**Best Insert for (ICF) Large Ranch - what would you buy!?

[BsFire]

Hi all,

First of all - AWESOME FORUM! I've been reading through for weeks and have gathered a TON of great info. Sorry - I tried to keep this short, but there's a lot to factor.

Here's what we've got:

Moved into a LARGE ranch (pushing 5,000 sq ft) this past fall. First floor is 2,800. We have propane heat and a propane water heater (not sure how much it uses?). The house is built and insulated really well - and I mean REALLY well. It was built using insulated concrete forms (ICF) in 1987. From the outside in, it's constructed of 2" of insulation, 10" of concrete, then 2" of insulation and finally, drywall. It's a wide open floor plan (great room, dining room, kitchen, and 3 bedrooms on first floor. High ceilings and I would say we get decent airflow. Lots of returns and ceiling fans in each bedroom and great room. There's an open staircase leading to the basement - which is fully finished and also wide open. Main floor and basement each have a fireplace on the outside wall, with the main floor fireplace directly on top of the basement's. I've burnt wood on the main floor - but obviously only for ambiance (I love burning fires). The one in the basement was built with the intent of installing an insert. It's only stone, no fire block and it has never been used. There's either a 10" or 12" tile flue going straight up and out.

Our goal is to reduce our propane bill, not necessarily heat the entire house with wood. I'd love to cut the bill in half if not more. We do have access to a ton of wood. I just need to cut and split - which I actually enjoy. Originally, my plan was to put the biggest/baddest wood burner in the basement since the fireplace is setup for an insert, making it an easy install. After reading through a ton of posts on here about others having problems heating from the basement in a ranch, I think the best thing to do is put the insert on the main floor. That's where we are 80% of the time.

I've attached a pics below of each fireplace (arched one is the main floor). I know floor plans help. I can draw some up and post if that helps. Just let me know.

I had local dealer come out yesterday. He suggested the Buck Model 94. However, I can't find much info on the 94.

Questions:

What would buy - and why?

Would you suggest Buck? Anyone like the 94? (Read some good things about the 91).

Would anyone suggest pellet instead of wood (considering my situation)?

Anyone suggest putting the insert in basement vs the main floor?

Any other info and/or opinions are definitely appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[mellow]

Here is the skinny on the 94 vs 91, it comes down to user error. The dealer will get more calls about the 91 (catalytic) not burning green wood as well as the 94 (not catalytic) so they will push the stove that results in fewer calls.

The 91 whoops the 94 hands down in burn times, the 94 has a higher output due to design but will not burn as long as the 91. For your super insulated install I would go with a catalytic stove that you can burn at lower btu output so you do not run yourself out of the house.

Negatives for this will be you will have to use truly dry wood, not buying from some landscaper that is selling "seasoned" wood. This will involve work on your end of cutting and stacking oak for 2-3 years ahead and soft woods for less time.

I would install the stove in the room you spend the most time in, but since your house is super insulated the basement install might work better since the heat in theory should travel to the upstairs very well. It will also give you a taller chimney and better draft.

I would also look at installing a rear vent freestanding catalytic stove in the basement, woodstock is a prefered rear vent stove. It also looks like you have a door to the outside in the basement which would mean easy access to bringing wood in (do you want that mess upstairs?).

As for pellet vs wood if you have access to wood and have the yard space to stack it I vote for that.

 

[velvetfoot]

I personally would say you'd want an efficient wood burner wherever you burn wood. In my opinion, it's too bad you didn't build in an efficient wood burner on the main floor from the get go. You might not find an insert that fits.

 

[Grisu]

Since you already spent one winter in the house, how much propane did you use during a cold month like January or February? That will help in determining how big of an insert you need. How much area do you have in the first floor and above?

Any of that wood already split and stacked? You have more than 6 months to figure out the right insert but it will do naught without dry wood.

Do you know the inside dimensions of your chimney? Can you fit an 8" liner down there? How tall is it? Some measurement of the fireplace(s) would be helpful to see which insert would fit.

 

[BsFire]

Here is the skinny on the 94 vs 91, it comes down to user error. The dealer will get more calls about the 91 (catalytic) not burning green wood as well as the 94 (not catalytic) so they will push the stove that results in fewer calls.

The 91 whoops the 94 hands down in burn times, the 94 has a higher output due to design but will not burn as long as the 91. For your super insulated install I would go with a catalytic stove that you can burn at lower btu output so you do not run yourself out of the house.

Negatives for this will be you will have to use truly dry wood, not buying from some landscaper that is selling "seasoned" wood. This will involve work on your end of cutting and stacking oak for 2-3 years ahead and soft woods for less time.

I would install the stove in the room you spend the most time in, but since your house is super insulated the basement install might work better since the heat in theory should travel to the upstairs very well. It will also give you a taller chimney and better draft.

I would also look at installing a rear vent freestanding catalytic stove in the basement, woodstock is a prefered rear vent stove. It also looks like you have a door to the outside in the basement which would mean easy access to bringing wood in (do you want that mess upstairs?).

As for pellet vs wood if you have access to wood and have the yard space to stack it I vote for that.

Here is the skinny on the 94 vs 91, it comes down to user error. The dealer will get more calls about the 91 (catalytic) not burning green wood as well as the 94 (not catalytic) so they will push the stove that results in fewer calls.

The 91 whoops the 94 hands down in burn times, the 94 has a higher output due to design but will not burn as long as the 91. For your super insulated install I would go with a catalytic stove that you can burn at lower btu output so you do not run yourself out of the house.

Negatives for this will be you will have to use truly dry wood, not buying from some landscaper that is selling "seasoned" wood. This will involve work on your end of cutting and stacking oak for 2-3 years ahead and soft woods for less time.

I would install the stove in the room you spend the most time in, but since your house is super insulated the basement install might work better since the heat in theory should travel to the upstairs very well. It will also give you a taller chimney and better draft.

I would also look at installing a rear vent freestanding catalytic stove in the basement, woodstock is a prefered rear vent stove. It also looks like you have a door to the outside in the basement which would mean easy access to bringing wood in (do you want that mess upstairs?).

As for pellet vs wood if you have access to wood and have the yard space to stack it I vote for that.

Thanks mellow! I def don't want it to get so hot that we can't even be in the room - so great point on the 94 vs 91. We kept our thermostat on 66 pretty much all winter. It holds heat very well. It was a little chilly though - and of course the Mrs wants it o be really warm. Not looking for really HOT burns 24/7 - just something to warm the main level to (say) 70 degrees. Having the option to really warm it up will be nice though.

The dealer said that even with the insulation, putting one in the basement may not heat the upstairs all that well because the basement ceiling is fully finished with drywall/insullation. The staircase is directly across from the fireplace. It's wide open "double staircase" with a landing and probably a 15' ceiling. Very good point on having to deal with wood upstairs! I would MUCH rather burn in the basement and that's a HUGE reason. Dealing with the wood on the main level is a pain and makes a mess. I just don't want to spend thousands and then have the main level not getting warm.

I'll have to look into the rear vent freestanding catalytic stoves. I'm not familiar. I have space to stack wood and my neighbor actually cuts and sells. He has stacks and stacks, so maybe I could buy from him until I have a cut/split/stack/season process going.

 

[BsFire]

I personally would say you'd want an efficient wood burner wherever you burn wood. In my opinion, it's too bad you didn't build in an efficient wood burner on the main floor from the get go. You might not find an insert that fits.

We didn't build the house - otherwise I would have

The dealer measured. Both fireplaces are large enough for the 94. The one in the basement will fit everything I've looked it. I measured bc my plans was to put one down there originally.

 

[mellow]

First wood burning tool you purchase should be a Moisture meter, you can pick one up cheap at harbor freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67145.html

This will give you a good idea how "seasoned" that neighbors wood really is, you split a piece in half and measure the center of the inside of the split piece, it should be in the lower 20's for it to burn good in a catalytic stove.

 

[BsFire]

Since you already spent one winter in the house, how much propane did you use during a cold month like January or February? That will help in determining how big of an insert you need. How much area do you have in the first floor and above?

Any of that wood already split and stacked? You have more than 6 months to figure out the right insert but it will do naught without dry wood.

Do you know the inside dimensions of your chimney? Can you fit an 8" liner down there? How tall is it? Some measurement of the fireplace(s) would be helpful to see which insert would fit.

I'd have to check the propane numbers - can look tonight. The first floor is 2,800 sq ft. Basement is about the same.

I have some wood split and stacked, but not nearly enough. I can get plenty from my neighbor.

An 8" liner will def fit in the basement. I can see straight up. It's an unused clay flue. I believe it's 12" (at least 10") but would need to measure to know for sure. The dealer said the main level would fit an 8" - which is what the 94 calls for. Main level is probably 15' (again I can measure tonight). Basement is obviously taller.

My fireplace measurements:

Main floor (arched):
Back Width: 30.5"
Depth: 24"
Front Width" 36"
Height" 27.5" (at top of arch)

Basement:
Back Width: 34.5"
Depth: 24"
Front Width" 34.5"
Height" 33.75"

Thanks for the quick replies!! Keep 'em coming!

 

[BsFire]

First wood burning tool you purchase should be a Moisture meter, you can pick one up cheap at harbor freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67145.html

This will give you a good idea how "seasoned" that neighbors wood really is, you split a piece in half and measure the center of the inside of the split piece, it should be in the lower 20's for it to burn good in a catalytic stove.

On it! Thanks!

 

[BsFire]

Here's a few more pics to help show basement and stairs setup.

Think we'd get enough heat on the main level with an insert in the basement?

 

[velvetfoot]

Both fireplaces are large enough for the 94.

I guess pictures can be deceiving!
The common saying around here seems to be to go for biggest firebox you can fit in there and that you can always build a smaller fire. I would suggest tp get one that allows front to back loading, which both Bucks do to 22"! So I would say put one of those bad boys in each fireplace.
I've never had a cat. stove, just the kind with secondaries. My negative impressions of cat stoves, totally based on what I've read here: the glass is always black, they're finicky to start, the cat requires periodic replacement. Positives already mentioned above. Maybe I secretly wished I had a cat. stove. Maybe.

 

[jeff_t]

I think a Progress Hybrid would look pretty spiffy on either one of those hearths.

 

[mellow]

I think you will find the basement would get a flat screen installed on the wall and everyone would migrate to down there if you installed a stove in the basement.

 

[BsFire]

Good reasons for installing in basement:
1) I can stack wood right outside the door (instead of carrying through the house if it's on the main level - can be a pain).
2) Much easier setup. The main level will need the damper knocked out and a few bricks removed. With (say a 91) a small portion of the hearth will need to be chipped away also, due to the arched shape.
3) From the basement, the flue would be taller which results in better draft (from what I read).

Good reasons for installing on main level:
1) Pretty much a given we'll heat the main level
2) It would be nice for viewing

If you can think of anything else to add, please do. I'm here for all the input I can get!

If I knew for sure putting one in the basement would heat the main level this would be a much easier decision.

So... if I were to put the BIGGEST BADDEST wood burning insert in the basement, would it heat the main level?
What is the BIGGEST BADDEST wood insert?

Decisions decisions! I'll keep researching I guess.

I'll check on the exact propane usage tonight and post the numbers.

 

[BsFire]

I would also look at installing a rear vent freestanding catalytic stove in the basement, woodstock is a prefered rear vent stove. It also looks like you have a door to the outside in the basement which would mean easy access to bringing wood in (do you want that mess upstairs?).

Sorry - still learning. The Woodstock Progress Hybrid looks pretty sweet!

 

[mellow]

The buck 91 and the Kuma Sequoia are your two biggest INSERTS that require 8" liners, and they should be insulated so it might be a tight fit at 10".

If you wanted more bang for your buck I would look putting a Freestanding rear vent in front of the fireplace, you might need to put a hearth pad down in front but I could see a Woodstock stove fitting in nicely, and then you would only have to use a 6" insulated liner.

If done correctly with fusible link dampers you could put registers in the ceiling of the basement that will allow heat up stairs. Or do like I did and put in a fan to blow cold air from upstairs to the basement so it forms a thermal loop with the hot air going up the stairs to replace the cold air.

 

[velvetfoot]

Why waste wood? Put an insert in each.

 

[BsFire]

Why waste wood? Put an insert in each.

Ha! Maybe if I lived in Canada!

 

[Grisu]

What's the chimney height for the upper fireplace? Most models will need at least 15 ft for proper draft. In your case, you may have an additional problem as your house is probably rather airtight. Do any of the fireplaces have an ash dump through which outside air could be supplied? Or would you be ok with drilling a hole in the back of the fireplace for that?

The fireplace in the basement may work or it may not. I don't think anyone can tell for sure by just looking at pictures. What may work against you is actually the tightly sealed home you have. Quite a few older homes lose warm air through the attic which pulls air up from the basement. A stove in the basement may work then. In your case, you may need to find a way to get the colder air from the upper level back into the basement to establish a convective loop.

Btw. Your basement fireplace is large enough that quite a few stoves would fit in there which may look better and may reduce the need for a blower. Without checking, I think the Pacific Energy Summit/T6 should fit or the Jotul F55.

 

[BsFire]

Since you already spent one winter in the house, how much propane did you use during a cold month like January or February? That will help in determining how big of an insert you need.

Here's our Propane usage/bill info:

Nov. 11: 89 gallons
Dec. 13: 111 gallons
Jan. 17: 202 gallons
Feb. 25: 225 gallons

all @ $2.59 a gallon

 

[BsFire]

What's the chimney height for the upper fireplace? Most models will need at least 15 ft for proper draft. In your case, you may have an additional problem as your house is probably rather airtight. Do any of the fireplaces have an ash dump through which outside air could be supplied? Or would you be ok with drilling a hole in the back of the fireplace for that?

The fireplace in the basement may work or it may not. I don't think anyone can tell for sure by just looking at pictures. What may work against you is actually the tightly sealed home you have. Quite a few older homes lose warm air through the attic which pulls air up from the basement. A stove in the basement may work then. In your case, you may need to find a way to get the colder air from the upper level back into the basement to establish a convective loop.

Btw. Your basement fireplace is large enough that quite a few stoves would fit in there which may look better and may reduce the need for a blower. Without checking, I think the Pacific Energy Summit/T6 should fit or the Jotul F55.

The main level chimney height is 15'. It does have an ash dump and a small sliding vent on the back side.

I spent some time in the basement last night. I think a free standing placed in the basement hearth might be the way to go. It's going to be so much easier to load downstairs and would look awesome! I will need to check on clearance though.

 

[Grisu]

That looks like roughly 200 gl of propane per month. If your furnace is 80% efficient, you needed 15 mBTU per month. (1 gl propane = 91,000 BTU) That's roughly one cord of average hardwood per month which comes up to maybe 4 cords per winter. Assuming that it will be unlikely you heat the entire home from one location, I would go for a mid-size stove with a firebox of 2 to 2.5 cu ft or a catalytic stove for a lower, more even heat output. There are plenty of options available but height will be an issue for the downstairs fireplace. What kind of design do you have in mind?

Some options (but check dimensions especially the height):
Enviro 1700 series
Pacific Energy Super or T5
Jotul F45
Regency F2400
Quadrafire Explorer 2
Woodstock Fireview or Progress Hybrid if you want to go catalytic but you will need enough hearth depth to open their side-loading doors. The Ideal Steel would be a frontloader but a lot of stove for you. They are working on a medium-sized hybrid but that may not be out by next winter. The BlazeKings are a bit too tall I think.

I spent some time in the basement last night. I think a free standing placed in the basement hearth might be the way to go. It's going to be so much easier to load downstairs and would look awesome! I will need to check on clearance though.

Does the downstairs fireplace have a masonry flue? If there is nothing combustible hiding behind the brick you don't need to worry about clearances.

 

[BsFire]

That looks like roughly 200 gl of propane per month. If your furnace is 80% efficient, you needed 15 mBTU per month. (1 gl propane = 91,000 BTU) That's roughly one cord of average hardwood per month which comes up to maybe 4 cords per winter. Assuming that it will be unlikely you heat the entire home from one location, I would go for a mid-size stove with a firebox of 2 to 2.5 cu ft or a catalytic stove for a lower, more even heat output. There are plenty of options available but height will be an issue for the downstairs fireplace. What kind of design do you have in mind?
Some options (but check dimensions especially the height):
Enviro 1700 series
Pacific Energy Super or T5
Jotul F45
Regency F2400
Quadrafire Explorer 2
Woodstock Fireview or Progress Hybrid if you want to go catalytic but you will need enough hearth depth to open their side-loading doors. The Ideal Steel would be a frontloader but a lot of stove for you. They are working on a medium-sized hybrid but that may not be out by next winter. The BlazeKings are a bit too tall I think.

Great explanation Grisu - thank you!

I understand the math for the stove size, but I have to ask... Would there be a better chance of heating the main level, from the basement, if we went with a larger firebox? Or do you think that would that just overheat the basement?

As far as design... I'm not looking for anything too contemporary. Eventually I'd like to refinish the bar in the basement - going for an "English Pub" feel, so I'd just want something to compliment. I'll take a look at all of those you listed!

 

[mellow]

If you want something to compliment the bar you can get the Ideal Steel with custom made graphics, maybe a pint glass full of Guinness? Just a thought not saying it is the best stove for your setup.

http://www.woodstove.com/geared-2u-design-book

 

[BsFire]

Does the downstairs fireplace have a masonry flue? If there is nothing combustible hiding behind the brick you don't need to worry about clearances.

The downstairs has a clay flue and there's nothing combustible behind the brick. Do stoves give off more radiant heat with better clearance? Basically, would it heat just as well if it's pushed all the way back into the hearth, with only a few inches on each side vs having it out further "letting it breathe"?