Blaze King Princess Insert - Inside Mount Adapter

[MchEngNrd]

I'm planning to install an insert in a prefab fireplace. I've picked out a Blaze King Princess, because I'd like to have the long, slow burn times -- winter is pretty moderate where I'm at in New Mexico. At 2400 sq ft, I don't want to move to the smaller inserts (Ashford & Sirocco).

Long story short, the Princess Insert will fit in perfectly, leaving no gap on the sides and only about 1-11/16" up top (see drawing attached). The liner will barely clear once the stove is pushed fully in. Therein lies the issue -- I see no obvious way of installing the liner. Moreover, the dealer installers don't want to do this job (probably want a job with guaranteed fitment), otherwise I'd be happy to let them.

The princess doesn't come with a removable collar that can be installed from the inside. However, I've seen "Inside Stove Adapters" that claim to do this. See attached picture and this link: https://firesidechimneysupply.com/inside-mount-stove-adapter.html

Anyone have experience with these? Are there any other tricks for installing a stove with tight clearances?

Thanks in advance!
-Jeff

 

[bholler]

I'm planning to install an insert in a prefab fireplace. I've picked out a Blaze King Princess, because I'd like to have the long, slow burn times -- winter is pretty moderate where I'm at in New Mexico. At 2400 sq ft, I don't want to move to the smaller inserts (Ashford & Sirocco).

Long story short, the Princess Insert will fit in perfectly, leaving no gap on the sides and only about 1-11/16" up top (see drawing attached). The liner will barely clear once the stove is pushed fully in. Therein lies the issue -- I see no obvious way of installing the liner. Moreover, the dealer installers don't want to do this job (probably want a job with guaranteed fitment), otherwise I'd be happy to let them.

The princess doesn't come with a removable collar that can be installed from the inside. However, I've seen "Inside Stove Adapters" that claim to do this. See attached picture and this link: https://firesidechimneysupply.com/inside-mount-stove-adapter.html

Anyone have experience with these? Are there any other tricks for installing a stove with tight clearances?

Thanks in advance!
-Jeff

What model fireplace are you planning on installing this insert into?

 

[MchEngNrd]

What model fireplace are you planning on installing this insert into?

A Majestic ESF-IIB. I had a couple installers at my house already, and they said it looks good. Picture attached. It's a bit discolored, but that's not rust (in case you're wondering).

Edit: It has a UL tag on it.

 

[bholler]

A Majestic ESF-IIB. I had a couple installers at my house already, and they said it looks good. Picture attached. It's a bit discolored, but that's not rust (in case you're wondering).

Edit: It has a UL tag on it.

Do you have the manual for it? The up tag means nothing once you take parts off to install the insert it is no longer listed because parts are missing.


The only way you will be allowed to do it legally is if the fireplace manual says it is ok.

 

[MchEngNrd]

Do you have the manual for it? The up tag means nothing once you take parts off to install the insert it is no longer listed because parts are missing.


The only way you will be allowed to do it legally is if the fireplace manual says it is ok.

I'll have to see if I can dig it up. It's probably buried in with a bunch of old documents.

Assuming the manual says it's alright, I'm still interested in the question above. Anyone have experience with the inside mount stove adapters? Does this fall under their intended use?

 

[bholler]

I'll have to see if I can dig it up. It's probably buried in with a bunch of old documents.

Assuming the manual says it's alright, I'm still interested in the question above. Anyone have experience with the inside mount stove adapters? Does this fall under their intended use?

I am 99% sure it doesn't say it is alright.

 

[MchEngNrd]

I am 99% sure it doesn't say it is alright.

Ok, I'll see what I find.

I think the adapter looks pretty promising, could be a nice solution for people with my situation. I'm wondering if someone's tried it on a Blaze King before?

 

[bholler]

Ok, I'll see what I find.

I think the adapter looks pretty promising, could be a nice solution for people with my situation. I'm wondering if someone's tried it on a Blaze King before?

I
The vast majority of people in your situation are considering an untested unapproved install that violates code. There are only a couple of pretty modern prefab fireplaces that allow inserts

 

[MchEngNrd]

Ok thanks, I understand your concerns. I plan to check the manual, and discuss with the county inspector before I proceed.

Anyone have experience with the adapter? What are these adapters intended for? Do these things hold the liner on securely?

 

[MchEngNrd]

Looks like Century sells a similar option with their inserts:

http://files.century-heating.com/upload/images/accessoires/manuels/drolet/liner-attachment-system_Manual_002.pdf

 

[BKVP]

bholler is correct, but it goes beyond the manual. Often, Factory Built Fireplaces are done by homeowners. Once you ascertain if it's approved by the fireplace mfg, you should also make certain the fireplace was properly installed. Also, if any modifications were made, such as removing refractory, the the safety listing won't apply.

Our inserts work great in FBF's when approved, installed correctly and unmodified.

Incidentally our SC25 has a removable flue adapter that is connected inside the firebox.

BKVP

 

[MchEngNrd]

bholler is correct, but it goes beyond the manual. Often, Factory Built Fireplaces are done by homeowners. Once you ascertain if it's approved by the fireplace mfg, you should also make certain the fireplace was properly installed. Also, if any modifications were made, such as removing refractory, the the safety listing won't apply.

Our inserts work great in FBF's when approved, installed correctly and unmodified.

Incidentally our SC25 has a removable flue adapter that is connected inside the firebox.

BKVP

Thanks for the advice! Everything looks sound, to my untrained eye, but I should have a sweep come out and take a look.

I only removed the smoke shelf, door, and damper (4 screws total). I've seen Quadrafire manuals that offer guidance here, giving a list of removable parts (smoke shelf, door, damper, external trim, etc.). I'm not sure what falls under 'cannot be modified' for Blaze King. Probably difficult to make blanket statements?

I saw the SC25 has a removable flue collar. Definitely a handy feature; I wish the princess had this built in. I think the SC25 might be a little small for my house (2400 sq ft, high ceilings), which is why I'm leaning toward the princess.

I'm guessing Blaze King doesn't have explicit guidance on these inside-mount stove adapters. It would probably categorically fall under the liner system. If so, it would be just like any other liner part (elbow, adapter, offset box, etc.), and is fine if properly installed -- which gets to the heart of the question in the original post. Can't tell if this falls under intended use.

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the advice! Everything looks sound, to my untrained eye, but I should have a sweep come out and take a look.

I only removed the smoke shelf, door, and damper (4 screws total). I've seen Quadrafire manuals that offer guidance here, giving a list of removable parts (smoke shelf, door, damper, external trim, etc.). I'm not sure what falls under 'cannot be modified' for Blaze King. Probably difficult to make blanket statements?

I saw the SC25 has a removable flue collar. Definitely a handy feature; I wish the princess had this built in. I think the SC25 might be a little small for my house (2400 sq ft, high ceilings), which is why I'm leaning toward the princess.

I'm guessing Blaze King doesn't have explicit guidance on these inside-mount stove adapters. It would probably categorically fall under the liner system. If so, it would be just like any other liner part (elbow, adapter, offset box, etc.), and is fine if properly installed -- which gets to the heart of the question in the original post. Can't tell if this falls under intended use.

It doesn't matter what the stove manual says you can do to someone else's ul listed appliance. What matters is the fireplace manual. Unless it says you can remove those parts and maintain the listing you can't do it.

And bkvp is right many fireplaces were not installed correctly to start with. BTW he is VP of blazeking

 

[webby3650]

bholler is correct, but it goes beyond the manual. Often, Factory Built Fireplaces are done by homeowners. Once you ascertain if it's approved by the fireplace mfg, you should also make certain the fireplace was properly installed. Also, if any modifications were made, such as removing refractory, the the safety listing won't apply.

Our inserts work great in FBF's when approved, installed correctly and unmodified.

Incidentally our SC25 has a removable flue adapter that is connected inside the firebox.

BKVP

I’m curious. If almost no pre-fabs allow for inserts to be installed, or allow it as long no modifications are done, (which is pretty much impossible) why would BK put the time and money into testing to make it ZC approved?

 

[begreen]

The argument I have heard is that modern ZCs from the big shops are now accepting inserts in their manuals. This seems to be true, but it doesn't explain why since the 90s stove companies have been listing in their manuals that their inserts are ok for ZC installs. The only explanation I have heard is that litigation is driving the conversation. I know of some respectable stove shops in our area that have been installing approved inserts (typically Lopis) in ZCs during the past decades. They do good work and take pride in it. I asked a couple shop owners if they have ever had an issue with these installations and they said none except the occasional homeowner that is new to wood burning and had to be shown how to burn properly with dry wood. But that happens with all their stoves, not just inserts in a ZC fireplace. The next time I am in a good stove shop I will ask what criteria they use to determine whether to install or not in these prefabs.

 

[bholler]

I’m curious. If almost no pre-fabs allow for inserts to be installed, or allow it as long no modifications are done, (which is pretty much impossible) why would BK put the time and money into testing to make it ZC approved?

Because there is money to be made selling stoves for this purpose and the instructions clearly have enough cya statements in them to protect the manufacturer. The liability will fall squarely on the installers shoulders.

 

[bholler]

And yes as bg said many newer fireplaces do allow for inserts.

 

[MchEngNrd]

Bholler is probably right. Liability probably falls on whoever is at fault, erring toward the installer. I haven't found my the manual from my prefab, but the default statement for Majestic in the same era is "Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or other products not specified for use with this fireplace." I've seen bholler bring this up in other posts. Whether or not an insert designed for prefabs is 'specified' for use in the fireplace is perhaps an open question, but not much to stand on in court (don't think you'd win that one).

To begreen's point, some people/installers probably decide the risk is diminishingly small, provided the insert is designed for zero-clearance units. The conversation seems to be oriented toward liability, not safety, per se. UL-127 looks pretty stressing compared to an insert.

 

[bholler]

Bholler is probably right. Liability probably falls on whoever is at fault, erring toward the installer. I haven't found my the manual from my prefab, but the default statement for Majestic in the same era is "Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or other products not specified for use with this fireplace." I've seen bholler bring this up in other posts. Whether or not an insert designed for prefabs is 'specified' for use in the fireplace is perhaps an open question, but not much to stand on in court (don't think you'd win that one).

To begreen's point, some people/installers probably decide the risk is diminishingly small, provided the insert is designed for zero-clearance units. The conversation seems to be oriented toward liability, not safety, per se. UL-127 looks pretty stressing compared to an insert.

We simply don't know on the safety side of things. In most zc units that are installed correctly it is probably perfectly safe. But because the fireplace was never designed or tested to support the weight or handle the full time burning associated with an insert we just don't know. Because of that and the liability issues I will never install an insert in a zc unless both units are ok with it.

To me it just isn't worth the risk to my customer or worth opening myself up to that liability.

 

[webby3650]

I aware of all of this, I was asking BKs input from a manufacturers standpoint.

The reason ZC manufactures don’t allow it is because they’ve simply never tested for it. Why would they? There’s no money in it, they sell fireplaces, not inserts...

 

[BKVP]

I aware of all of this, I was asking BKs input from a manufacturers standpoint.

The reason ZC manufactures don’t allow it is because they’ve simply never tested for it. Why would they? There’s no money in it, they sell fireplaces, not inserts...

The largest contribution to the attitude change is the result of industry consolidation. When a fireplace manufacturer winds up being purchased by a stove company (or vice versa), there has been a shift to approving wood inserts for use in manufactured fireplaces.

Webby is correct, if a manufacturer only makes fireplaces, why would they experience the cost of safety testing for use with a wood insert. On the other hand, if the same manufacturer also has a division that manufacturers wood inserts, then the testing makes sense.

Let's face it, some people will take shortcuts. I have seen where standoffs have been removed because the installer did not want to relocate a wall stud. While completely unacceptable when used as a fireplace, the higher exhaust temps of a wood insert make this a potential disaster.

Incidentally, recently the topic of fireplaces being EPA exempt has come up. In fact, EPA in the 2015 rule defined a "fireplace". A product that meets the definition does not require emissions testing. However, if the product does not meet all the conditions, it is consider a wood heater and must be emissions tested.

Here are the conditions:

1) It must have a safety label and must be operated with door fully open. A safety screen is permitted.
2) If the safety label permits the unit to be operated with doors closed, there can be no user controls for flue or damper, essentially a single burn rate appliance.
3) The viewing area must be 500 or more sq inches.
4) Marketed a aesthetic enjoyment, may not publish Btu's, heat output, efficiency etc. This goes for brochures, websites, Point of purchase etc.

So you can have two products side by side in a retail showroom and if one of the two has the ability to adjust the burn rate, it is not a "fireplace" but a wood heater.

 

[MchEngNrd]

Your points make me wonder if testing actually occurs? There's no UL rating that I'm aware of. The fireplace manufacturer could make a unit and put an 'insert approved' label on it, especially other requirements (UL 127) are more stressing than an insert. It's not like there's some sort of 'standard' insert they can put in the prefab fireplace. It could just be basic design criteria (e.g., ability to support 300 lb of weight).

One can imagine that, in an extreme limit, the design doesn't really need to change at all, and it's just a matter of what the manufacturer decided to put in the manual -- i.e., do they have a division that makes inserts.

 

[webby3650]

One can imagine that, in an extreme limit, the design doesn't really need to change at all, and it's just a matter of what the manufacturer decided to put in the manual -- i.e., do they have a division that makes inserts.

That pretty much sums it up.
Most manufacturers have ZC approved inserts, almost no ZC fireplaces allow it, if they do its only a specific unit that they manufacture. The responsibility lies on the installer, and manufacturers know this. If they actually expected their units to only be installed in “approved” units, they would have never spent the money on safety testing to be ZC approved.

 

[BKVP]

Your points make me wonder if testing actually occurs? There's no UL rating that I'm aware of. The fireplace manufacturer could make a unit and put an 'insert approved' label on it, especially other requirements (UL 127) are more stressing than an insert. It's not like there's some sort of 'standard' insert they can put in the prefab fireplace. It could just be basic design criteria (e.g., ability to support 300 lb of weight).

One can imagine that, in an extreme limit, the design doesn't really need to change at all, and it's just a matter of what the manufacturer decided to put in the manual -- i.e., do they have a division that makes inserts.

So to be 100% clear, U.L. is a testing agency. There are at least 4-5 other agencies that test safety for the fireplace industry. U.L. just happens to be more readily know because their labs test thousands of products.

If a stove manufacturer wish to state in their Owners Manual that a wood insert may be inserted into a factory built fireplace, there is most definitely a safety test for approval. We have had the test done many times. If a stove manufacturer then publishes in the Owners Manual that the unit may be installed into a factory built fireplace (established from testing), then all conditions established during the test for the factory built fireplace must then apply to all installations. This applies to liners, clearances, floor protection etc.

A stove manufacturer cannot tell in advance if the insert they manufacture and promote as being Factory built fireplace compatible will be installed into a masonry fireplace or a FBF. Therefore, once it is published as being suitable for use in a FBF, all conditions apply to all installations.

Clear as mud?

 

[bholler]

So to be 100% clear, U.L. is a testing agency. There are at least 4-5 other agencies that test safety for the fireplace industry. U.L. just happens to be more readily know because their labs test thousands of products.

If a stove manufacturer wish to state in their Owners Manual that a wood insert may be inserted into a factory built fireplace, there is most definitely a safety test for approval. We have had the test done many times. If a stove manufacturer then publishes in the Owners Manual that the unit may be installed into a factory built fireplace (established from testing), then all conditions established during the test for the factory built fireplace must then apply to all installations. This applies to liners, clearances, floor protection etc.

A stove manufacturer cannot tell in advance if the insert they manufacture and promote as being Factory built fireplace compatible will be installed into a masonry fireplace or a FBF. Therefore, once it is published as being suitable for use in a FBF, all conditions apply to all installations.

Clear as mud?

Wouldn't it also have to be in the fireplace and chimney that the insert was tested in?

Do all of the other labs test to ul standards or do they have their own?