Big hole in my fireplace surround...

[ADK_XJ]

Heading into my second year of burning and boy have I learned a lot from this site — I took today off to get serious about some final wood splitting, a chimney sweeping and also taking a look behind my i2400 insert install. The install was done by a "professional" installer and, when I found this site after, I had the sinking feeling that I had been fed the usual lines others have heard: you don't need a block off, oh yeah we insulated it, etc.

Well, I opened up the surround from the insert and poked my head back there today...as I expected, there's some stray insulation hanging down around the flue but what I didn't expect was this massive hole cut into the metal fireplace surround itself right behind the liner connection. What the heck is that all about?

I need to get my father-in-law out here to help me pull the stove out and then I'm hoping to do something like this infamous insulation install with Roxul and Durock: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...lating-my-fireplace.75755/page-2#post-1629779

Either way, take a look at these pics — is this really screwy or what?

 

[mellow]

They did what they said, they stuffed some insulation up there. Make a block off plate and insulate that fireplace and you will see a big difference in heat output, especially if that is an exterior fireplace. The pics are crap but it looks to me like they cut out the damper to make room for the liner, pretty standard.

 

[bholler]

The only thing that is wrong that i see is the fact that they used fiberglass insulation. We would install a blockoff plate but that is not required and is not industry standard. As far as the hole goes we cut out the back to usually not that much but they may have had to to make it fit.

 

[jatoxico]

Well I'm with the OP on this one. While they may have had to cut what they did they did nothing in the way of insulating after. This was apparently discussed prior to the install leading the OP to assume it was done. Those couple of pieces of insulation are as good as having nothing. It would have taken very little effort or expense to do it right and the OP did not get what he asked for.

Fill the area above and below the damper down to a metal plate and you'll see great gains as Mellow said.

 

[bholler]

Well I'm with the OP on this one. While they may have had to cut what they did they did nothing in the way of insulating after. This was apparently discussed prior to the install leading the OP to assume it was done. Those couple of pieces of insulation are as good as having nothing. It would have taken very little effort or expense to do it right and the OP did not get what he asked for.

The op didn't say that the installer said they blocked it off. Only that they insulated it which the liner may very well be insulated. I agree it is not the greatest install but at least they didn't smash the liner to get through the damper. Unless the op spacifically asked for a block off plate and the installer agreed to it i don't see anything negligent at all. We do a better job yes but we also charge more than most.

 

[jatoxico]

The op didn't say that the installer said they blocked it off. Only that they insulated it which the liner may very well be insulated. I agree it is not the greatest install but at least they didn't smash the liner to get through the damper. Unless the op spacifically asked for a block off plate and the installer agreed to it i don't see anything negligent at all. We do a better job yes but we also charge more than most.

No they didn't say they blocked it off. They said it was unnecessary then went ahead and did a shoddy insulation job to shut the customer up and were on their way. They have no idea how the stoves run that they have installed or how much better it could have been done. Poster after poster comes here with similar stories. "My installer says the plate isn't needed, it will cause failure and you don't need to insulate the liner, cats are bad". Heard it all.

Bholler I wish I could have found an installer who takes his profession as seriously as you seem to do. Believe me I looked and was willing to pay. But in my experience most dealers and installers have a know it all attitude which just happens to justify their wham bam thank you mam installs. I was unable to find an installer wiling to even concede that a block off plate might work never mind consider doing it. I had to insist on Roxul (never heard of it) and even when used it was installed in a similarly worthless way as the OP. This coming from the most knowledgeable dealer I could find. In the end I had to do it myself.

IMO the dealer network for sale and install of these stoves is lacking in knowledge and abilty in all but a few note-worthy cases. Stepping down from soap box but thank goodness for this web site.

 

[ADK_XJ]

Thanks for the feedback, all. Yeah, those pictures are pretty crappy aren't they? For one they somehow got rotated when I uploaded but they were also taken in the small space between the top of the insert and the brick fireplace that I could fit my phone into. I'm going to pull the unit out this weekend with my FIL and get a better look.

I picked up the R15 "comfortbatt" of Roxul, a sheet of 26ga steel and a big sheet of Durock today. I'll make this right now that I know what I'm looking for thanks to the site.

As far as the installer, no I didn't use words like "block off plate" or "fire rated insulation" so that is on me and now I know better. However, it was discussed that both the bottom and top of the new liner were "sealed and insulated." I'm still not 100% sure why that square was cut out of the metal backing but I'll be able to see when we start taking it apart.

One question for @mellow or others is how did you fix your Durock into place over any Roxul batts? Or did you only use one or the other in any given place?

 

[bholler]

I had to insist on Roxul (never heard of it)

We will not use roxul either it is not an approved chimney insulation. I dont have a problem with it but as a pro i cant use it unless it is tested and approved.

 

[bholler]

The problem is most installers are worried about keeping their price down to be competitive. We are not competitive i have been told here a few times my price is ridiculous. our price for an average wood stove liner at say 20' would be between $2000 and $2500. I have heard many here say that should not be over $1500. If you want a top quality install it is going to cost quite a bit more. I know for inserts we add $250 to 300 for the blockoff plate.

 

[jatoxico]

The problem is most installers are worried about keeping their price down to be competitive. We are not competitive i have been told here a few times my price is ridiculous. our price for an average wood stove liner at say 20' would be between $2000 and $2500. I have heard many here say that should not be over $1500. If you want a top quality install it is going to cost quite a bit more. I know for inserts we add $250 to 300 for the blockoff plate.

But you know your business and can educate you customers as to the benefits of different or optional components. If they choose to shop by price alone that's their choice.

 

[bholler]

But you know your business and can educate you customers as to the benefits of different or optional components. If they choose to shop by price alone that's their choice.

Very true but honestly there are many that simply cant afford our work and as long as the cheaper guys do it safely i feel they have a good place in the market as well

 

[jatoxico]

Very true but honestly there are many that simply cant afford our work and as long as the cheaper guys do it safely i feel they have a good place in the market as well

Fact remains that I seem to see that all too often installers are talking people into the install they want to do and justify it with nonsense and misinformation. As opposed to saying this is the minimum for safety and these are the different options and their benefits. It will improve performance but it will cost a bit more; what do you want to do?

 

[ADK_XJ]

Fact remains that I seem to see that all too often installers are talking people into the install they want do and justify it with nonsense and misinformation. As opposed to saying this is the minimum for safety and these are the different options and their benefits. It will improve performance but it will cost a bit more; what do you want do?

Yeah, I'm with you there. I'm not a wealthy individual and probably never will be but if someone had actually presented options with some basic info of the benefits (potential or actual) I'd like to think I would have gladly ponied up another couple hundred for a more complete install.

As it was I spent about $3000 on the regency insert with blower and the steel flex liner - I spent another $800 something just for the installation. It took them a couple hours and they did deliver the stove but I guess I wonder how there can be such a disparity in knowledge among these contractors. Maybe they mostly just don't want to be bothered?

 

[jatoxico]

Maybe they mostly just don't want to be bothered?

I think that's a big part of it. They want to do 2-3 installs a day or whatever. Perhaps the volume of sales isn't there to justify it but the manufacturers don't seem to be taking the lead in dealer education either.The sales force seem equally if not more clueless about stove operation and fuel (wood) requirements. Anybody say <20% moisture to you? Me either.

 

[mass_burner]

The problem is most installers are worried about keeping their price down to be competitive. We are not competitive i have been told here a few times my price is ridiculous. our price for an average wood stove liner at say 20' would be between $2000 and $2500. I have heard many here say that should not be over $1500. If you want a top quality install it is going to cost quite a bit more. I know for inserts we add $250 to 300 for the blockoff plate.

Hmmm, my csia certified installer charged me 1225, for insert install, block off plate, roxul, liner insulation, permit, and even a cleaning of a different liner.

 

[Woody harrelson]

I took today off to get serious about some final wood splitting

there's no such thing as final wood splitting brother, it never ends.

 

[bholler]

Hmmm, my csia certified installer charged me 1225, for insert install, block off plate, roxul, liner insulation, permit, and even a cleaning of a different liner.

They are not using heavy wall liners at that price. How long did they spend cleaning the fireplace before installing we typically spend at least an hour just on that. That price would not cover our materials and operating costs for the installs we do. Like i said i don't have any issue with guys doing cheaper installs as long as they do it safely but there is no way we could stay in business doing the type of installs we do at those prices. But there is absolutely a place for cheaper installers as well.

 

[Nick Mystic]

Here in America (and probably many other countries) the consumer is always on guard it avoid getting ripped off. Since it's not often practical to ask for references and then go check on a businesses work we tend to pick our contractor based upon price (meaning: low price gets the job). When I used to do some remodeling for folks I would tell my potential customers that I couldn't give them a price quote (beyond a ballpark figure) since there are too many unknowns in most remodeling jobs. You never know what's going to be behind a wall, how many unseen complications might arise, etc. I explained to them if I gave a firm price quote I'd have to factor in time for possible unknowns to cover myself in case I discovered something that we didn't know about. If the job went smooth, then I'd get a windfall from my inflated price and they would end up paying more than they needed to.

I also explained the dangers of accepting the lowest bid they get because if the contractor has one of these unknowns pop up and he's given you a guaranteed price then he's likely to cut his losses and give you an inferior job so that he can get out without losing too much money on the job. I would only do work for an hourly wage and the actual cost of materials. Most of my customers ended up happy in the end because I do an exceptionally high quality of work and more times than not we did have some significant unknowns present themselves. Once the customer saw what we faced they understood how it would have been unfair to expect me to have foot the bill for these unknowns. And if everything went smooth they were pleased to see how low their bill was for such good work.

 

[ADK_XJ]

there's no such thing as final wood splitting brother, it never ends.

Ha, ain't that the truth. I meant "final" as in for this year - and the wood itself is actually for Winter 16/17 or even 17/18. FIL and I put away 3.5 cord of black locust today with a rented 40 ton splitter. Holy smokes am I'm beat.

 

[mellow]

One question for @mellow or others is how did you fix your Durock into place over any Roxul batts? Or did you only use one or the other in any given place?

I have a metal firebox so I used screws to hold my durock with roxul behind it, made a sandwich where I could fit it. I used the durock on the sides where I didn't have space for the roxul, the most important spots to really insulate is the back and top if you have an exterior fireplace, the sides are usually in the building envelope and do not need as much insulation as the heat will radiate to the living space.

 

[ADK_XJ]

I have a metal firebox so I used screws to hold my durock with roxul behind it, made a sandwich where I could fit it. I used the durock on the sides where I didn't have space for the roxul, the most important spots to really insulate is the back and top if you have an exterior fireplace, the sides are usually in the building envelope and do not need as much insulation as the heat will radiate to the living space.

Okay, perfect. I have a metal firebox as well — any recommendations on the screws you used? Did you just get some long self-tapping or run bolts somehow? I'm not the most handy homeowner (only having been one for about 2 years) but I'm learning with some help from my father-in-law.

The idea of a roxul/durock "sandwich" makes perfect sense to me and I think I can probably fit at least one layer of that on each side of the firebox and should have clearance to do a sheet metal block-off with roxul above.

Thanks for all the great information! It's appreciated.

 

[mellow]

I ended up drilling pilot holes then using metal screws, I think I got 4" so it was long enough to not compress the roxul to much, been a ways back now.