to interpet a 4 hour tour is a little unfair
I did the best I could to be truthfull. If you have some older problems and need the answers then here is the number to the Chief engineer
Peter MacLleary 802 234 2384 Ask them but please report the answers here as for all to see the answers. Goose and I were told we could call any time if we had questions and handed Peter business card I seemed real sincere to me
your gripe # 3
on there web site there is a consumer help Number and it is a 1-800 I asked this question
question #5
All Iron ignots are from North America
question #6
All casings are in house all gaskets , and gasket cement is bought from Rutland I do not know where the b washers or bolts are bought from But I will or why don't you call if you need to know
#5 I don't have a clue in answering this/ Does anyone know if a manufacture comes to a customer home to explain how to use every stove?
I did the best I could to be truthfull. If you have some older problems and need the answers then here is the number to the Chief engineer
Peter MacLleary 802 234 2384 Ask them but please report the answers here as for all to see the answers. Goose and I were told we could call any time if we had questions and handed Peter business card I seemed real sincere to me
your gripe # 3
on there web site there is a consumer help Number and it is a 1-800 I asked this question
question #5
All Iron ignots are from North America
question #6
All casings are in house all gaskets , and gasket cement is bought from Rutland I do not know where the b washers or bolts are bought from But I will or why don't you call if you need to know
#5 I don't have a clue in answering this/ Does anyone know if a manufacture comes to a customer home to explain how to use every stove?
wg_bent
Minister of Fire
downeast said:
As the previous post said, ISO 9___ has nothing to do with quality control of the product, but having documented procedures, and a review process that looks for process improvement. I have a process for splitting firewood, and could probably come up with a document for that and a yearly set of improvements....I could get ISO cert with that.
I'm somewhat over simplifying this but I have a LOT of ISO training and it largely has to do with being able to sell product in europe. If VC stoves are sold in europe... you can probably bet they are ISO certified.
on #4 Review stoves WITH their users? What stove manufacturer does? No one from SBI called me to discuss my Osburn.
#3... How does that help quality? Do you get that offer from Ford? How about Honda? What about GE? Does Harmon offer that?
I agree that a bad reputation takes a long time to overcome, but VC first needs to convince their dealers. I know the local one here steers customers away from VC and at Morso.
Todd
Minister of Fire
Hey,
When is this new VC insert coming out? I would like to hear more info on this. I have a fireplace just itchin for some kind of insert or hearth stove.
Are they looking at having both cat and everburn together in one stove somehow? Woodstock told me they were looking into something like that.
When is this new VC insert coming out? I would like to hear more info on this. I have a fireplace just itchin for some kind of insert or hearth stove.
Are they looking at having both cat and everburn together in one stove somehow? Woodstock told me they were looking into something like that.
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
We didn't get an exact date, but I'd guess within a year. I'm guessing that much will depend on how the debugging process goes, and what kind of problems they have with testing. What we were seeing looked like it was relatively early in the process.Todd said:
That is what they seemed to be talking about. The question is largely how to do it at an affordable price. I'd also be wondering a bit about whether they might be getting into the zone of diminishing returns. There is an old saw about the cleaning up the last 10% will take 90% of the effort. A modern stove is getting into the range of gas and oil appliances so I wonder how much cleaner they can be made and at what cost.
Gooserider
[quote author="downeast" date="1166151568"]A slight reality check is in order here guys. CFM/VC has a long way to go to erase the too many years of poor quality production since the buyout of the original Vermont Castings. Poor experience with the stoves since the mid-90's from dealers AND users.
1. Are the plants ISO 9___ series certified ?
2. Does "VC" now warranty their products without legal waffling ?
3. Can the user/customer call 1-800-HELP for assistance if the dealer cannot do the job ?
4. Does CFM/VC review their stoves WITH users ?
5. Where do the ingots for the casts originate ? Here, China ? How is the iron QC'd ?
6. How many parts in the stoves are outsourced offshore ?
Nicer job Elk, BUT.......we need to be shown before this honeymoon ends. Too many have been burnt (sic) by past product problems.
Flame away....................[/quote
let me add to my previous post
#1 please qualify how many stove manufactures are ISo certified. It would help readers to know. To the best of my knowledgw i know of none this being so please explain to all the importance why all others need ISO certification
#2 Please name some other manufactures, that do not waffal,so as to compare their warranties, to what you are asking of VC
I am more than willing to submitt your questions to VC, but want to qualify if you are asking more of them, than what is normal for the rest of the industry manufactures
1. Are the plants ISO 9___ series certified ?
2. Does "VC" now warranty their products without legal waffling ?
3. Can the user/customer call 1-800-HELP for assistance if the dealer cannot do the job ?
4. Does CFM/VC review their stoves WITH users ?
5. Where do the ingots for the casts originate ? Here, China ? How is the iron QC'd ?
6. How many parts in the stoves are outsourced offshore ?
Nicer job Elk, BUT.......we need to be shown before this honeymoon ends. Too many have been burnt (sic) by past product problems.
Flame away....................[/quote
let me add to my previous post
#1 please qualify how many stove manufactures are ISo certified. It would help readers to know. To the best of my knowledgw i know of none this being so please explain to all the importance why all others need ISO certification
#2 Please name some other manufactures, that do not waffal,so as to compare their warranties, to what you are asking of VC
I am more than willing to submitt your questions to VC, but want to qualify if you are asking more of them, than what is normal for the rest of the industry manufactures
downeast said:
let me add to my previous post
#1 please qualify how many stove manufactures are ISo certified. It would help readers to know. To the best of my knowledgw i know of none this being so please explain to all the importance why all others need ISO certification
#2 Please name some other manufactures, that do not waffal,so as to compare their warranties, to what you are asking of VC
I am more than willing to submitt your questions to VC, but want to qualify if you are asking more of them, than what is normal for the rest of the industry manufactures
I amswered #3 they have a 1800 help number pposted on their web site
#4 they reviewed their stove with me and I have two I don't know how many others they have done and I do not know if other manufactures are doing as you ask
#5 Again I answered this guestion when you first posted it all cast iron comes from USA ans recycled from USA or Canada
t doesn’t matter if “everybody else is doing it “. Ain’t the motto of say: Woodstock or Toyota or Jotul.......
Imagine Honda saying : “no one else complains”. Or ____.
You’ve rose-colored-glasses the company. Show us what has changed. It is their obligation in our open marketplace, not ours.
Good luck.
Be carefull there Guess who now makes the cast for woosstock Can't be VCc located 7 mikles away You would never believe it could be VC because sometime in the past
You and VC had a bad experience to you once you determine they suck they must always suck. Be real carefull who you determine is above their quality All manufactures that manufacture top loading grills had to deal with Vc for patten rights Harman Has to purchase the patten rights for bottom feed pellet stoves and working 3 shifts VC has taken on a lot of subcontract work for the very stoves you hold in such high esteme
I will ask them resonable question ones that I cannot answer
So who in your oppinoin is making the best cast iron stoves in USA or North America
Better yet Ask them Again I posted this phone # in the first response to your gripes MGR of Engineeering Peter MacLeary 802 234 2383
and please report the answers to the forum I represent them in know way I do not need crtiism for getting a donor stove to help others I answered as best I could. Either read the first response call Vc but I do not feel I should be on the receiving end of your distain for VC Name one other company that has donated a stove for less fortunate people? I'm all ears
If you have contacts that can bring other manufactures on board, please twist some arms or call in favors. Its all about helping others
here is the link to the thread where I posted the video of the tour decide for yourself call
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/quotereply/55946/
#4 they reviewed their stove with me and I have two I don't know how many others they have done and I do not know if other manufactures are doing as you ask
#5 Again I answered this guestion when you first posted it all cast iron comes from USA ans recycled from USA or Canada
t doesn’t matter if “everybody else is doing it “. Ain’t the motto of say: Woodstock or Toyota or Jotul.......
Imagine Honda saying : “no one else complains”. Or ____.
You’ve rose-colored-glasses the company. Show us what has changed. It is their obligation in our open marketplace, not ours.
Good luck.
Be carefull there Guess who now makes the cast for woosstock Can't be VCc located 7 mikles away You would never believe it could be VC because sometime in the past
You and VC had a bad experience to you once you determine they suck they must always suck. Be real carefull who you determine is above their quality All manufactures that manufacture top loading grills had to deal with Vc for patten rights Harman Has to purchase the patten rights for bottom feed pellet stoves and working 3 shifts VC has taken on a lot of subcontract work for the very stoves you hold in such high esteme
I will ask them resonable question ones that I cannot answer
So who in your oppinoin is making the best cast iron stoves in USA or North America
Better yet Ask them Again I posted this phone # in the first response to your gripes MGR of Engineeering Peter MacLeary 802 234 2383
and please report the answers to the forum I represent them in know way I do not need crtiism for getting a donor stove to help others I answered as best I could. Either read the first response call Vc but I do not feel I should be on the receiving end of your distain for VC Name one other company that has donated a stove for less fortunate people? I'm all ears
If you have contacts that can bring other manufactures on board, please twist some arms or call in favors. Its all about helping others
here is the link to the thread where I posted the video of the tour decide for yourself call
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/quotereply/55946/
Todd
Minister of Fire
elkimmeg said:
I was told by Woodstock that the cast was made in Belgium and the soapstone came from Canada.
I would pick better model companies
As memory recalls the laptop batteries made by sony in dell computers had a tendency to explode and I do belive some top end laptops high ends reash the price range of stoves
Howmany 25 year old laptops by dell do you see still s functioning
I believe toyota has had a few recalls http://www.automotive.com/new-cars/recalls/01/toyota/index.html
Toyota recalls 1 million trucks over flawed parts - 9/8/05 www.consumeraffairs.com/ news04/2006/07/toyota_recalls.html - 29k -
Toyota Recalls Near 800000 for July www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/ 0509/08/C01-307688.htm - 20k -
Toyota recalls nearly 1 million cars worldwide - Automotive ...
False alarm: Toyota recalls 220000 vehicles for lying check engine ...
Honda
Honda Recalls 200000 ATVs - Recalls
2006 Honda Accord Recalls, Problems, & 2006 Honda Accord Recall ...
Odyssey Minivan on Honda Recall List
Honda recalls 270000 vehicles in Japan and elsewhere - Autoblog
dell
Dell to recall 4 million batteries | CNET News.com
PC World - Dell Recalls Laptop Power Cords
Certain adapters may pose a risk of fire or electrical shock.
Sony
the battery thing just expanded
Upcoming Sony recall could expand to non-laptop gadgets - Engadget
Sony recalls risky 'rootkit' CDs | CNET News.com
Sony recalls Playstation 2 AC adaptors
Sony recalls eight Cyber-shot models - The Unofficial Apple Weblog ...
So these are the model companies you look up dell 0ooutsources tech support to India the person on the end of the line I can't understand his version of English I had no problem with Vermonters.. When I did a Recall search for Vermont castings the only recalls have been with Gas stoves or grillls due toa faul;ty robert shaw Valve
THERE were None LISTED FOR WOOD STOVES That That' what I call a model company
As memory recalls the laptop batteries made by sony in dell computers had a tendency to explode and I do belive some top end laptops high ends reash the price range of stoves
Howmany 25 year old laptops by dell do you see still s functioning
I believe toyota has had a few recalls http://www.automotive.com/new-cars/recalls/01/toyota/index.html
Toyota recalls 1 million trucks over flawed parts - 9/8/05 www.consumeraffairs.com/ news04/2006/07/toyota_recalls.html - 29k -
Toyota Recalls Near 800000 for July www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/ 0509/08/C01-307688.htm - 20k -
Toyota recalls nearly 1 million cars worldwide - Automotive ...
False alarm: Toyota recalls 220000 vehicles for lying check engine ...
Honda
Honda Recalls 200000 ATVs - Recalls
2006 Honda Accord Recalls, Problems, & 2006 Honda Accord Recall ...
Odyssey Minivan on Honda Recall List
Honda recalls 270000 vehicles in Japan and elsewhere - Autoblog
dell
Dell to recall 4 million batteries | CNET News.com
PC World - Dell Recalls Laptop Power Cords
Certain adapters may pose a risk of fire or electrical shock.
Sony
the battery thing just expanded
Upcoming Sony recall could expand to non-laptop gadgets - Engadget
Sony recalls risky 'rootkit' CDs | CNET News.com
Sony recalls Playstation 2 AC adaptors
Sony recalls eight Cyber-shot models - The Unofficial Apple Weblog ...
So these are the model companies you look up dell 0ooutsources tech support to India the person on the end of the line I can't understand his version of English I had no problem with Vermonters.. When I did a Recall search for Vermont castings the only recalls have been with Gas stoves or grillls due toa faul;ty robert shaw Valve
THERE were None LISTED FOR WOOD STOVES That That' what I call a model company
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
When Sony shipped their "rootkit" audio CD's it was with full knowledge that they installed software onto the systems of users that played those CD's on their PC's. The full knowledge that this software would cause security problems for users. Knowing it would hurt the performance of the user's PC's. Knowing it would interfere with the ability of users to use music from other sources and that it would interfere with the user's ability to make LEGAL fair use of the CD music that they had paid for. Knowing that the "phone home" behaviour of the rootkits would violate users reasonable expectations of privacy.
The CD's that Sony shipped directly violated several state and federal data security laws, and if Sony hadn't been a megabucks corporation should have led to the Sony executives doing some major time in "Club Fed" instead of the wrist slap that they got.
OTOH, the stuff that I've seen on the forums doesn't seem to have significantly more complaints about physical malfunctions or defects in VC stoves than in any other brands, and fewer than what I see with most any brand of pellet stove.
Gooserider
The CD's that Sony shipped directly violated several state and federal data security laws, and if Sony hadn't been a megabucks corporation should have led to the Sony executives doing some major time in "Club Fed" instead of the wrist slap that they got.
OTOH, the stuff that I've seen on the forums doesn't seem to have significantly more complaints about physical malfunctions or defects in VC stoves than in any other brands, and fewer than what I see with most any brand of pellet stove.
Gooserider
GVA
Minister of Fire
Let's leave the pellet stoves out of this, and go back to the topic at hand. ;-)Gooserider said:
Gooserider
Mod Emeritus
GVA said:
I'm not ranking on pellet stoves as such, just pointing out that there basically are very few if any hardware complaints about woodstoves of ANY brand. I will not hold tales of problems relating to normal wear and tear against a stove, or any sort of problems with a stove due to 'customer abuse'. If you overfire the stove and something melts, that is NOT the manufacturers fault....
I've spent less time on the Forums than many, but my impression is that VC doesn't have a lot of problems with their stoves. Considering the relative numbers of VC stoves out there compared to other brands, it doesn't seem they are doing that badly.
Gooserider
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
