BEV Pickup Trucks

[KBCraig]

I love technology and new developments, but reality doesn't always match up with expectations and promises.

If you like EVs, you should follow Rich Rebuilds.

Here was his experience driving a Rivian from Newark to Florida, desperately hunting charging stations, only to find that more than one was out of service.

 

[woodgeek]

I love technology and new developments, but reality doesn't always match up with expectations and promises.

If you like EVs, you should follow Rich Rebuilds.

Here was his experience driving a Rivian from Newark to Florida, desperately hunting charging stations, only to find that more than one was out of service.

There are a bunch of folks writing newspaper articles and making YouTube videos these days who are simply using the wrong apps. Oddly, the many thousands of people EV roadtripping all over the US every day without any drama at all... they don't get any articles or videos.

This guy 'couldn't find the ultrafast chargers' for his Rivian. Did he try downloading the EA app, that shows such chargers every 100 miles or so on all the major interstates all over the NorthEast? How about the ABRP app that shows the same thing? When I drive through those I see tons of other EVs, including Rivians.

Plugshare was a cash poor volunteer effort for many years, and was recently bought by EVGo, the competitor to the largest DCFC network. The result has been that PlugShare has started not showing EA stations (sometimes), despite them being the fastest and biggest and most numerous out there. After (experienced) user complaints, and a wave of videos like this one, they have started showing them again.

Newb's trying to roadtrip with Plugshare routinely find that dealership DCFCs (most of which were installed 5+ years ago) either don't work anymore, or are behind locked gates during off hours.

I have been roadtripping EVs since 2015, and I have NEVER considered using a dealership DCFC. I also avoid low power DCFCs, which is any network other than EA or EVGo (in the NorthEast). Many dealerships are EV hostile, and got single low power DCFCs on their own dime bc the maker compelled them to. And they have no interest in randos using it.

Plugshare is still useful, but you can't just look at the map and say 'Look! there is a DCFC there... ' you need to click the station and then if you see that no one has charged there since 2018, um, just ignore it.

If this sounds too hard for you... just use ABRP to route your trip efficiently through big stations (with multiple high power stalls) in seconds. If its the first time you are taking that trip... then check PlugShare (or the network app) to verify that the stations are working.

I know this sounds hard to believe.... that this car savvy YouTuber or a write for the NYT or WSJ was **just using the wrong app**, but it is literally that stupid. This content generates tons of clicks, and hundreds of users happily charging at your local 300 kW DCFC does not. Its a man bites dog story... rich dude buy $100k and runs out of charge!

Ignore the noise. Or better, in each case you see this, plug the route into ABRP yourself, and see what it says. It will find you a route with a bunch of large stations that will get you to the destination far quicker than the YouTuber or journalist. In fact, when these mass media BS things appear, often EV owners will take the route the next week in the same vehicle, without any trouble, and make a YouTube video of their own about it. That no one will ever watch.

ETA: This guy also drove down the DELMARVA peninsula. Which has almost no population, only dinky little roads, and yes, only one DCFC. I don't know anyone who drives from the NorthEast to the SouthEast down Delmarva. They take I-95! Which has 150/300 kW stations evert 60-80 miles the whole way! Sheesh.

 

[EbS-P]

There are a bunch of folks writing newspaper articles and making YouTube videos these days who are simply using the wrong apps. Oddly, the many thousands of people EV roadtripping all over the US every day without any drama at all... they don't get any articles or videos.

This guy 'couldn't find the ultrafast chargers' for his Rivian. Did he try downloading the EA app, that shows such chargers every 100 miles or so on all the major interstates all over the NorthEast? How about the ABRP app that shows the same thing? When I drive through those I see tons of other EVs, including Rivians.

Plugshare was a cash poor volunteer effort for many years, and was recently bought by EVGo, the competitor to the largest DCFC network. The result has been that PlugShare has started not showing EA stations (sometimes), despite them being the fastest and biggest and most numerous out there. After (experienced) user complaints, and a wave of videos like this one, they have started showing them again.

Newb's trying to roadtrip with Plugshare routinely find that dealership DCFCs (most of which were installed 5+ years ago) either don't work anymore, or are behind locked gates during off hours.

I have been roadtripping EVs since 2015, and I have NEVER considered using a dealership DCFC. I also avoid low power DCFCs, which is any network other than EA or EVGo (in the NorthEast). Many dealerships are EV hostile, and got single low power DCFCs on their own dime bc the maker compelled them to. And they have no interest in randos using it.

Plugshare is still useful, but you can't just look at the map and say 'Look! there is a DCFC there... ' you need to click the station and then if you see that no one has charged there since 2018, um, just ignore it.

If this sounds too hard for you... just use ABRP to route your trip efficiently through big stations (with multiple high power stalls) in seconds. If its the first time you are taking that trip... then check PlugShare (or the network app) to verify that the stations are working.

I know this sounds hard to believe.... that this car savvy YouTuber or a write for the NYT or WSJ was **just using the wrong app**, but it is literally that stupid. This content generates tons of clicks, and hundreds of users happily charging at your local 300 kW DCFC does not. Its a man bites dog story... rich dude buy $100k and runs out of charge!

Ignore the noise. Or better, in each case you see this, plug the route into ABRP yourself, and see what it says. It will find you a route with a bunch of large stations that will get you to the destination far quicker than the YouTuber or journalist. In fact, when these mass media BS things appear, often EV owners will take the route the next week in the same vehicle, without any trouble, and make a YouTube video of their own about it. That no one will ever watch.

ETA: This guy also drove down the DELMARVA peninsula. Which has almost no population, only dinky little roads, and yes, only one DCFC. I don't know anyone who drives from the NorthEast to the SouthEast down Delmarva. They take I-95! Which has 150/300 kW stations evert 60-80 miles the whole way! Sheesh.

Look he’s trying to turn a profit from YouTube. Anyone with more than 1 million subs knows how to work the algorithms. I’m guessing all this drama was probably intentional. The Rivian was probably a choice based on algorithms too.

 

[Shank]

Being completely uninformed, on a road trip for an average electric vehicle, how long does it take to recharge at a station? Obviously many variables here, but just looking for a ballpark.

 

[woodgeek]

Being completely uninformed, on a road trip for an average electric vehicle, how long does it take to recharge at a station? Obviously many variables here, but just looking for a ballpark.

The cheapest/slowest would be my Bolt EV, which can add 100 miles of range in about 35-40 minutes (best case), and has a starting range of about 220 miles at high HW speeds. So if you are going <200 miles, no charging time. If you are going 300 miles, 40 minutes. If 400 miles, two 40 minute stops. So, for shorter trips no bigs, but for a 600 mile trip (say 10 hours driving time) I am stopped 4 times for at least 2.5 hours.

For a more expensive EV (Tesla or Non-Tesla) they fast charge 2-3X faster, so that the stop times would be more like 15 minutes. And IMO (4) 15 minute stops in a 11 hour (total) 600 mile drive is not a big deal.

In below freezing temps, range drops by a third, so make the total charging time 50% higher.

 

[Shank]

The cheapest/slowest would be my Bolt EV, which can add 100 miles of range in about 35-40 minutes (best case), and has a starting range of about 220 miles at high HW speeds. So if you are going <200 miles, no charging time. If you are going 300 miles, 40 minutes. If 400 miles, two 40 minute stops. So, for shorter trips no bigs, but for a 600 mile trip (say 10 hours driving time) I am stopped 4 times for at least 2.5 hours.

For a more expensive EV (Tesla or Non-Tesla) they fast charge 2-3X faster, so that the stop times would be more like 15 minutes. And IMO (4) 15 minute stops in a 11 hour (total) 600 mile drive is not a big deal.

In below freezing temps, range drops by a third, so make the total charging time 50% higher.

Thank you for that. At some point in the somewhat near future I will have to replace a commuter car and may consider going the EV route.

 

[EbS-P]

Thank you for that. At some point in the somewhat near future I will have to replace a commuter car and may consider going the EV route.

2024 will be very different than 2023 as far as options go. I don’t see a lot of new models with wide spread availability in 2023. The bolt or (and I will take some flack for this due to it’s slow charging) a used Leaf would be at the top of my list

 

[EbS-P]

He said it. Not me!

Elon Musk hits back at Joe Biden: Or you can just buy a Tesla

Elon Musk doesn't miss an opportunity to take a pop at the President of the United States, Joe Biden, doing so every time he alludes to the electrification of the American...

amp.marca.com

 

[woodgeek]

He said it. Not me!

Elon Musk hits back at Joe Biden: Or you can just buy a Tesla

Elon Musk doesn't miss an opportunity to take a pop at the President of the United States, Joe Biden, doing so every time he alludes to the electrification of the American...

amp.marca.com

Given the fact that the IRA will restore the $7500 rebate to many Tesla vehicles, combined with Elon's current popularity trajectory... Joe might sell more Teslas in 2023 than Elon does.

 

[KBCraig]

I know this sounds hard to believe.... that this car savvy YouTuber or a write for the NYT or WSJ was **just using the wrong app**, but it is literally that stupid.

And that (other than cost) is why everyday drivers still reject EVs.

Other than Death Valley, you can drive anywhere in America with ICE power, 24/7, and never have to plan fuel stops while on major highways.

Even in podunk backwaters or Delmarva back roads, you can find gasoline and pay at the pump around the clock. You don't have to go off-route for fuel, you don't have to hunt for a compatible gas pump, and they all flow at about the same rate.

300 miles of range followed by a 10 minute fuel break at any major exit, and you're back on the road.

I'm NOT anti-EV. I'm very impressed with the technology. Until some "newb" can drive cross country in one as easily as they do with ICE, it's not ready for prime time.

 

[woodgeek]

And that (other than cost) is why everyday drivers still reject EVs.

Other than Death Valley, you can drive anywhere in America with ICE power, 24/7, and never have to plan fuel stops while on major highways.

Even in podunk backwaters or Delmarva back roads, you can find gasoline and pay at the pump around the clock. You don't have to go off-route for fuel, you don't have to hunt for a compatible gas pump, and they all flow at about the same rate.

300 miles of range followed by a 10 minute fuel break at any major exit, and you're back on the road.

I'm NOT anti-EV. I'm very impressed with the technology. Until some "newb" can drive cross country in one as easily as they do with ICE, it's not ready for prime time.

The newb just has to use an app that is about as hard to use as the apps on your smart TV when you want to find a movie to watch. Really. 2022 is the year of folks making clickbait videos and stories of how impossible it is to charge an EV. Doesn't mean that is reality. There are close to a million BEVs on American roads... and how many thousands of them are being road-tripped every day?

And I have many times been driving around away from home and had to hunt (or google) for a gas station. Near home, no. But near home, I plug in my EV in my garage.

There is a chicken and egg problem... are supposed to build a huge network and THEN sell EVs? Or sell all the EVs first? AS it is, we are rolling out both at the same time, and both are ready for prime time in most US locations.

 

[KBCraig]

The newb just has to use an app that is about as hard to use as the apps on your smart TV when you want to find a movie to watch. Really.

Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.

"You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.

 

[Ashful]

Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.

"You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.

Yes, they are too stupid. But they're also an insignificantly (and soon to be mostly dead) fraction of the population, hardly the prime demographic target of any auto maker aiming to remain solvent. Politicians must cater to this demographic, but auto makers much less so.

I've said it a half dozen times on this forum alone, but someday you're going to feel like a real idiot trying to explain to your grandkids that you thought it was easier to drive across town and stand by a gas pump for 6 minutes, rather than just plugging your car into the wall when you got home at night.

This is coming from a serious petrol-head, I presently own three Dodge Hemi's among a few other gas guzzlers, but even I can see the writing on the wall.

 

[SpaceBus]

Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.

"You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.

How many people do you really think use a flip pone in 2022? I was a flip phone user from March 2019- Nov 2022. I can tell you that even in the tiny rural fishbowl of Washington County Maine, I was among an overwhelmingly tiny minority. People would constantly forget that I had a flip phone, even though it was a crazy thing. Since my carrier was sunsetting 3G I decided it was time to rejoin the 21st century and try and push my Farm-stead on social media. There will be ICE users until the fuel becomes literally impossible to acquire. There are still people out there with functioning ICE vehicles from over 100 years ago, so I know they will continue long into the future as a niche. Anyway, back to EVs, we are in the infancy of a relatively new tech. The rise of ICE took well over 100 years to reach full maturity. EVs are far less.

 

[woodgeek]

Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.

"You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.

Huh, I see how you got there, but not what I meant when I said 'stupid'.

Using an EV is easy. Anyone who can work a smart TV can do it. And I haven't met many people who can't work Netflix. And I haven't seen a flip phone in use in I don't know how long.

I meant the content of the article is stupid. And perhaps willfully so (to get clicks).

5-10 years ago there were lots of stories in newspapers, and on different car TV shows about Tesla's running out of charge and stranding people. Ofc, none of that was based in reality. In a NYT article back then, the journalist was given a Model S for a week, and a charger at his home, and a portable 120V charger to charge it with, and he ran out of juice and got stranded.

What happened. He never plugged it in. And just drove it until it ran out. And wrote an article about how Tesla was not ready for prime time. He did that on purpose so the article would go viral.

Same for Jeremy Clarkson. Took a Tesla with 5% charge out on the track, and it was a dog and stopped before it went very far. For ratings.

Both people confessed.

Now we have the same thing about non-Tesla EVs and DCFCs. Yawn.

 

[Ashful]

I do know a half dozen people who have bought new flip phones in the last two years. But none of them are potential buyers of new cars.

 

[KBCraig]

Huh, I see how you got there, but not what I meant when I said 'stupid'.

Using an EV is easy. Anyone who can work a smart TV can do it. And I haven't met many people who can't work Netflix. And I haven't seen a flip phone in use in I don't know how long.

You and I live in different worlds.

I know people at the top end of the tech spectrum, and those who only have landlines, no computer or cell phone, and would still be watching OTA television if it was available (it's not, where I live, even for high tech cord-cutters).

I'm glad you have had great luck carefully planning your EV travels with the right app.

Your dedicated research into EV travel simply does not translate to much of the country, or the needs of everyday non-EV drivers.

There's one ChargePoint station in my town, but it's at a campground that is closed November-May. There are a couple of Tesla Destination chargers within 50 miles, and one Tesla Supercharger about 60 miles away.

None of my daily travels take me near any of those.

I'll stick with my 30mpg compact crossover, because I'm never more than 20 miles from buying gasoline.

 

[KBCraig]

How many people do you really think use a flip pone in 2022?

I know more people who have no cell phone at all, but quite a few people who only have basic feature phones, and no idea how to use them for anything other than making a call.

 

[bholler]

You and I live in different worlds.

I know people at the top end of the tech spectrum, and those who only have landlines, no computer or cell phone, and would still be watching OTA television if it was available (it's not, where I live, even for high tech cord-cutters).

I'm glad you have had great luck carefully planning your EV travels with the right app.

Your dedicated research into EV travel simply does not translate to much of the country, or the needs of everyday non-EV drivers.

There's one ChargePoint station in my town, but it's at a campground that is closed November-May. There are a couple of Tesla Destination chargers within 50 miles, and one Tesla Supercharger about 60 miles away.

None of my daily travels take me near any of those.

I'll stick with my 30mpg compact crossover, because I'm never more than 20 miles from buying gasoline.

But the thing is you won't need a charger for everyday driving. You would plug it in when you get home and have a full charge in the morning. That being said I am not ready to take the leap myself. Possibly when my wife's car needs replaced. But I mainly drive work trucks and for those there certainly is no ev option yet.

And no the people who aren't using smart phones now obviously are not going to be early adopters of EVs. They clearly are not the target market. By the time those people would be buying one there will be chargers everywhere. As someone said previously ice vehicles had exactly the same challenges in the beginning as well. And for a while they simply were not ready for the main stream. That is where EVs are now. They are a good product just not right for everyone. Yet.

 

[SpaceBus]

I know more people who have no cell phone at all, but quite a few people who only have basic feature phones, and no idea how to use them for anything other than making a call.

Your own personal experience is not indicative of the population as a whole.

85% of American adults own a smartphone and 86% of the global population owns a smartphone. I would suppose that the majority of children in the US also have smartphones, but there is limited data for that. So yeah, 15% of adults that don't own smartphones are not making a serious impact on BEV sales. I would also expect the number of smartphone users to continue increasing as folks that don't want smartphones are literally dying out. Same with BEV sales, which you can see happening right now in real time. I can't really understand how anyone can look at the sales data and not come to the conclusion that traditional ICE are dying out.

Smartphone statistics

 

[sloeffle]

If the range drops in half when towing, then these trucks are going to have a harder adoption rate for horse, rv, and boat owners.

People that use trucks what they are intended for, not folks that buy a truck just to take it to the grocery store, or to try and keep with the Joneses. I fall into the category of using a truck what it's intended for.

 

[Shank]

People that use trucks what they are intended for, not folks that buy a truck just to take it to the grocery store, or to try and keep with the Joneses. I fall into the category of using a truck what it's intended for.

Mine used to have real purpose... Now it primarily sits and is only used on trips/pulling trailers 2,000 miles or less a year anymore.

 

[Ashful]

People that use trucks what they are intended for, not folks that buy a truck just to take it to the grocery store, or to try and keep with the Joneses. I fall into the category of using a truck what it's intended for.

I hear what you're saying, and you definitely represent a good part of the truck-buying public, esp. on 3/4 ton and up models. But my truck is intended for pulling heavy loads short distances, which might represent another reasonable fraction of the overall user base. I'm pulling my tandem-axle trailer full of logs, or loaded with a tractor and loader, but rarely much more than 10 miles from home when loaded heavy. We also don't use it for long trips, preferring to take a 6-seat SUV for those.

A BET could work for this usage profile, perhaps the only real headache being that I tend to like to leave my truck outside, and preserve garage space for other toys. This makes plugs and cords decidedly less fun, especially in winter snow and freezing rain.

 

[sloeffle]

I live in pretty rural area ( it's becoming less rural by the day unfortunately ) and pretty much all of my acquittances or friends have trucks. Most of them either have 3/4 or 1 ton trucks because they have a camper or a farm. A few have 1/2 tons, but the majority are like me, they buy a truck to do truck type things. Most of them have non-farm type day jobs, none of them drive their trucks to work or use them for "getting groceries". They have all have a "beater" car that they drive to and from work to do these types of things.

I'm definitely the odd man out but based off what I see at the grocery store and via truck vs car sales. I guess I don't understand why would you drive a vehicle that's expensive to insure, gets crappy MPG, and expensive to work on as a daily commuter. Don't get me started on the trucks with 4' beds, talk about worthless vehicles. That's what cars and SUVs are for. Guess my point is, I think 80 - 90% of the people that have trucks don't really use them to do truck type stuff.

Sorry, I know I'm getting way off topic. Soap box over with.

 

[Ashful]

What will be interesting is that, knowing batteries can be heavy, what will be the weight classes and subsequent costs associated with a "1/2 ton" or "3/4 ton" pickup? My last several 1/2 ton vehicles have all been around 4600 lb. curb weight with 6400 lb. gross, but it's likely even a 1/2 ton might come in over 5k curb and 7k gross, with 3/4's and 1-ton's going up from there. I already have to buy a class-2 registration for my 1/2-ton truck, but maybe the budget-sensitive Ford Ranger crowd will be having to do so in the future.