aansorge
Minister of Fire
I run two stoves during the cold stretches and love it. I don't have to overwork either stove ever.
Bigger stove or second stove?
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If I wanted to go the one stove route, would going from a lopi endeavor to a BK princess be an upgrade? Or be in the same boat I'm at now?
And the Mrs would like something nicer than a black box if we added a second stove. She's taken quite a liking to the looks of the PE Vista classic. What's the thoughts on that?
And the Mrs would like something nicer than a black box if we added a second stove. She's taken quite a liking to the looks of the PE Vista classic. What's the thoughts on that?
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Yes, it would be an upgrade in several ways.
1. Endeavor max BTU = 72k, Princess Max BTU = 464k. That's more than 6 times higher, which is frankly a little difficult to believe, but it's right there on their data sheets.
(edit: I was half right. The BTU numbers were too good to believe, or at least they were to be intepreted differently. See below.)
2. Endeavor max burn time = 10 hours, Princess max burn time = 30 hours.
3. Princess comes with BK support, including BKVP on this forum, Endeavor doesn't.
4. Princess has automatic thermostat, which actually works, keeping near-perfectly even heat output throughout the entire burn cycle.
5. Princess has 88% efficiency at LHV, Endeavor is 79%. That's a lot of wood saved.
1. Endeavor max BTU = 72k, Princess Max BTU = 464k. That's more than 6 times higher, which is frankly a little difficult to believe, but it's right there on their data sheets.
(edit: I was half right. The BTU numbers were too good to believe, or at least they were to be intepreted differently. See below.)
2. Endeavor max burn time = 10 hours, Princess max burn time = 30 hours.
3. Princess comes with BK support, including BKVP on this forum, Endeavor doesn't.
4. Princess has automatic thermostat, which actually works, keeping near-perfectly even heat output throughout the entire burn cycle.
5. Princess has 88% efficiency at LHV, Endeavor is 79%. That's a lot of wood saved.
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Uhhh you are comparing the btu input numbers from the bk to the output numbers of the lopi. The bk output number is 40,836 which is lower than the lopi. But that output is spread over a longer time and much more evenly.
It's a nice little stove and a well behaved performer. The only downside compared to the Spectrum classic is that it's an E/W loader unless the wood is cut short.
Quadrafire 5700 or Regency 5100 - Both nice large stoves that can put out good heat and hold a fire.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Thank you. I knew those numbers were too far apart to believe. I'll fix my post to avoid confusion.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I just checked the numbers again, and I see what I did. But looking closer, BK's "constant output on high" number is very conservative, in my opinion.
Basic math, the stove has a 2.75 cu.ft. firebox. When I load the box, I play a game of Tetris, which I suspect must give me better than 80% packing density. However, let's step way back, and just use typical published cord BTU values, which are normally based on a very low 85/128 = 66% packing density.
There's about 515,625 BTU in 2.75 cu.ft. of oak, packaged at this lowly 66% packing density. That would be with a full third of the useable space of the firebox being air.
Now, I don't own a Princess, but my Ashford can rip out probably close to a third of those BTU's in the first hour of a burn. I can burn down a full load of oak in maybe 5 hours. These numbers seem to point much, much higher than their published "Constant Heat output on High 40,836 BTU's/h for 10 hours". I'm thinking more than 150,000 BTU in the first hour, and at least 100,000 BTU for a few hours after that, based on these numbers.
Can't a Princess, run on the highest setting, rip thru a 500k BTU load of wood in less than 10 hours?
Basic math, the stove has a 2.75 cu.ft. firebox. When I load the box, I play a game of Tetris, which I suspect must give me better than 80% packing density. However, let's step way back, and just use typical published cord BTU values, which are normally based on a very low 85/128 = 66% packing density.
There's about 515,625 BTU in 2.75 cu.ft. of oak, packaged at this lowly 66% packing density. That would be with a full third of the useable space of the firebox being air.
Now, I don't own a Princess, but my Ashford can rip out probably close to a third of those BTU's in the first hour of a burn. I can burn down a full load of oak in maybe 5 hours. These numbers seem to point much, much higher than their published "Constant Heat output on High 40,836 BTU's/h for 10 hours". I'm thinking more than 150,000 BTU in the first hour, and at least 100,000 BTU for a few hours after that, based on these numbers.
Can't a Princess, run on the highest setting, rip thru a 500k BTU load of wood in less than 10 hours?
All those BTUS don't go into the room. Some (20% in this case?) head up the flue. Perhaps much more than 20% when the stove is being pushed that hard.
I'm sure not getting 10 hours of high heat out of my lopi I can tell you. As it is on medium to medium lowish we will only have enough coals to get a fire back going after 7 hours. 10 hours on high I'm assuming is 10 hours of max btu output?
The Endeavor will never provide 10 hrs of high heat. This is not the fault of the stove. Few stoves will, they don't have the firebox capacity. With a 2 cu ft firebox you will get maybe 3 hrs of high heat and then a burn that tapers down over 3-6 hrs depending on how hard the stove is being pushed, draft, wood, etc.. If you want to run a single large stove that will work on a 6" flue look at the Quadrafire Adventure III. That has over double the firebox capacity.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Noting my packing density is much higher than 66% when loading a stove, and the BKs HHV = 81% efficiency, the published numbers still seem low. By maybe 2x.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
I'm quite the PE enthusiast and I'd go with a spectrum over the vista any day just for n/s loading. The spectrum is now called the super classic I believe. And has always been based on the super firebox which is well proven. I have a super insert and can't say enough good things about it.
I have two stoves and heat primarily from the basement with the larger stove and only when we get a cold snap do I need to run the second stove and the two stoves can easily keep up. It gives me a lot of versatility having two stoves. I can afford to not be so on the ball or fussy. If I need a temp boost to the house or want a few extra degrees I can light the second stove and easily catch up. Just because you have two stoves doesn't mean you'll run them both steady or not at all. Often I'll light the second stove at dusk or early evening for ambiance and a little boost in heat and simply let it go out while keeping the basement one going overnight.
I have two stoves and heat primarily from the basement with the larger stove and only when we get a cold snap do I need to run the second stove and the two stoves can easily keep up. It gives me a lot of versatility having two stoves. I can afford to not be so on the ball or fussy. If I need a temp boost to the house or want a few extra degrees I can light the second stove and easily catch up. Just because you have two stoves doesn't mean you'll run them both steady or not at all. Often I'll light the second stove at dusk or early evening for ambiance and a little boost in heat and simply let it go out while keeping the basement one going overnight.
Seasoned Oak
Minister of Fire
Take a look at the better looking cousin of the NC-30 ,the Summers heat 2400SFT also made by englander ,its their latest model.Sort of a new and improved NC-30 . Same price and sits high on a pedestal. I have both stoves and i like the fire view much better as well as easy to load and set back option on the new model.
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I know it's no fault of the stove. It heats like a SOB for a couple hours. Then not so well. The idea is either a stove large enough to put out the heat I seem to need but for much longer. Or a small second stove to help out so to speak. So I don't have to run the endeavor so hard when it's super cold.
I've taken quite a liking to the PE lineup. They seem to have really simplified the reburn deal over a lot of stoves. A dealer in our area sells both the BK and PE line. They offered 25% off the "burn model" on the floor at the end of the season. So I may go see them and see what that's all about. The longer burn times and consistent heat output of the BK is a real turn on to that.
Which is the burn model? If they have a Super 27 or Spectrum on sale that would be the one I'd get.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Not to mention, great looks, convective designs, and what appears to be very good quality. I’ll probably never buy a non-cat, but if they were to outlaw cat stoves tomorrow, PE would be my first stop for my next stove.
So here's another question. I do not have a flu damper on my current set up. My chimney is something like 30' of insulated stainless. Drafts like a SOB. So would a flue damper help my stove burn longer and make some more heat?
So the BK princess is still 2500 and can't be picked up till spring of 2019. The PE alderlea T5 is2300 and can be picked up anytime. I've got a line on an older HS mansfield in real nice shape for 600.
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