Berkeley Will Repeal Its Landmark Ban on Natural Gas in New Homes
The decision, which came after a legal challenge, throws into question the fate of dozens of similar measures across the United States.
Berkeley natural gas ban struck down
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Ashful
Minister of Fire
Interesting. Unfortunately that particular site is blocked by a nag screen, wanting us to create an account to read the article.
Huh, it’s asking me to do that now too. Maybe I’ve hit my free alotted ny times views for the month.
This one probably tells the same info.
www.utilitydive.com
This one probably tells the same info.
9th Circuit declines to reconsider decision rejecting Berkeley, California, natural gas ban
If the city wants to continue to appeal the decision, its next step would be the U.S. Supreme Court.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I’m wondering why they didn’t enact a stair stepping tax on NG. Anything based on EPA rules that is a bit of a reach doesn’t stand much of a chance at the Supreme Court. I don’t see issues with banning residential hookups. When it comes to commercial zones I do think NG probably has advantages that the users would pay the tax to keep using.
A ban on installs in new construction doesn't cost existing users anything, so it is more politically defensible than a usage tax.
And very slow to kick in.
And not defended successfully in practice anyway!
Why would you want to ban residential hookups for natural gas? What’s the difference between banning wood and natural gas? Wood has more carbon, it’d make sense to kill that first. On top of that, we’re an easier target since there are fewer of us to loudly whine about it.
Isn’t it easier to focus on decreasing energy usage in houses so whatever the fuel that is used the quantity goes down? Any time a roof is out on, insulation needs to be added to the roof. Any time a house is resided, the siding company must certify that there is at least R7 of foam board/insulation outside the framing to stop thermal bridging. I bet we’d have to look hard to find new single Payne windows.
Relatively small things can make huge differences in energy usage.
Isn’t it easier to focus on decreasing energy usage in houses so whatever the fuel that is used the quantity goes down? Any time a roof is out on, insulation needs to be added to the roof. Any time a house is resided, the siding company must certify that there is at least R7 of foam board/insulation outside the framing to stop thermal bridging. I bet we’d have to look hard to find new single Payne windows.
Relatively small things can make huge differences in energy usage.
With residential natural gas, there is a large amount of leakage. And methane has a very high global warming potential compared to CO2. So residential NG has a larger (on a 50 year timeframe) global warming effect than burning oil, wood or running a heat pump.
Burning NG in a power plant (to say run a heat pump) is much better, bc large ng leaks are detected and sealed, and you only have leaks in NG production and distribution.
But the residential, last mile network, and in peoples' houses and appliances... huge leak fraction.
Also, studies show that burning NG is bad for residents health, like asthma and increased respiratory issues.
But it is, ofc, entrenched.
FYI propane is much better in terms of global warming potential, usually assumed to be zero.
But if you make the structure better, it doesn’t matter what form the energy comes in, you use less of it. Conservation is a good thing. It’ll help cool a building too. You brought up respiratory issues, allowing a building to be warmer for the same fuel use, or use less of it to keep it the same temperature, will help with these things too.
Changing fuel source still requires the same number of BTUs every year to heat and cool. Fixing the structure decreases the number used for the remaining life of the structure.
Changing fuel source still requires the same number of BTUs every year to heat and cool. Fixing the structure decreases the number used for the remaining life of the structure.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I agree all buildings should be build to higher standards. Like R60-80 attic with 2x6 walls and blower door test mandatory for certificate of occupancy. Good luck getting that through. Not sure what the CA building code says currently but here just saying you built it tight is good enough and the inspector might not even really care how much insulation is there.
The state of Maine has had bills introduced in the legislature to ban extension of natural gas. https://energynews.us/2024/03/14/ma...ith plan,alignment with Maine's climate goals.
Unvented gas appliances are on their way out now that the long term indoor air impact of them on health is known, the link to childhood asthma seems to be getting out there. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819315/ The natural gas industry has known it for decades but they elected to go the big tobacco route. Vented heating units still make a lot of sense where electric power is expensive and natural gas is cheap despite the higher efficiency of heat pump type electric units. Various states and the federal government are targeting natural gas water heaters to be phased out and the new IRA act has very generous incentives for electric heat pump hot water heaters.
Unvented gas appliances are on their way out now that the long term indoor air impact of them on health is known, the link to childhood asthma seems to be getting out there. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9819315/ The natural gas industry has known it for decades but they elected to go the big tobacco route. Vented heating units still make a lot of sense where electric power is expensive and natural gas is cheap despite the higher efficiency of heat pump type electric units. Various states and the federal government are targeting natural gas water heaters to be phased out and the new IRA act has very generous incentives for electric heat pump hot water heaters.
I’ll throw in there that what works well South if the Mason Dixon line might not work as well in Wisconsin and other places up North.
That’s not saying we shouldn’t try to make things better.
I remember my house in Houston had roughly the same utility bill all year long. I was either paying for AC or heat. It was built in ‘99 with single pane windows. I moved out of there in 04, but if I’d stayed, I probably would have really blown in additional insulation in the attic! Obviously, upgrading windows would have made a big difference too.
How many houses like that exist around the country?
That’s not saying we shouldn’t try to make things better.
I remember my house in Houston had roughly the same utility bill all year long. I was either paying for AC or heat. It was built in ‘99 with single pane windows. I moved out of there in 04, but if I’d stayed, I probably would have really blown in additional insulation in the attic! Obviously, upgrading windows would have made a big difference too.
How many houses like that exist around the country?
Pretty poor justification, natural gas distribution network methane leaks are equivalent to less than 0.25% of the US Methane Emissions from cattle, or 1% if you can believe EDFs numbers.
Burning natural gas in a 40% efficient peaker power plant to operate a COP of 2.5 heat pump yields the exact same CO2 output as a 95% Eff gas furnace would. So why would you force people to switch for zero benefit? Particularly when in almost every case it is more expensive to heat with electric than gas?
Sure NOx from burning natural gas is harmful, pretty easy to fix that with a simple change to the gas code preventing new vent-less appliance installs, without an outright ban on natural gas.
Sure makes a lot of sense doesn't it? A state filled with high CO2 output oil burners in homes, but lets ban the least carbon intensive fossil fuel and keep burning oil instead.
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to put a heat pump water heater in a cool climate, as the primary heating system is the true source for the energy that water tank is using. Unless your running 2 systems that switch how the water is heated depending upon the season.
The 'ban' was in new construction, and never required ANYONE to switch. So you and Matt miss the point. They're just not piping new gas lines (that will leak in the future) into new construction, in a climate that is perfectly served by ASHPs, in a state where the grid has a significant and increasing renewable penetration.
The ban was a no brainer, but not sustainable on a city level.
And the residential networks out East in Boston and Philly are super leaky. You can drive a methane detector around the city in a car and detect methane hotspots everywhere. And since they are all under roads, they are very expensive to fix. In my own suburban neighborhood, there was a house where I could smell gas on the sidewalk every time I passed for over a year. It was reported many times, but required excavation and a year to fix.
And comparing one problem to another leaves me cold too. We emit waaay too much methane in NG production, distibution, end use leaks, poorly designed landfills and animal agriculture. This is also an opportunity, since if we can choke down the leaks, we can pull down a lot of associated forcing over a 10-20 year time frame. And that can 'buy us time' during the transition to low carbon tech.
I am no fan of Mass' me too approach to climate fixes. But a NG ban would make sense in the Northeast if the gas leaks in residential use had larger global warming forcing than the oil CO2 they displaced.
the 20 year GWP of methane is 85x that of CO2. If 2% of the NG going to a house is emitted unburned (including outdoors before it gets to the house), that NG appliance has higher global warming potential than an oil-fired appliance over the next 20 years.
Looks like Mass is trying to fix its leaks...
www.mma.org
Happy Earth Day!
Online maps illustrate progress of gas leak repair program - Massachusetts Municipal Association (MMA)
Massachusetts has one of the oldest natural gas systems in the country, with about 22% of the pipes under the ground considered “leakprone” in 2020, according to HEET, a Cambridge-based nonprofit dedicated to cutting emissions. In 2014, Massachusetts created the Gas System Enhancement Program to...
www.mma.org
Happy Earth Day!
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
National averages 40 years old. Even up north how many hour a year are you below say 30 degrees? I don’t know the answer. The grid will look completely diff in 10 years the gas furnace will last 20. Prohibiting any gas on new resi construction is a no brainer.
Average winter high in Albany, NY is 30. Low is 15.
Per btu, Electricity is 7x more expensive than NG when I calculated it last month.
We’re lucky, we are in a warm pocket. 1 hour in any direction and you could probably drop 10 degrees from each number.
Per btu, Electricity is 7x more expensive than NG when I calculated it last month.
We’re lucky, we are in a warm pocket. 1 hour in any direction and you could probably drop 10 degrees from each number.
Is that resistance heat or a heat pump?
Lots of studies have come out showing how bad gas stoves are for people's health. Our new place will have an induction stove. If we were staying here we'd put one in.
I have a single burner induction burner on my electric range on top of two disconnected burners. I do 95% of my cooking on it. Except for switching cookware, it is the way to go. I am tempted to remove the two old Calrods and drop in a two burner induction version. I got a few folks to try the single burner units and they have also made the swap. You can get them for less than $100. They heat up quick compared to a Calrod type element.
That is looking at my bill and converting both electricity and gas to a cost per million btus. 1 million btus moves the decimal point over enough to make the number relatable.
I was just looking at heat pumps again to try to convince myself I needed to buy one… actually 2. One 1 ton upstairs and another 1 ton downstairs. Looking at my electrical usage, which is stupidly consistent, I’d only be using the mini split 3 months of the year to cool. It would be a hard sell as my usage doesn’t really spike from air conditioning either. More of a “I don’t want to fit window units in anymore.” Vs this will save me money.
I just had the house resided and had insulation added to stop thermal bridging. It made a difference at the end of winter. I’m excited to see what it does for my cooling bill. The house should not absorb heat as quickly now.
I was just looking at heat pumps again to try to convince myself I needed to buy one… actually 2. One 1 ton upstairs and another 1 ton downstairs. Looking at my electrical usage, which is stupidly consistent, I’d only be using the mini split 3 months of the year to cool. It would be a hard sell as my usage doesn’t really spike from air conditioning either. More of a “I don’t want to fit window units in anymore.” Vs this will save me money.
I just had the house resided and had insulation added to stop thermal bridging. It made a difference at the end of winter. I’m excited to see what it does for my cooling bill. The house should not absorb heat as quickly now.
What btu does it throw ? I had to shop hard to find a burner that threw enough heat for my wife’s wok. I never looked at induction burners. They weren’t as popular when I bought my stove.
EbS-P
Minister of Fire
I went down the induction wok burner rabbit hole a couple years ago. Cooking for two 120v is ok. I needed a 240v. And that means expensive restaurant equipment. This one has good reviews
Ok, this is interesting. I didn’t know 240v burners existed. When I converted the stove to gas I took the already installed electric line and installed a sub panel right below thinking it would make it easier to rewire the kitchen some time in the future. I could easily run a line right up for the burner. I still haven’t really started the rewire project. All I’ve done was a new circuit to run the microwave I put in over the stove.
So many projects, so little time/want to do them!
So many projects, so little time/want to do them!
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