BEV Pickup Trucks

[EbS-P]

Agreed. It's closest competition, if a market segment were to be named around them, is probably something like the Chevy Avalanche.

lol... well, yes. And if you "take out" the things causing any of the big-3 points on their quality ratings, they would look better, as well! Surely you meant something other than, "if we ignore their problems, then they don't have as many problems"?

Yeah and the Avalanche sold so well the kept making it 😉 It’s a luxury SUV with a truck bed. So the Rivian RT1, (saw one in person and was unimpressed). Maybe the Genesis brand will come come out with one?????

 

[Ashful]

Yeah and the Avalanche sold so well the kept making it 😉 It’s a luxury SUV with a truck bed. So the Rivian RT1, (saw one in person and was unimpressed). Maybe the Genesis brand will come come out with one?????

I think Tesla is going to suffer from some of the same bias that ran against the Avalanche. While both may be very practical and capable vehicles for some segment of the market, namely weekend warriors who drive the thing to work or cart around family all week, both probably suffer some bias due to their outward appearance. I have to admit, I had an immediate gut reaction against the Tesla pickup, nearly the same as I had against the Avalanche nearly 20 years ago.

The pickup truck market is driven as much (or more) by tradition and image, as true measurable practicality.

 

[blades]

well i read all this likely twice now, at this point i am looking for a replacement unit as the 2nd Escape i had was rear ended -totaled- 2nd one in 4 years, on to trucks. I had very good time in each one with only one failure in the 2016 unit at around 125k miles, fuel vapor sensor. I will not purchase another unibody unit regardless of the drive train. Kinda leaves me with the pickups, electric pricing way out of my ability- wood be nice though as my commute is about 100miles /day . right now i am driving my 03F250 6.0l diesel daily ( ouch) which has been reserved for actual truck type jobs for quite awhile. While the extended fuel milage was nice on the shoebox the inability to grab various larger items was a pain. Never been a real fan of GM ( but I have had several over the years, cars) Ran Mini vans for awhile chrysler and ford, less issues with the fords- both were ok due to family size.
At the present time GM has valve train issues which lead to sudden complete failure. Ford and GM have electronic issues with their co-opped electronic trannies, mostly electronic componet failures- seems to be a luck of the draw thing. Never been a dodge fan , units just didn't last and parts always seemed to be more expensive that the other 2 of the big 3 ( well what was the big 3). Maybe dodge has changed don't know.leaves me looking at 2019/20 F150 3.5l eco units. Side Note 155k on the 2L eco escape- tranny was starting to have what felt like clutch chatter.

 

[begreen]

The pickup truck market is driven as much (or more) by tradition and image, as true measurable practicality.

This has changed. Some still use their trucks for actual work, but many don't. In the past 20 yrs the truck has morphed into the family car with a short bed. It's a station wagon without the rear roof. Many of these boy toys will never see more than a trip to Ikea for a load. That's where I put the Tesla truck. It's more for image and bragging rights than actually carrying a load of cement blocks, gravel, plywood sheets, etc.

 

[walhondingnashua]

All trucks have a pretty high price right now, especially since what begreen is saying is true. The best "family car" me is my 4 door, full size pick up. Not a more versatile vehicle on the road IMO. Because of their price and still lack of range (with lack of range being the bigger issue), I think the private market will take a while on full EV trucks. I think the biggest market for EV trucks is commercial. The required range is known and full costs go away. I believe, after rebates, the Lightning commercial model was under $35,000. Amazon (rivian) and Walmart (Canoo) will help drive this market.

 

[Ashful]

Never been a dodge fan , units just didn't last and parts always seemed to be more expensive that the other 2 of the big 3 ( well what was the big 3). Maybe dodge has changed don't know.

I was the same, grew up always thinking anything with a Chrysler (Plymouth/Dodge) badge was junk, and I still think that's mostly true of their products of that time (1975-1995). But then GM and Ford both discontinued all manual transmissions with V8's in their light trucks, so I decided to give Dodge a first look in 2005.

Now, 17 years and four Dodge products later, I've come to know and love the modern Daimler Dodge and Fiat Dodge. Having also owned several Mercedes products, the impact of the Daimler ownership is clear and overwhelming, they almost appear to have the same interior design teams. Moreover, they seem to have really improved their quality.

Dodge still, and likely always will target the performance-minded young male market, which is going to mean they have to keep costs in check. But one of many things I've learned over the least 20 years working as a design engineer, and automobile owner, is that reliability and perceived quality are completely unrelated.

My GM's had heavier hubs, larger bolt patterns with more lugs, heavier control arms, even heavier gauge sheet metal in the body and bed floor... but broke down constantly. Meanwhile, the Dodge that replaced my last Chevy was lighter and cheaper in so many ways, but infinitely more reliable. Go figure...

No vehicle is perfect, and no brand owes anything to it's legacy, you can't determine the quality of today's Ford by one designed and built 20 years ago by a completely different team and management. But at least right now, I'll probably continue buying Dodge products, as their local dealer has been very good to us. I have two Dodge's and one Ram in the garage right now (2015, 2016, 2020).

 

[ABMax24]

Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?

We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.

 

[Ashful]

Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?

We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.

I guess it'd be ironic if they start adding liquid fuel sources to BEV's for the sole purpose of cold-weather heating. Gasoline, anyone? LP?

@woodgeek's probably going to run the efficiency numbers on this, before I'm back at my computer tomorrow morning, but I suppose it wouldn't be a terrible solution for getting those in the Arctic onto BEV's. Much like your homes ASHP switches to propane or nat.gas auxiliary when temps plummet.

 

[woodgeek]

Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?

We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.

Yup. BEVs require more energy (= lower range) in cold weather, and this effect becomes significant in REAL cold.

I have heard the Tesla has 'double pane' windows... but don't know much about that. I assume that is for higher efficiency and range due to reduced cabin HVAC, but I don't know.

That, plus insulating the body panels would do a lot.

A few BEVs have heat pumps for improved cold weather performance, but no surprise, I have never seen how much good they do at -20 to -30 °C.

Us old-school (think 20 kWh Nissan LEAF) BEV drivers got used to winter driving around with the cabin heater off with the heated seats and heated steering wheel cranked. And just enough fresh air from outside to keep the windows from fogging up.

I have not seen any BEVs sold with a 'cold weather' package, but I suppose that is just a matter of time.

There is a well known EV YouTuber in Norway, Bjorn Nyland. As we say, Oslo has a climate similar to Boston, not that cold. But this guy likes to test drive EVs up to the Arctic circle, and then sleeps in them overnight at -30°C before driving home. He has bricked a few cars that way.

One example:

 

[peakbagger]

Toyota sells a cold weather package for the Rav 4 Prime in Canada. I think its a block heater. They all come with laminated front and siide glass to reduce road noise and most come with a heated strip on the bottom of the windshield to defrost the wiper blades. I do not have a remote start on my Prime but I do have a preheat mode on the key fob that allows me the remotely turn on the heat pump. The battery also has a heater in it for cold weather as Lithium chemistries do not like cold temps. Those who care to pay Toyota for access on their cell phone can program a warm up time. Done manually it works pretty well. The HVAC system default is to always bring in fresh air so when I get in it, I push the button to put it in recirc mode. If its 20 F or below the engine usually kicks on and then I get plenty of heat in a few minutes. I try not to use the seat heaters as they are strictly electrical resistance, the same with the steering wheel heater but both quite effective.

I had a friend with a VW with only one good heater box and the heater channels were rusted out. He had an industrial hose hooked to the one good heater box that ran out under the rear seat and sat between the two front seats. If he needed to defrost he just held the hose up to the window.

 

[woodgeek]

Toyota sells a cold weather package for the Rav 4 Prime in Canada. I think its a block heater. They all come with laminated front and siide glass to reduce road noise and most come with a heated strip on the bottom of the windshield to defrost the wiper blades. I do not have a remote start on my Prime but I do have a preheat mode on the key fob that allows me the remotely turn on the heat pump. The battery also has a heater in it for cold weather as Lithium chemistries do not like cold temps. Those who care to pay Toyota for access on their cell phone can program a warm up time. Done manually it works pretty well. The HVAC system default is to always bring in fresh air so when I get in it, I push the button to put it in recirc mode. If its 20 F or below the engine usually kicks on and then I get plenty of heat in a few minutes. I try not to use the seat heaters as they are strictly electrical resistance, the same with the steering wheel heater but both quite effective.

I had a friend with a VW with only one good heater box and the heater channels were rusted out. He had an industrial hose hooked to the one good heater box that ran out under the rear seat and sat between the two front seats. If he needed to defrost he just held the hose up to the window.

The seat heaters are about 50-80W each, the wheel heater even less. The cabin heater is 2-4 kW. Using the seat heaters extends range even if you just bump down the cabin temp a couple degrees.

All EVs DO come with some battery heater (even the LEAF). But most chemistries don't get damaged until they get to below -5°F or less. But the cars all have a self-preservation and heating feature to avoid that fate.

 

[EbS-P]

Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?

We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.

Nothing. They are adding more glass. There is not much market for extreme cold weather. I guess adding bubble wrap to windows and extra insulation to the floor is something you could do.

 

[bholler]

While young I have owned a fair amount of 70's and 80's vehicles and am familiar with the amount of maintenance associated with them.

Your point is well taken. I believe in general vehicles are more reliable than they were, but there are some inherent flaws that almost every model has that should be addressed. For instance in your (and every other in the segment V8), lifters do collapse. While it's not a crazy percentage, it is certainly an issue. I can't see spending $40k+ on something that might drop a lifter and send metal through the motor.

This is just one example (one that I have had happen on the 277k mile vehicle above and repaired myself). My friend just lost a head gasket in his 100k mile Subaru. Perhaps it's just the nature of things.

Anyone buying a Subaru should know their head gaskets need done around 100k. It's been that way for years now. I think it's rediculous but a very well known issue

 

[Ashful]

Anyone buying a Subaru should know their head gaskets need done around 100k. It's been that way for years now. I think it's rediculous but a very well known issue

Before spending many years as an engineering / R&D manager, I used to think everything should be built so it couldn't fail. But the only people who can afford to fund that are NASA and Lockheed, due to the testing and ECN's required to move in that direction. There's always going to be a practical decision of whether it's cheaper to manage and repair around a known MTTF, versus designing it out.

Subaru obviously has the engineering wherewithal to design this problem out, if that was the more sensible choice, based on market pressures and profit. The fact that they have not is more an indication of what the market demands than anything else, in terms of upfront cost vs. TOC, or other factors. It's very likely there's a number of other factors and design decisions which would be impacted by whatever change is required to fully resolve the issue, perhaps even leading to performance or reliability losses elsewhere, if not just increased cost and schedule delays.

Put otherwise, how many new car buyers would be willing to pay much more for the same Subaru, to avoid that scheduled head gasket replacement at 100k miles, if that's what it took?

 

[bholler]

Before spending many years as an engineering / R&D manager, I used to think everything should be built so it couldn't fail. But the only people who can afford to fund that are NASA and Lockheed, due to the testing and ECN's required to move in that direction. There's always going to be a practical decision of whether it's cheaper to manage and repair around a known MTTF, versus designing it out.

Subaru obviously has the engineering wherewithal to design this problem out, if that was the more sensible choice, based on market pressures and profit. The fact that they have not is more an indication of what the market demands than anything else, in terms of upfront cost vs. TOC, or other factors. It's very likely there's a number of other factors and design decisions which would be impacted by whatever change is required to fully resolve the issue, perhaps even leading to performance or reliability losses elsewhere, if not just increased cost and schedule delays.

Put otherwise, how many new car buyers would be willing to pay much more for the same Subaru, to avoid that scheduled head gasket replacement at 100k miles, if that's what it took?

Oh I agree. The problem I have with it is the really high resale value of used Subarus with a known issue that will require pulling the motor to replace head gaskets. If it was like a normal online 4 or v motor where they could be done in the car it would be different

 

[Shank]

Before spending many years as an engineering / R&D manager, I used to think everything should be built so it couldn't fail. But the only people who can afford to fund that are NASA and Lockheed, due to the testing and ECN's required to move in that direction. There's always going to be a practical decision of whether it's cheaper to manage and repair around a known MTTF, versus designing it out.

Subaru obviously has the engineering wherewithal to design this problem out, if that was the more sensible choice, based on market pressures and profit. The fact that they have not is more an indication of what the market demands than anything else, in terms of upfront cost vs. TOC, or other factors. It's very likely there's a number of other factors and design decisions which would be impacted by whatever change is required to fully resolve the issue, perhaps even leading to performance or reliability losses elsewhere, if not just increased cost and schedule delays.

Put otherwise, how many new car buyers would be willing to pay much more for the same Subaru, to avoid that scheduled head gasket replacement at 100k miles, if that's what it took?

Interesting point, and I know this is starting to leave the BEV topic (but really not, guaranteed there are known flaws in plenty of electric vehicles that could be resolved and haven't for the same reasons).

I suppose the average car buyer might not be willing, but myself personally, I would pay a fair amount to have a relatively fatal flaw corrected before I took ownership, but as I currently see expenses going I would like to drive every new vehicle at least 150k miles. Being able to do repairs myself also is almost an inconvenience because I see a quote then almost always decide to repair it myself.

I do have some similar reservations (on top of some inconveniences) with electric vehicles. I do see some potential major upsides as well.

 

[Ashful]

It will be interesting to see how DIY'ers handle the BEV's, as they become more dominant. We're sure to see the same dichotomy observed 40 years ago, when hotrodders born in the 1930's were frustrated they couldn't "simply" retune the carburetor on their 1980's EFI vehicles. Looking back, how many of today's young DIY'ers really think a carburetor is "simple", versus reading codes and replacing sensors?

It's very likely that our kids will be all over the BEV's, modding, repairing and finding them very easy to work on at home, by comparison to what we're driving today.

 

[Shank]

It will be interesting to see how DIY'ers handle the BEV's, as they become more dominant. We're sure to see the same dichotomy observed 40 years ago, when hotrodders born in the 1930's were frustrated they couldn't "simply" retune the carburetor on their 1980's EFI vehicles. Looking back, how many of today's young DIY'ers really think a carburetor is "simple", versus reading codes and replacing sensors?

It's very likely that our kids will be all over the BEV's, modding, repairing and finding them very easy to work on at home, by comparison to what we're driving today.

Having dealt with both I suppose it is somewhat of a wash to me between working on carbureted engines or fuel injected but I am certainly too young to be primarily dealing with a carbureted vehicle.

You do bring up a valid point that is also somewhat of a concern to me. I like the associated savings of doing my own maintenance even though I despise doing the work and I am unsure how much (or little) I will be able to do on an electric vehicle. I am quite computer literate and have decent electrical skills but I don't know how this will play in.

I have actually considered toying with a used electric vehicle or building something just to learn.

 

[sloeffle]

Have the Japanese and Germans pretty much given up on building a BEV truck ?

 

[EbS-P]

It will be interesting to see how DIY'ers handle the BEV's, as they become more dominant. We're sure to see the same dichotomy observed 40 years ago, when hotrodders born in the 1930's were frustrated they couldn't "simply" retune the carburetor on their 1980's EFI vehicles. Looking back, how many of today's young DIY'ers really think a carburetor is "simple", versus reading codes and replacing sensors?

It's very likely that our kids will be all over the BEV's, modding, repairing and finding them very easy to work on at home, by comparison to what we're driving today.

So high voltage insulated tools will be as common as sockets in a tool box??

 

[ABMax24]

I guess it'd be ironic if they start adding liquid fuel sources to BEV's for the sole purpose of cold-weather heating. Gasoline, anyone? LP?

@woodgeek's probably going to run the efficiency numbers on this, before I'm back at my computer tomorrow morning, but I suppose it wouldn't be a terrible solution for getting those in the Arctic onto BEV's. Much like your homes ASHP switches to propane or nat.gas auxiliary when temps plummet.

That's kinda what I was thinking. This is where a PHEV comes in handy, because the engine still heats the cab. My parents just bought a Rav 4 hybrid (not the prime) and it works good for heat. Issue is all fuel economy benefit is lost in the cold, on the highway they got the same mileage we did in the Colorado.

I think I have a picture of a car with a mini wood stove in the trunk, I'll have to find it and add it to the unsafe installs thread.

We don't run ASHP's up here, the transition from summer to winter is to abrupt to justify their cost, you'd be lucky to get a month's use per year out of one.

 

[SpaceBus]

Cars today are so reliable, we find anything to nit pick. Old cars needed valve adjustments and rarely made it past ten years.

 

[SpaceBus]

Anyone buying a Subaru should know their head gaskets need done around 100k. It's been that way for years now. I think it's rediculous but a very well known issue

This is because the block is positively charged and will slowly degrade the coolant until it starts eating the gaskets. If you keep up on changing the fluids they tend to last longer. However, a boxer engine will never be as reliable as an inline engine due to a variety of factors, and a big reason why I'll probably never own one.

 

[walhondingnashua]

Having dealt with both I suppose it is somewhat of a wash to me between working on carbureted engines or fuel injected but I am certainly too young to be primarily dealing with a carbureted vehicle.

You do bring up a valid point that is also somewhat of a concern to me. I like the associated savings of doing my own maintenance even though I despise doing the work and I am unsure how much (or little) I will be able to do on an electric vehicle. I am quite computer literate and have decent electrical skills but I don't know how this will play in.

I have actually considered toying with a used electric vehicle or building something just to learn.

There's a guy that has a channel on youtube that "works up" used teslas, so some people are already starting. the performance output of electric compared to gas should have people that just want to go fast excited.
On the topic of repair, I read an article (but cannot remember from where) that worked out the numbers on things like oil changes, repair costs for common issues, etc. along with fuel costs compared to charging. In general, a comparison of cost of ownership. I believe the comparison was with a Ford XLT F-150 compared to an XLT Ligthning. The numbers worked out in the favor of the Lightning.

 

[bholler]

There's a guy that has a channel on youtube that "works up" used teslas, so some people are already starting. the performance output of electric compared to gas should have people that just want to go fast excited.
On the topic of repair, I read an article (but cannot remember from where) that worked out the numbers on things like oil changes, repair costs for common issues, etc. along with fuel costs compared to charging. In general, a comparison of cost of ownership. I believe the comparison was with a Ford XLT F-150 compared to an XLT Ligthning. The numbers worked out in the favor of the Lightning.

I don't doubt that is true as long as there aren't other unforseen maintenance costs with the EV