Best EFFICIENT direct vent gas stove to heat 2,000sqft.

[Eastwind]

Hi
I’m located in MA and currently have a 30 year old oil boiler that’s about to die and an older green Vermont castings looking Quadra fire saga stove as secondary heat. I am loathe to spend $9000 to replace the oil boiler and would rather upgrade my gas heating stove to something that can handle my nearly 2,000 SF home—basically a 4 square style with an open plan downstairs.
I love seeing pretty fire, but I’m mostly driven by efficiency, performance and cost.
I grew up with wood stoves so this is new territory for me.
The Quadrafire is almost doing a fine job, but I’m thinking if we size up and go for something newer we may save fuel.
Right now, when used regularly the gas bill can run about $300/month.
I’d love any advice for favorite models, and if you’re familiar with western mass., a dealer to work with.
Thank you!!

 

[DAKSY]

Couple Qs...
2,000 SF - how well is it insulated?
Not familiar with the Quad Saga...
What is it's BTU Rating & does it keep
your home as warm as you want?
You burning LP or NG?

 

[Eastwind]

Hi
It is an unknown model of Quadra fire. That was a typo above, I meant to write “gas” not “saga”.
It is a NG Stove that can do an ok job of heating the house,except in extreme cold weather. Although that might be different this winter as we just had the whole house insulated and air sealed last month.
We moved into the house last February in an extreme cold snap and no insulation. So we have not really experienced it under the new circumstances of insulation.
My main concern is that it’s not as efficient (though don’t really know) and not sized for whole house, primary heat source since the house also has a steam radiator system (that is failing).
Just want to invest my money the smartest way to keep warm.

-

Couple Qs...
2,000 SF - how well is it insulated?
Not familiar with the Quad Saga...
What is it's BTU Rating & does it keep
your home as warm as you want?
You burning LP or NG?

 

[Eastwind]

Ok—- a little more info: it is a top-vented Quadra fire “Sapphire” and it looks like it’s top BTU might be 30,000?

 

[wooduser]

<<The Quadrafire is almost doing a fine job, but I’m thinking if we size up and go for something newer we may save fuel.


Since you haven't posted the make and model of the stove, I conclude that you really don't know what you have.

If you look carefully, you should find a sticker or rating plate on the stove that lists the make, model, BTU input and other very useful information about the stove. With the make and model, you can do a Google search and probably find the manufacturer's guides to installing and operating the stove, which I suppose you don't have and which I would download, print off and keep with the stove.

In general, gas appliances, and gas direct vent stoves in particular, are generally engineered to be as efficient as they can be for the particular type of appliance that you have. So I'd be very surprised if you could improve on the efficiency of what you have by replacing it with something similar.

What kind of condition is the stove in? Does it appear to be clean and well taken care of, or beaten up over the years? What about the appearance of the logs and flames? Does this stove have a pilot light or an electric ignition system? (As an alternative source of heat, having a pilot light system that will operate when the electricity is out is a very good idea, in my experience as a gas furnace/gas fireplace repairman) Does the burner start and light reliably?

Usually boiler systems are VERY durable. Why do you think it's due for replacement? Is it gas or oil fired? Old gravity vented boilers have efficiency limitations but replacing the old boiler with a more eficient, condensing gas boiler is typically an expensive proposition ---more than the $9,000 you mention, I would normally expect.

Your idea of keeping the existing boiler and using the stove as a major source of heat is reasonable, in my view. Updating the insulation to be able to live with the fireplace is a great idea, and there are probably other updates that would be well worth making that would improve your situation the same way.

So pursuing other efficiency improvements sounds like an excellent thing to consider to me! Probably much better than replacing the boiler or the stove, although you haven't posted enough information to really make that judgment yet!

 

[Eastwind]

Hi Wooduser,
You are right, I really am unfamiliar with gas stoves. This is the first I have owned. I did locate the model name— posted above— the “Sapphire” looks like max BTU is 30,000.
I assume the stove is older based on my knowledge of the previous owners of the house.
Our home did just get recently insulated and air sealed.
We also had the stove fully serviced, cleaned, and the log set salvaged. It has a pilot that is on all the time in the winter and it’s hooked up to a manual thermostat. I assume It’s working as well as it can currently.
I guess I was curious about:
Is this stove was designed to be a primary heat source, and run near constantly?
Are newer gas stoves better at moving heat around (I don’t think this has a blower)?
Is another, larger stove likely to be a better fit for our whole house?
The current oil/steam boiler system is indeed failing. It is over 30 years old and can’t run consistently I’ve been told “it’s collapsing on the inside”. It runs for a while then shuts itself off. We have been told we need to replace and 9,000 was the estimate given for an efficient replacement.
Aside from the high cost, I also want to avoid investing in an oil system because of the fuel cost.
I was thinking that if I can sell the Quadra fire we can maybe make ourselves more comfortable this winter for a far less $$.

 

[wooduser]

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/Sapphire-Gas-Stove.aspx?page=Specifications)




NOT INTENDED FOR USE AS A PRIMARY HEAT SOURCE. This appliance is tested and approved as either supplemental room heat or as a decorative appliance. It should not be factored as primary heat in residential heating calculations.



I have seen this advice from manufacturers routinely ignored by users for years and decades, but that's the advice of the manufacturer.

The gas input to this stove, therefore it's heat output, is pretty low. So it's not putting out a lot of heat, which can actually be an advantage for a decorative appliance since it can be used when a real heating appliance would provide too much heat to use it.

I would copy the installation and operating manuals at this website and keep them available for your use and study. They can be very valuable even to repairmen who can benefit from seeing the specifications of the manufacturer.

I'm not big on electric fans on gas stoves. They tend to be noisy and not particularly effective. And remember all a fan can do is move around the limited heat this stove will produce.

You can find larger stoves and gas heaters designed to heat homes. They often have BTUS inputs several times what this small stove does, so they'd be much better heating appliances. And if you buy one designed as a heating appliance, it will be built in a more rugged and durable way, designed better for that purpose.

As far as the boiler goes, you could replace that with a gas fired condensing boiler that would have efficiencies in the neighborhood of 90% or so.

And looking at more insulation in floors, walls and ceiling is an excellent idea. I'd take a very serious look at that before doing almost anything else, including replacing the stove.

Reducing heat losses by increasing insulation makes any heat you have more effective and less costly, because the heat produced is lost at a smaller rate.

 

[Eastwind]

Thanks!
As mentioned above, we did have the entire house insulated and air sealed.
It sounds like we should invest in a better gas stove designed for primary heat source.
In our town there is a moratorium on adding natural gas, so we can only change existing appliances, we cannot add anything new, such as switching from oil boiler to gas.
Do you know of any large, primary heat models that efficient and good value?
So far I have seen the Lopi Greenfield and also have heard of Jotul. Otherwise I just don’t know where to start and have found online research a little difficult.

(broken link removed to http://www.quadrafire.com/Products/Sapphire-Gas-Stove.aspx?page=Specifications)




NOT INTENDED FOR USE AS A PRIMARY HEAT SOURCE. This appliance is tested and approved as either supplemental room heat or as a decorative appliance. It should not be factored as primary heat in residential heating calculations.



I have seen this advice from manufacturers routinely ignored by users for years and decades, but that's the advice of the manufacturer.

The gas input to this stove, therefore it's heat output, is pretty low. So it's not putting out a lot of heat, which can actually be an advantage for a decorative appliance since it can be used when a real heating appliance would provide too much heat to use it.

I would copy the installation and operating manuals at this website and keep them available for your use and study. They can be very valuable even to repairmen who can benefit from seeing the specifications of the manufacturer.

I'm not big on electric fans on gas stoves. They tend to be noisy and not particularly effective. And remember all a fan can do is move around the limited heat this stove will produce.

You can find larger stoves and gas heaters designed to heat homes. They often have BTUS inputs several times what this small stove does, so they'd be much better heating appliances. And if you buy one designed as a heating appliance, it will be built in a more rugged and durable way, designed better for that purpose.

As far as the boiler goes, you could replace that with a gas fired condensing boiler that would have efficiencies in the neighborhood of 90% or so.

And looking at more insulation in floors, walls and ceiling is an excellent idea. I'd take a very serious look at that before doing almost anything else, including replacing the stove.

Reducing heat losses by increasing insulation makes any heat you have more effective and less costly, because the heat produced is lost at a smaller rate.

 

[wooduser]

As a repairman, I usually saw the latest equipment about twenty years AFTER it was installed -----and I've been retired eleven years now!st Googling "Direct Vent Gas heater gets:

http://pro.heatnglo.com/Design-and-Spec/Product-Drawings-and-Models/Product-Details.aspx?pid={590C6C78-5A8F-4F9D-B66E-28FFEF0DB454}&a=2.40703266.1630772431.1542661424-1703401976.1538787976


I used to like Williams Wall furnaces. They took up a minimum of floor space, were robust and solid heating appliances. The fan was quite effective in circulating air around the room and breaking up stratified levels of warm and cold air.

You should get some good advice on the BTU input you need to effectively heat the space you have.

 

[k0wtz]

bob Danksy I used to stay in old motels that had the wall furnace they would run you out if you wanted to crank it up. I am sure the ones i saw were b-vent furnaces not real efficient but they would pour out the heat. No fans they were called gravity furnaces sort of a convection type heater. I agree with you on the gas stove fans being noisey they sure are but mine does put out a lot of heat so what then?

In his situation i would consider maybe 2 of these units and he would have plenty of heat or he could go 2 90% efficient furnaces with a/c if he needs it.

whatever he buys is going to cost him to buy and operate!

 

[k0wtz]

Hi Wooduser,
You are right, I really am unfamiliar with gas stoves. This is the first I have owned. I did locate the model name— posted above— the “Sapphire” looks like max BTU is 30,000.
I assume the stove is older based on my knowledge of the previous owners of the house.
Our home did just get recently insulated and air sealed.
We also had the stove fully serviced, cleaned, and the log set salvaged. It has a pilot that is on all the time in the winter and it’s hooked up to a manual thermostat. I assume It’s working as well as it can currently.
I guess I was curious about:
Is this stove was designed to be a primary heat source, and run near constantly?
Are newer gas stoves better at moving heat around (I don’t think this has a blower)?
Is another, larger stove likely to be a better fit for our whole house?
The current oil/steam boiler system is indeed failing. It is over 30 years old and can’t run consistently I’ve been told “it’s collapsing on the inside”. It runs for a while then shuts itself off. We have been told we need to replace and 9,000 was the estimate given for an efficient replacement.
Aside from the high cost, I also want to avoid investing in an oil system because of the fuel cost.
I was thinking that if I can sell the Quadra fire we can maybe make ourselves more comfortable this winter for a far less $$.

eastwind I have a question for you what are the steps in making an old house sealed up? bob

 

[wooduser]

eastwind I have a question for you what are the steps in making an old house sealed up? bob

Williams wall furnaces were usually either B vent vented out the roof or direct vented right out the back of the furnace.

They usually had a fan that sucked in air at the top of the furnace and blew it out at the floor level.

There major weakness was having no filter, so they could have a lot of dust accumulated in them.

Good heating appliances at the time,. I lived with one in a small apartment for four years, and did repairs on many of them over a couple of decades.

Looks like they are still in business:

https://www.google.com/search?q=wil...ru7OveAhUSK30KHbwWDSgQsxgILQ&biw=1366&bih=577

 

[k0wtz]

The wall ones I saw vented three the top and were gravity units..

 

[wooduser]

eastwind I have a question for you what are the steps in making an old house sealed up? bob

In general, sealing up air leaks in doors, windows, dryer vents and such is the easiest, cheapest and most effective way to reduce heat losses.

Adding attic insulation is next, followed by side wall and floor insulation over crawl spaces.


Replace windows last unless they are leaky and can't be repaired. In general, windows are most expensive per square foot to reduce heat losses and improvements tend to be relatively modest compared to the other improvements I mentioned.

Of course many people go for replacing windows like a duck on a june bug, because that gives them something to talk about to friends, neighbors and relatives!


Seattle Pioneer

 

[k0wtz]

I have never had the misfortune to live in one of those old house it must be rough if things havent been kept up with!!

 

[wooduser]

I've lived in one of those old houses for a third of a century, and perhaps have 5-10 years before I sell out.


My plan is to do the updating to make the house an attractive buy when I sell it, so all the improvements will be ***new*** rather than 10-20 years old or whatever.

Meantime, I have no interest in those "upgrades" for myself. The money most people would spend on such consumption has gone into stock market investments, which have increased in value sharply rather than declined in value as most home improvements do over time.

I retired eleven years ago, at age 57. After living on my assets for ten years, with zero earned income, I calculated that my net worth had INCREASED by 50% since I retired.

 

[Mainely Saws]

Eastwind,
I have an old ,partially insulated home of about 1000 sq ft. that I heat with LP . I had an old oil fired hot water boiler along with radiators that was going to be very expensive to replace . After heating with wood for many years I switched to an Lopi Berkshire LP gas stove with standing pilot and a Rinnai LP direct vent heater with built in thermostat. Either unit by itself could heat the space alone .This combo has worked well for me. The Rinnai is an efficient , dependable heater but very plain looking and requires electricity . The Lopi Berkshire has a very nice looking flame ,has a wall thermostat ,heats well with either the built in blower or the ceiling fan, and also has a standing pilot should the power go out . The space being heated is fairly open and the heaters are at opposite ends of the living space . The Lopi was purchased used , the Rinnai was purchased new from a dealer who installed both units . Total for everything was about $3500................ Insulation is an on going project .......