BK or NC-30?

[iron]

in a few weeks, i will be embarking on a complete basement remodel (seismic retrofit, changing layout of walls, insulating the concrete floor and walls of the foundation, etc). we have a jog in the foundation wall that used to house a ZC fireplace that i ripped out during this project (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...t-n-glo-northstar-fireplace-with-pics.149631/ - look for the 3rd picture to see the basement area).

originally, we had planned to close off this old fireplace area and frame over it. now, i'm getting the itch to put in a stove there.

i've come to the conclusion that only a BK or an NC-30 makes sense (i either want a cat with incredible burn times, or a tube stove that people love and is cheap).

here are the stats:
basement SF: ~700 in 3 or 4 rooms
chimney run: ~25ft
upstairs will be easily heated by the northstar
floors to be insulated with 1" foam, then subfloor, then carpet
concrete walls to be insulated with sprayed on closed-cell foam to 2" (should be R15 and air sealed)
cripple walls insulated to R13
no concrete will be exposed in the final basement - only drywall and carpet
HVAC is through a heat pump + electric furnace
mild maritime environment

i read through this thread (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/blaze-king-king-on-6-chimney.56497/page-2) regarding the use of 6" chimney. if that size actually works, is this an acceptable product (http://www.homedepot.com/p/DuraVent...-Wall-Chimney-Stove-Pipe-6DP-36SS/100144227)?

unfortunately, with last year being our first year burning wood (part time), we didn't experiment a whole lot with heating the whole house options. we did turn on the re-circ fans on the HVAC system once or twice and it seemed to cycle enough warm air down to the basement to make it tolerable (and that's in its currently insulated state, which is poor). but, i'm not sure how it would do in colder spells. also, i like the idea of not using electricity to heat, although i realize the breakeven cost is probably favored towards the recirc air vs stove.

anyway, i just wanted to get your opinions on which stove. we are expecting our first child in a few months, so keeping the house warm all day will be more important than it is for just the two of us. hence, the idea of a BK and 24hr burns sounds nice. plus, if we don't need to heat the upstairs, it seems like it would be a good fit. OTOH, using the nc-30 could be problematic due to spikes in temperature (highs, then lows) and it could possibly cook us out of the room (which is where i expect the future kids to hang out most).

thanks for reading the long-winded brain dump.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like this will be an alcove installation if going where the ZC was. If so, the wall treatment will be important regarding clearances. With metal studs and Roxul insulation in the alcove walls and cement board covering them there will be no combustibles and no issues. '

If you have the bucks go for a Blaze King. Stick with a 6" vent model like the Scirocco 30 or the Princess. Personally I'd use DuraTech chimney instead of DuraPlus, but the DuraPlus will get the job done.

 

[iron]

yes, alcove setting.

would the princess or scirocco 30 be too big for my setting? i know most people say, go big and just don't stuff full.

but, your general take is that i'd be better served with the cat stove??? do people that still have day jobs load the thing up and head out of the house, leaving the stove unattended for 8+ hours at a time?

 

[begreen]

It will probably be fine. The stove can be turned down quite low if you don't mind a perpetually black window. Yes, people with day jobs load this stove (and others) before heading off to work and have heat when they get home.

How will the heat get upstairs? Is there a large open stairway nearby? Also, is there an outside air supply still in place from the ZC removal?

 

[iron]

i don't really need the heat to go up, but the stairs are ~20' to the opening from where the stove would be. i can install an OAK. i know i removed whatever was there, but i will need to get up the chase anyway to do the pipe, so i can toss in the OAK then. are there limitations to how high the OAK exits to the outside relative to the stove?

a black window doesn't sound good. is that typical of all cat stoves? or, is that just something that happens with running it very low?

 

[begreen]

Being able to dump heat to the rest of the house will help keep the basement area more comfortable and should reduce overall house heating costs. I would plan on having the basement doorway open in winter to facilitate convective flow to upstairs. Ideally an OAK is below the stove but that is not possible in basement installs. The OAK intake should be high enough off the ground to clear leaves and grass and snow.

Cat stoves run at low air supply will blacken the glass. It's pretty typical. This burns off when the stove air is turned up.

 

[Ashful]

Going too big (within some reasonable limit) is much less a concern with a BK, since they can run so slow and low. Remember, a 75 lb. load of wood has a fixed amount of energy, so the longer your burn time, the less BTU's you're throwing. This is why I'd not worry about the BK being too big. You'll have the option to run it very, very low... or let 'er rip wide open.

The NC-30 is a monster of a heater, by all reports. If you want to move a lot of BTU's in rapid fashion, it's a solid choice. However, it's not the stove for someone too worried about overheating a space with the Princess.

 

[tarzan]

Also, you mentioned loading the stove and heading off to work.

With a somewhat busy lifestyle and the assumption from your posts that your heating needs will be relatively low I would give the nod to the BK Princess or a 30 series.

The ability to run low and slow for many, many hours is where a thermostatic controlled cat stove beats a tube stove hands down.

 

[troy-pit]

After going through this process I have learned a lot. For one you got to be careful with the clearances particularly the back wall and also the height and side clearances. Most stoves just do not fit. The blaze king scirocco/ashford just barely fit but not really. I guess I could of made it fit but the back wall clearance was right on the edge. I decided to go with the pacific energy Newcastle. This has much more generous clearance requirements except for the height but I built my alcove with plenty of height to spare.

Oh also I see you are in north seattle. I am in Everett. I was also concerned about the blaze king smoking in the shoulder seasons of pacific northwest. I have read of other pnw users having issues with blaze kings smoking. Sure this is debateable and not trying to start a flame war but the bottom line is a pacific energy will be more forgiving in the shoulder seasons which in seattle seems like the entire winter.

 

[begreen]

Good point to watch clearances, the ceiling height one often is a gotcha. Most stoves (but not all) require 84" ceiling height for an alcove. If the walls have combustible materials that needs to be taken into consideration. If the walls are entirely non-combustible then the side and back clearances are not an issue.

 

[troy-pit]

Well with me the big issue is the back clearance. I have high ceilings and to run the stove up the alcove you only got 2 inches for the front of the pipe to the wall. Then you are left with only about 15 inches from the center of the pipe to the back wall.

 

[iron]

the basement ceiling is 90" from concrete to a header at the alcove. do you need 84" from top of stove to ceiling?

in the north/south direction, if the stove would need to protrude from the alcove a bit, that's not an issue. the face to face of concrete is 30". i think that should stay about the same after i insulate and re-frame walls, but haven't thought through that in enough detail yet.

 

[begreen]

84" or 7' ceiling height - from the floor, not stove top. If there are more questions, draw up a sketch with dimensions and post it along with a photo or two.

 

[Rickb]

I did almost the same set-up. I used the Sirocco 20. It not only keeps the basement a nice 75-78F no matter how cold it is outside, it gets 6 - 8 hours of heat per load, and the main floor heat rarely runs when the stove is going.

I did a fake fire place using metal studs, cement board, then stone work. I used roxul on the outer wall. Its been 3 years now and I love it. Could not imagine not having it.

 

[Chap]

Not to hijack this thread, but Rickb that is a very nice set-up. I like the fireplace look you did.

 

[kennyp2339]

if $$$ isn't really the issue I would go with the BK over NC30, just for ease of use, the NC30 is a great stove but I don't know how it will handle all the soft woods over your way, I could see that thing really taking off and roasting you out of your basement. The BK can be turned way down causing a slow steady burn with either soft or hard woods, you just turn you t-stat to your desired level, then sit back and relax. If you want to see flames you just turn your t-stat up a little.

 

[Highbeam]

I was also concerned about the blaze king smoking in the shoulder seasons of pacific northwest. I have read of other pnw users having issues with blaze kings smoking. Sure this is debateable and not trying to start a flame war but the bottom line is a pacific energy will be more forgiving in the shoulder seasons which in seattle seems like the entire winter.

I get tons of smoke from my BK. Like a freight train during start up and then it slowly blues and then goes clear within the hour for the duration of a 30 hour cycle. Contrasted with the NC30 (and I assume your PE noncat) which is smoke free very quickly. Within 10 minutes. Same wood, same day, etc. The non-cats just get clean emissions quicker than a cat stove can get up to clean burning cat temps. The tradeoff is the very low efficiency and poor control of a non-cat. In the Puget sound we have a stupid clean air agency that seems to think that you must be under 20% opacity (nearly clear emissions) within 20 minutes of startup of reload. That is VERY difficult to do in a BK.

I own and run both the NC30 and the BK princess. They are both very good stoves that burn softwood very well. For heating a home, no doubt about it, you want the BK. Nothing comes close to the BK for burn times. 30 freaking hours with softwood. Not only is it burning while I sleep, it burns all the way through my shift at work the next day until I reload it again at night for the next 24 hour cycle. For non-retired people that are away from the house all day and want to heat their house with wood, the BK line is ideal.

For heating my 1800 SF shop, I use the NC30. It is a tank of a stove. Big, cheap, high output, clean burning (way cleaner than the BK) and not sensitive to wood quality. It will burn shop scraps. I run that bugger really hot all the time. It only burns a few hours per load when it's working hard.

 

[iron]

highbeam,

i assume you're out in a rural area. are you subject to a lot of burn bans? i think last winter, we only had one, but it was a stage 1 ban in king county. i think in surrounding counties, it was stage 2. our stove/fireplace will never be our primary heat source, so we won't have that exemption.

does the BK do the freight train every reload, or just when it's starting cold? if you were to reload, say, at 12 hour intervals, would that alleviate it?

re: the nc-30: would the 6" duravent i originally linked to work for that stove?

 

[Highbeam]

highbeam,

i assume you're out in a rural area. are you subject to a lot of burn bans? i think last winter, we only had one, but it was a stage 1 ban in king county. i think in surrounding counties, it was stage 2. our stove/fireplace will never be our primary heat source, so we won't have that exemption.

does the BK do the freight train every reload, or just when it's starting cold? if you were to reload, say, at 12 hour intervals, would that alleviate it?

re: the nc-30: would the 6" duravent i originally linked to work for that stove?

I do live in a fairly rural area but within walking distance of city limits. Large lots, few trees, in Pierce county. We have burn bans all too often and they are pretty stupid due to the countywide nature of them. The folks that call the bans do so based on measured air quality at low elevations in the urban areas. Those of us far away and above the clouds have clear air.

This exemption from burn bans for wood being your only source of heat doesn't actually work for anyone anymore. They made it impossible. You need to apply for that exemption before the bans and every year after. If you don't show progress towards a clean source of heat then they don't give you the exemption and then you get the 1000$ fine for burning.

The BK "freight trains" especially bad from a cold start, less from a hot reload but to reload on 12 hour intervals is really weird for a BK since you will really like the 24 hour cycles. I use 12 hour cycles when it is in the single digits outside, reload in the dark mostly.

It smokes most when the thermostat is open and it is trying to heat up. Over the course of the entire load of wood it may smoke less than a non-cat because you don't have to reload it very often. Member @Poindexter burns a BK in a similarly restrictive area and made great efforts to reduce that warm up smoke. The princess emissions is about 2.4 gph and the NC30 is really low, like 0.7 or something but dumps lots of heat up the stack.

Both stoves are designed for 6" chimney. I use simpson class A pipe for both.

 

[iron]

so then you shut down operations completely during a burn ban?

 

[begreen]

The folks that call the bans do so based on measured air quality at low elevations in the urban areas. Those of us far away and above the clouds have clear air.

Our geography creates a bowl between the Cascades and the Olympics. In a temperature inversion, which is when burn bans are usually called, warm air aloft and cold air below causes smoke to descend from higher locations into valleys and the Puget Sound basin below. Unless one lives above about 6000', smoke can and will contribute to the soup we all breathe during an inversion.

 

[Highbeam]

Our geography creates a bowl between the Cascades and the Olympics. In a temperature inversion, which is when burn bans are usually called, warm air aloft and cold air below causes smoke to descend from higher locations into valleys and the Puget Sound basin below. Unless one lives above about 6000', smoke can and will contribute to the soup we all breathe during an inversion.

False, it's more like above 500'. The folks down low are in the soup. Further, it's not that all of the smoke runs down from high elevations to low elevations, it is that the enormous amount of smoke generated in those low elevations can't escape.

 

[iron]

question about the alcove heat retaining opportunities:

i know with the upstairs fireplace (northstar ZC), the masonry captures a ton of heat and will stay warm for many hours after the coals have died out. obviously, this fireplace is built into and more or less touching the masonry, so that helps a ton.

but, in an alcove surround, if you place masonry all around the stove, especially above it, would you be able to retain a lot of heat? just wondering if the nc-30 could work in that regard.

the idea of having a stove box with a black window the whole time isn't very appealing to me. i like the idea of 24hr burns and low, steady heat. but it seems like a sacrifice on the aesthetics. i know that i'm still new to the wood burning world, so maybe that effect will wear off over time, but what's the point of a glass window if it's dirty the whole time?

 

[begreen]

False, it's more like above 500'. The folks down low are in the soup. Further, it's not that all of the smoke runs down from high elevations to low elevations, it is that the enormous amount of smoke generated in those low elevations can't escape.

You're right, my estimate was high, I should have looked it up. We look out at the mountains and when there is a bad inversion layer you can see the smog going up the slope of Rainier about 1/4 the way up. The inversion varies with the weather system. 500ft is low. 1000-2000' appears to be more normal though it can go higher.
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-inversion-tightens-its-grip.html

 

[Highbeam]

You're right, my estimate was high, I should have looked it up. We look out at the mountains and when there is a bad inversion layer you can see the smog going up the slope of Rainier about 1/4 the way up. The inversion varies with the weather system. 500ft is low. 1000-2000' appears to be more normal though it can go higher.
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-inversion-tightens-its-grip.html

Elevation of the top of the cloud deck is not the same as the elevation of the pollution that meets the threshold. Note that most of the monitoring stations used are down near sea level. It's a stupid system. Transportation pollution is a large source of the particulate being measured and the freeways and ports spew this out at low elevations where it stays.