Basement Garn

[Jersey Burner]

Hello All
I am new to the site and am in the process of determining the best gassifier set up for my application and user preferences. I was hoping to get some feedback regarding the placement of a Garn 2000 in a basement. My major concern is residual heat coming off the unit during the shoulder months and in the summer when firing for DHW. Could a well insulated basement Garn room with a well insulated Garn solve this issue?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[GENECOP]

Let the garn have the summer off. Get a Nyle Geyser heatpump for domestic, $20-$30 per month in electric, no hassle. Yes, if you do a good job insulating the Garn, you should be able to contain 95% of the heat....just seems like 1000 gallons of water is a lot to heat up just for domestic....

 

[Buzz Saw]

Let the garn have the summer off. Get a Nyle Geyser heatpump for domestic, $20-$30 per month in electric, no hassle. Yes, if you do a good job insulating the Garn, you should be able to contain 95% of the heat....just seems like 1000 gallons of water is a lot to heat up just for domestic....

What does one of those Nyle Geyer heatpumps cost?

 

[GENECOP]

About a grand.....I set one up last year, it even dhumidifies and air conditions my basement while making DHW....read up on them....

 

[ewdudley]

Hello All
I am new to the site and am in the process of determining the best gassifier set up for my application and user preferences. I was hoping to get some feedback regarding the placement of a Garn 2000 in a basement. My major concern is residual heat coming off the unit during the shoulder months and in the summer when firing for DHW. Could a well insulated basement Garn room with a well insulated Garn solve this issue?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Here's some calculations that might help you get a sense of the scale of the problem of heat loss from storage:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heat-loss-from-storage.122378/

I conclude that a pessimistic estimate of the heat loss from storage would be something like 200 watts added to the basement, or 0.06 ton refrigeration of additional sensible heat load in the event that all of that heat finds its way into air-conditioned parts of the house. If you're running air conditioning this should not be a big deal, plus you may prefer a warmer drier basement even in the summer.

On the other hand, 200 watts is about 16000 btu per day and a typical DHW load is on the order of 30000 btu per day, so you have to take that into account when estimating the cost of DHW in terms of cords of wood.

The clear loser for DHW in the summer is oil-fired tankless coil. Based on your situation/preferences any of solar thermal, resistance electric, heat-pump electric, and wood-fired storage can be good options.

 

[maple1]

It only costs us $25-30/mo for DHW in the summer (@ 0.18/kwh), using an ordinary (although fairly new) 80 gallon electric water heater.

 

[Jersey Burner]

Here's some calculations that might help you get a sense of the scale of the problem of heat loss from storage:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/heat-loss-from-storage.122378/

I conclude that a pessimistic estimate of the heat loss from storage would be something like 200 watts added to the basement, or 0.06 ton refrigeration of additional sensible heat load in the event that all of that heat finds its way into air-conditioned parts of the house. If you're running air conditioning this should not be a big deal, plus you may prefer a warmer drier basement even in the summer.

On the other hand, 200 watts is about 16000 btu per day and a typical DHW load is on the order of 30000 btu per day, so you have to take that into account when estimating the cost of DHW in terms of cords of wood.

The clear loser for DHW in the summer is oil-fired tankless coil. Based on your situation/preferences any of solar thermal, resistance electric, heat-pump electric, and wood-fired storage can be good options.

Thank you for the information. It appears that my concern can be mitigated with insulation. However, I need to weigh the cost savings from producing DHW with wood vs lp gas. In other words is saving $150 in lp costs (my estimate for May to Sept lp use to produce DHW) worth the extra cord of wood it will require me to c/s/s.

Primarily I just wanted to know if I put 2k of 195* water in my finished basement in August I could control the heat loss into the air conditioned space. Based on the tread you attached it appears R60 should do the trick.

 

[Jersey Burner]

Hello All
I am new to the site and am in the process of determining the best gassifier set up for my application and user preferences. I was hoping to get some feedback regarding the placement of a Garn 2000 in a basement. My major concern is residual heat coming off the unit during the shoulder months and in the summer when firing for DHW. Could a well insulated basement Garn room with a well insulated Garn solve this issue?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

It would be great to hear from any Garn owners with basement set ups regarding heat loss into the house. Thanks in advance.

 

[flyingcow]

Whether its a Garn or a 1000 gals of storage sitting by itself, it would be the same wouldn't it? Just figure doing a good r 21 or r 30 for insulation. I have 820 gals of storage in my basement. I've used that for for almost 7 yrs, including dhw in the summer. Works very well. Don't really notice any extra heat in the basement. But I only drive the tank to about 160 maybe 165f in the summer. I can hit 160 easy, but it seems 180 is a bit more of a push in the summer. Usually get 4 sometimes 5 days of dhw. That's a family of 5.

 

[mike van]

Are there any 'on demand' DHW heaters worth looking in to?

 

[pbvermont]

I believe Rinnai to make the most reliable, and best supported 'on demand' DHW heaters.

 

[TCaldwell]

I believe most of us garn owners have opted for a stand alone bldg or a attached bldg, allowing for wood storage. Have you seen a garn in action?,this might help with your decision.

 

[Jersey Burner]

Whether its a Garn or a 1000 gals of storage sitting by itself, it would be the same wouldn't it? Just figure doing a good r 21 or r 30 for insulation. I have 820 gals of storage in my basement. I've used that for for almost 7 yrs, including dhw in the summer. Works very well. Don't really notice any extra heat in the basement. But I only drive the tank to about 160 maybe 165f in the summer. I can hit 160 easy, but it seems 180 is a bit more of a push in the summer. Usually get 4 sometimes 5 days of dhw. That's a family of 5.

Point well taken I guess storage is storage. However,

I believe most of us garn owners have opted for a stand alone bldg or a attached bldg, allowing for wood storage. Have you seen a garn in action?,this might help with your decision.

No. I have not seen one in action. However, it is on my to do list. I've spoken with a Garn owner near where I live and hope to make the trip to see it soon. Thanks for the response.

 

[jebatty]

A Garn as well as any gasification boiler plus storage may be installed in a separate building with wood storage. I have experience with both. The Garn WHS 3200 plus a Wood Gun E500 both in a separate building plus room for wood storage. The Wood Gun also has a 4000 gal storage tank in the building, and the building has a small workshop. An additional advantage here is that the heat loss from the boilers + storage is the heat for the building, no additional heat is needed.

In addition my experience includes a Froling FHG-L70 plus 1600 gallons of storage in a separate building as the heat source plus dhw for a 4000 sq foot building, and limited wood storage (a few days). And my own Tarm Solo Plus 40 with 1000 gallon storage are installed in my shop.

Things to consider: 1) if the storage at least, and if possible the boiler also, are installed in a space otherwise to be heated, that space will make use of the substantial heat thrown off by the boiler during a burn and heat loss from the storage. Making use of that heat might add 5-10% to the effective heat output of the system. 2) A Garn has fixed storage while for a separate gasification boiler you can choose the amount of storage you want or can afford, plus you can locate the storage where it may be convenient or most useful. 3) A Garn is a batch burn boiler while most if not all gasification boilers can be burned nearly continuously, if needed, while the Garn (with which I have experience) cannot be burned continuously. Continuous burn may be important in a high demand application, like during a long cold spell of a couple of days. Batch burn boilers excel where the demand for hot water roughly is in the range of about 140F or less: burn to load the Garn tank to 180 or so, then the system draws down the storage to supply needed heat, then (batch) burn again. 4) A regular gasification boiler with storage can also be operated in batch burn application, but in addition it can work well if there is a regular or periodic need for water a lot hotter than 140F. To meet that need the gasification boiler likely will need to be burned more frequently than in batch burn mode, even continuously if needed.

There are other pluses or minuses for each, depending on your perspective or preferences. The point simply is, consider what might work best for you.

 

[maple1]

My gassification boiler cannot be burned continuosly - batch burn only until the wood is gone and storage is full.

It is also possible to put the boiler, storage, and the winters wood inside the building envelope. Mine is all in my basement. Having divorced storage also allows much more flexibility on where you can put stuff - I suspect most basements wouldn't allow the fitting of a Garn through their openings. I have a pretty wide basement entry at 4' at narrowest point, which I could fit what I have in through, but no way to a Garn.

 

[jebatty]

My gassification boiler cannot be burned continuosly

Isn't that only because your heat demand is less than your boiler output? The closer demand is to output, the more continuously the boiler needs to burn. While heat demand in a particular application may be 60% of boiler output at outside temp of +20F, heat demand may be 100% or more of boiler output at -40F. Those temperature ranges are typical in parts of the US, including were I live.

 

[maple1]

Isn't that only because your heat demand is less than your boiler output? The closer demand is to output, the more continuously the boiler needs to burn. While heat demand in a particular application may be 60% of boiler output at outside temp of +20F, heat demand may be 100% or more of boiler output at -40F. Those temperature ranges are typical in parts of the US, including were I live.

Well, I suppose - but I was interpreting being able to burn continuosly as being able to regulate its burn if output does exceed demand, and my air intake can't close, it is stopped open. Unless I physically close the stop by screwing a bolt in. I have yet to have my house load come close to the boiler output - this winter, the most I have burned in a day is 8 hours, and on a cold start & cold house once the boiler is up to temp there is always some heat going to storage, even if all zones are calling. Just my situation though.

 

[jebatty]

I see where you are coming from. At DP when temperatures are low, the Wood Gun and/or the Garn need to be burned continuously to meet demand, even though between the two there is 7200 gallons of water storage. The same with the wood stove in our living room which heats our house. Mild winter temperatures we "batch" burn, but when the temps get into the -10F and below range, we burn continuously, 24/7.

 

[TCaldwell]

If I was to do it again, I'd have a 2 car garage attached to my existing garage with a man door. My existing garage is attached along side the house. This would allow tending the boiler without going outside, plenty of wood storage and the minimal mess would not be in the house per se. Its a bummer walking outside to get to the boiler barn in the winter!

 

[heaterman]

I have a Garn customer in Canada that dropped (with a crane) a WHS2000 into his basement and literally built his new house over it. I can see if he would mind if I shared his contact info with you if you'd like.

 

[huffdawg]

How long does the average Garn last?

 

[heaterman]

I really don't know. I've seen them crowding 30 years and still going. Given adquate care and maintenance I don't think that would be abnormal.

 

[mike van]

Garn is in the new addition to the garage, I can get to it without getting wet or shoveling snow. I really miss the heat in the basement from the Harman, but not enough to ever go back to the threat of fire [chimney] or the moving of 6 to 8 cords of wood in by hand. I bring wood now on half cord pallets with my loader, never touched since put up 'till it goes into the Garn Right now, many nights at 0 or below, a half cord goes 10 days, maybe a little more. 3 1/2 cord so far this winter, good hardwood now, but a lot of poplar, pine, etc. early on. 2 a day firings. I don't know why anyone would want to burn one of these continuously, just the electric cost of running a 1/2 hp motor for 3 to 4 hours a day makes an impact on the electric bill. 24/7, you might just as well burn oil. The minimum water temp we want here is 135, colder than that, you don't want to get in the shower, nor does it clean dishes very well. Sometimes 10 pm at the end of a burn, the tank is at 200

 

[jebatty]

I don't know why anyone would want to burn one of these continuously .... The minimum water temp we want here is 135, colder than that, you don't want to get in the shower, nor does it clean dishes very well.

I fully agree with you. But you state the wrong issue. It's not "want" to burn continuously, it's "need" to burn, because of system demand, particularly during long cold spells. You say you already burn twice a day, what if you "needed" to burn 4, or 8 times a day, or in the case with which I am familiar, a 100 lb load every hour when temperatures get into the +10 to 15F range? And 100 lbs/hr is continuous burn, which is good for about 18 hours, after which the boiler needs to be burned down and nearly a barrel of hot coals need to be emptied because it's filled up with coals and won't take a wood load any longer. That's not an easy, short or welcome task.

I think the Garn is a very good boiler. DP is very satisfied with its WHS 3200. But due to system demand during low temperature periods, it also needs more, and the more is the Wood Gun E500 which can be burned continuously, as can most gasification boilers, same rate of 100 lbs/hr with no coal buildup.

My point has not changed: size the boiler appropriately, and, whether based on budget, need, space or whatever, be aware that some boilers can be burned continuously, if that becomes the need, but in my experience, this one cannot. If circumstances show that will not be the need, then compare and contrast, pick whatever boiler best meets your goals.

 

[mike van]

je, at 100 lbs/wood/hr I'd be changing fuel sources - Got to be a better way?