Big E - AC Power ? re: GFCI

[phil san]

Finally instaling Breckwell big E in my finished basement. Only question is, why the manual states NOT to use a GFCI outlet. The operator manual states it probably will affect
the control panel. Just a pain since I've got GFCI down there and will have to run a seperate 120 AC.

Just like to understand whats the deal with a protected circuit. Half my house is on them and no issues with anything electrical. In fact my Empress FI has been runnig fine and is connected GFCI.

 

[imacman]

That's interesting....I wouldn't think there would be any reason not to plug a stove into a GFI. Maybe the initial "surge" from the ignitor and blowers coming on will trip the GFI?? Maybe shoot an email or PM off to Eric at Kinsman.....he's a Breckwell dealer.

 

[hkillam]

Getting a non GFCI outlet won't necessarily be too difficult. If you have a nearby GFCI receptacle (outlet) which is first in the branch circuit/string, you should be able to access the unprotected output from the receptacle. Most GFCI's can be wired to either provice GFCI protection to other outlets further down the branch circuit, or or wire them to NOT be GFCI protected. This isn't too unusual, as many people want their basement freezers to NOT BE GFCI protected, same with fridge in the kitchen, since a GFCI can open the circuit without you knowing it, and then the next time you go to the freezer, the contents are all melted.

You might have to add another outlet next to the existing GFCI outlet to do this, but it's a lot easier then adding a whole additional branch circuit. Of course (legal disclaimer coming) check with a qualified electrician and/or your local electrical inspector before doing this. And if you do add another outlet as described, use a single outlet, not a duplex, that way only one device can be plugged into the non-GFCI protected portion of the circuit, and mark the outside of the outlet (on the outlet cover) so it is clearly labeled as non-protected.

 

[seige101]

They state not to use a GFCI outlet because of nuisance tripping especially with the older outlets. The new modern ones aren't as prone to it.

For a dedicated appliance we would install a single outlet.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

some GFCI 's willtrip when the igniter kicks in during startup. i imagine they ran into this in development (we did too) not all of them do, but its a PITA to have to reset your wall socket 2 minutes after each startup. get a good surge protector and use a standard plug for the stove , the circuit breaker in the breaker box will protect you from ground fault just as well as a GFCI will IMHO

NOTE exception to this statement would be if code requires GFCI due to location of the plug. do not violate code. if this will be an issue , call their service department, or as mac said , call eric at kinsman and see if he has a solution (great guy , he'll get you on the right track)

 

[phil san]

The circuits nearby are all GFI by the beaker on the panel. No problem to take a lead off of a non-gfi, just there is an existing GFCI outlet where my install will be. Emailed Breckwell and their response was the standard " may interfere with the sensitive
electronics of the stove". I was hoping to find a more resonable and detailed answer as it doesn't make sense. If the initial startup surge would trip the breaker it sure does not do it on my Enviro Pellet FI gfci I've been running for a year.

 

[hossthehermit]

The circuits nearby are all GFI by the beaker on the panel. No problem to take a lead off of a non-gfi, just there is an existing GFCI outlet where my install will be. Emailed Breckwell and their response was the standard " may interfere with the sensitive
electronics of the stove". I was hoping to find a more resonable and detailed answer as it doesn't make sense. If the initial startup surge would trip the breaker it sure does not do it on my Enviro Pellet FI gfci I've been running for a year.

Way I see it, ya got 2 choices. Do it your way, it will probably be fine. Do it their way, keep your warranty. BUT, that's just MY opinion

 

[phil san]

I plan on doing it their way. No sense onkilling a circuit board and then trying to get a new one.

Just wanted to underdstand the reasoning. Will get an answer eventually. This board always does!

 

[Dr_Drum]

My understanding is that all of these pellet stoves use a form of VFD (variable frequency drive) motor. These motors (by nature) leak some very small amount of current back to the ground system. Not enough to trip a normal circuit breaker, I think around 2mA, and under the 6-10mA range required to stop your heart, but somtimes enough to trip GFCI's. Something to do with induced currents created by the particular windings in a VFD motor and shaft. GFCI's monitor and compare the lines (wires) for an unbalanced load and assumes there is a ground fault if the lines arn't balanced. I think this is the explanation I received when complaining about why my tredmill motor kept surging. I don't know exactly why my tredmill doesn't trip the GFCI completely, but the GFCI definitely messes with the speed control system on the tredmill. Plug into a normal outlet and no problems.

One installed GFCI is only supposed to protect 5-6 normal outlets run downstream of it. Move the GFCI downstream of the outlet you need to use and replace that outlet with a non-GFCI outlet. Maybe that will work for you?
Mike -

 

[phil san]

Just going to run a regular socket take off today. 30 min job. That’s a very cool answer. Thought I was at the LasAlamos testing lab with Einstein and boys I think the small amount of current back to ground sounds reasonable but I always was under the impression GFI
circuit broke on the most infinitesimal leak.
Now I'm getting curious. For the heck of it, I'm going to run my Enviro FI on a regular line and see if anything is noticeably different.
.

 

[Dr_Drum]

. . .but I always was under the impression GFI circuit broke on the most infinitesimal leak.

GFCI's trip in the 4-6mA range, usually 5 is the trip. I personally have never had a VFD motor actually trip the GFCI, so the comparison between the live and neutral leads must remain within an acceptable tolerance for the device. Something else that I don't understand (yet) causes issues with the VFD controller. I got this from some web site:

. . .it has to do with the fact that the input current to the VFD distorts the sine wave of the power supply. Looking at it on a dual-trace oscilloscope, the waveforms of the hot and neutral don't always match . . . goes on to say something about the VFD controller detects this and goes into a temporary "fault mode". This is why my treadmill motor slows down, then tries to speed back up to the set speed.

I imagine it's very close to the same issue for the Pellet Stove?
Good luck, Mike -

 

[charles u farley]

I've never seen anything in a stove that would constitute a VFD. Augers are constant speed and fan motors are just shaded pole with phase angle speed controls. The ignitor would be the only thing I can think of that under normal operation might have any leakage current to trip a GFI.
Using it on a GFI protected circuit will NOT harm your stove any more than unplugging it while running. Manufacturer saying anything about "sensitive electronics" in this case is just tech support incompetence and BS.

ps. I'm a sparkie by trade.

 

[phil san]

Breckwell MUST have a reason for not using a GFI. What it is I can't figure. Heres their ops manuals
"This stove is provided with a 6-foot grounded electrical cord
extending from the rear of the stove.
We recommend connecting to a good quality surge protector
that is plugged into a standard three-prong, 120V, 60 Hz
electrical outlet.
Do NOT connect the unit to a GFCI socket.
Voltage variations can lead to serious performance problems. The
Breckwell electrical system is designed for 120V AC with no more
than 5% variation. Breckwell cannot accept responsibility for poor
performance or damage due to inadequate voltage. If connected to
an older, two-prong outlet, a separate ground wire should be run to
a proper ground (refer this to a qualified technician). Always route
the electrical cord so that it will not come in contact with any hot part
of the stove."

Well are there not voltage regulations normally, storms etc.?

 

[imacman]

.......Well are there not voltage regulations normally, storms etc.?

Yes there are. IMOO, don't worry about it. My pellet stove is connected to a whole circuit GFI, and I've never had any problems.

 

[charles u farley]

Breckwell MUST have a reason for not using a GFI. What it is I can't figure. Heres their ops manuals
<snip>
Do NOT connect the unit to a GFCI socket.

Simple, they have found during testing or complaints from customers that their stove design can cause nuisance tripping of GFIs and people coming home to a cold house. The options would be a possibly difficult stove redesign or instructing the user not to plug into a GFI. The GFI issue is a separate issue from the voltage variation issue.

Voltage variations can lead to serious performance problems. The
Breckwell electrical system is designed for 120V AC with no more
than 5% variation. Breckwell cannot accept responsibility for poor
performance or damage due to inadequate voltage. If connected to
an older, two-prong outlet, a separate ground wire should be run to
a proper ground (refer this to a qualified technician). Always route
the electrical cord so that it will not come in contact with any hot part
of the stove."

Well are there not voltage regulations normally, storms etc.?

Many common occurrences other than storms will cause short duration voltage variations exceeding 5%. The unit should operate without damage a fair bit beyond the 5% they state. Lawyers made them do it.

As macman said, don't worry about it. Maybe use a good quality (surge suppressor type) powerbar for a bit of preventive medicine for storm surges. Plug in, turn on, get warm.

 

[imacman]

.....Plug in, turn on, get warm.

Sounds like something I once heard about Woodstock.... :lol:

 

[MCPO]

Nuisance tripping of a GFCI could be a valid concern for those of you who trust the pellet stove to keep the house from freezing and confident it will run dependably for longer periods of time while you are away from home. Or those of you who have stoves that leak smoke in the room when the power goes out.

 

[phil san]

Well it is a basement install I will only run a few hours a day during the deep winter months. I ran a new non GFI line yesterday. However, I am going to plug into a GFCI circuit sometime, just to see what happens. If I was running 24/7 I wouldn't take the chance to come home to cold. Again, I run my Enviro off a GFI and never an issue.