Building home, love open fireplace, may use insert, need advice

[williemon]

That about says it. I have used open fireplaces for the last 19 years in the two places I have lived in in the south east US. First was an apartment. It worked good to heat up the 600sq ft place but the draft effect was huge. Granted, I knew nothing at that time, but I could heat my living space to comfort, but when you hit the bedroom, it was freezing.

In my current 1400sq ft house I bought new about 16 years ago, I have a heatalator brand 42" open fireplace. I use it for heat some these days (have kids) but back when, I used it for most of my heat. I have two outside air kits on it but no fans. It does well with little draft effect while in use. Once it burns out to embes, I close the glass but keep the OAK open. Next morning, there are drafts comming in from the flue and OAK so I close them up.

I have always loved the smell of the wood, I love hearing the crackling and watching the flames, roasting marshmellows and sometimes cooking in it.

Now im building a 3400sq ft home, two story with two stoy great room where the firelace will be. Im concernd with the ability to keep the large room (an downstairs for that matter) warm to my liking withut huge heatpump bills (total elect). Since I will have a fireplace but do not like a free standing stove, I wondered if an insert would be the ticket? Many say they wll heat better. The builder has provided for a majestic 42" fireplace in the build but I wondered if I should upgrade to an insert now.

Can the insert be used at times with the glass open? If it is closed, do you still hear the sounds and enjoy some of the smells? I now some dont like a strong smoke smell and I dont either, but a lttle wisp is nice t the nose. If I stuck with the open fireplace and used two OAK at the location of the firebox, would it then not pull my heated inside air up the chiminey?

Any advice would be good. Cost is a big concern but looks and large viewing out cooks cost. I see the Jotul C550 looks nice and is well thought of. What other brands and models might I look at that will provide good looks and large viewing?

If I cant swng the cost of the insert, what brands or models of open fireplace seem to perform better than others?

Thanks

 

[begreen]

Don't let the builder sell you on the Majestic. Put in a high-quality, high-efficiency, ZC fireplace instead that lets you have your cake and eat it. It won't heat the whole barn when it's zero outside, that's a lot of sq ftg. But it will be a much more practical expenditure than a builder fireplace. If you couple it with a tight house and a extra efficient heat pump (don't scrimp here), then you should be a happy customer in the end.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Don't skimp on insulation.
Go insert, or a nice hearth and full standing stove if you want to heat.
Where down south are you? (It's all relative- down south to me is anywhere south of CT, including NYC)
Some places, if it's fairly open concept, you can get away with a good insert. Up here, for 3400 sq ft- you need some powah.

 

[Jags]

Find the biggest dang insert you can get your hands on and then build the fireplace to accommodate. 3400 sqft will be pretty much impossible to heat with a single unit, so consider this a space heater.

 

[Fsappo]

Don't let the builder sell you on the Majestic. Put in a high-quality, high-efficiency, ZC insert instead that lets you have your cake and eat it. It won't heat the whole barn when it's zero outside, that's a lot of sq ftg. But it will be a much more practical expenditure than a builder fireplace. If you couple it with a tight house and a extra efficient heat pump (don't scrimp here), then you should be a happy customer in the end.

Do exactly what BG said.

 

[brianbeech]

I've never used one, but I sure like the looks of the Morso 5660: http://www.morsona.com/index.php/inserts/morso-5660-standard.html

They have one with the blower model, but even those won't heat all the square footage you mention.

 

[begreen]

We constantly get people here asking about installing an insert in a POS builder's fireplace that they try for a few years to make work. Why waste the money? Put in a big Kozy, RSF, FPX, and enjoy heat from the get go.

 

[Jags]

We constantly get people here asking about installing an insert in a POS builder's fireplace that they try for a few years to make work. Why waste the money? Put in a big Kozy, RSF, FPX, and enjoy heat from the get go.

^^^Yeah, yeah - what he said.^^^^

Most bang for your buck.

 

[Got Wood]

Check out the FPX 44

http://www.fireplacex.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=96#Documents

 

[williemon]

I note that in one instruction manual I looked at it said not to operate unless the doors are closed. Is this true for all models and brands? Is that set in stone as in they dont draw properly unless the door is closed? I ask this since if I choose an insert then I would lose the ability to roast marshmellows. Odd I know but the kids love it. Im also so used to an open fireplace.

Lets take the heating aspect out of it for a moment. If I dont desire to heat the room with the fireplace, would using plenty of OAKs solve the issue with my heated inside being sent up the chiminey?

Still on the fence here. I may choose for the fireplace to be purely for looks and some cozy hearth time.

 

[HollowHill]

Understand your love of fireplaces. Have one of my own. Check out Rumford fireplaces on the internet. Rumford is a style of fireplace invented back in the late 1700s by an expat American inventor that maximizes heat output by a very specific set of building instructions. There is also someone who manufactures the components of the fireplace, getting the correct angles and size, etc, that also, I believe has a glass door that slides up into the wall when an open fire is desired and closes when not desired.

 

[SPhill]

Now im building a 3400sq ft home, two story with two stoy great room where the firelace will be. Im concernd with the ability to keep the large room (an downstairs for that matter) warm to my liking withut huge heatpump bills (total elect)......

.......if I choose an insert then I would lose the ability to roast marshmellows. Odd I know but the kids love it. Im also so used to an open fireplace

Thanks

Decisions, decisions!

I agree with Jags: choose a very good, oversized insert and build the hearth/chimney around it. I did this and the insert augments and minimizes the heat pump usage very well. My insert came with a wire screen cassette to replace the glass; for crackling and all that good stuff. We stopped using it years ago -- all of the same problems as an open fireplace -- and of course, that doesn't allow marshmellow roasting.

Have you considered an insert inside and putting a fire-pit out back for traditional round-the-fire activities? The lower electric bill buys a lot of marshmellows. :lol:

ps. With new construction, why not install a real outside air feed pipe to the stove inlet rather than an OAK?

 

[williemon]

Im really leaning toward the insert now. I do like having the ability to have a fire in it and the door be open. That would be fine in several instances when the outside temp is mild as it is lots here in the south east. I also like the of the sealed unit and burning with the dor closed on the colder nights and weekends

What is this about the inlet air vs an OAK? I thought they are the same thing?

What brands look good, have large windows and can operate open or closed?

 

[Hiram Maxim]

Check out the FPX 44

http://www.fireplacex.com/product_guide/detail.aspx?id=96#Documents

A family friend has that model and it works really well for him. He goes through about 8 full cords a year. (but his wood isn't so seasoned)

 

[SPhill]

What is this about the inlet air vs an OAK? I thought they are the same thing?

The terminology gets a little fuzzy. I thought you were referring to a through-the-wall air supply like the one on this page: Condar Air Supply This just diffuses air into the room -- sort of like leaving a window open.

A real outside air supply ducts the combustion air directly to the stove inlet in a sealed pipe. No cold air enters the living space and no warm air is taken from the living space. You can do this easily in new construction.

Can the insert be used at times with the glass open?

Yes, with a very small fire. Anything larger and it will roar like freight train.

If it is closed, do you still hear the sounds and enjoy some of the smells?

Unfortuately no, just the visuals. But you do see ghostly, dancing blue secondaries that you will never see in an open fire.

 

[williemon]

I just looked at the napoleon nz3000 Very nice. It had a double door on it that you could open up and use the unit like an open fireplace. You cold buy optional screens for it as well. I want a double door. It is too much money though. What are some other good brands that offer that?

 

[SPhill]

A real outside air supply ducts the combustion air directly to the stove inlet in a sealed pipe. No cold air enters the living space and no warm air is taken from the living space. You can do this easily in new construction.

While stacking my stove tonight, it occured to me that in most stoves only the primary air can be drawn with an outside air duct. My stove and that nice Napoleon NZ3000 (as well as many others) have a secondary fire chamber with a separate air inlet that draws from room air. So in most stoves it's only the primary air that can be drawn from outside. Just wanted to clarify that.

At any rate, that Napoleon NZ3000 sure looks like it would meet your needs very well. Too bad it's kinda pricey :-S

 

[williemon]

I have looked at other too. I noticed that some in their owners manual states to keep doors closed during operation, however, the brochures state that you can burn them open and include options for screens. Are all the fireplaces like that? I assume if you had a single door, you would need to remove the door in order to burn open.

Does anyone have an recommendations on brands they would have on their shortlist that could be burned while open and that with doors, screen, remote blower might run below 2500.00? Perhaps I need to stay in the less than 3000.00 group? These are uninstalled prices for the units. Can I ask this or can we not talk general prices?

 

[williemon]

Didn't get any hits on my last post but here is what I have come to thus far:

I really like a ZC EPA rated fireplace. Ive looked at websites for about 17 brands ( KH, osburn, rsf,regency, hampton, VC, hearthstone, quad, lopi PE, and a few others.)

So far I seem to enjoy the offerings from (in no particular order) security bis, heat n glo, lennox, napoliean, fpx.

Those are the ones that I find an arched fireplace with. Other brands do look good, but they may have a square face, or lack visual detail im looking for. Im looking for an arched door (double preferred) with the fireplace front arched as well. I also am looking for the front to have a certain visual interest. Mostly black with raised areas, details.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how each may rate in their quality? Is there no real difference? What to compare to find out? Can they all use 1700 or 2100 pipe? Could there be any other brands I should look at?

 

[williemon]

From taking a closer look, When I factor in the cost of the unit, it will be a focal point of the house. For my tastes, and for the look of the house, it looks like Napolian and Lennox and FPX are getting the nod. Now, FPX has cat style stoves. Im thinking I do not want a cat stove, so that leaves lennox and napoliean. As I look closer, it looks like Bis is a player as well.

Bis traditions reg. and CE, lennox Montecito Estate, Napoliean 6000, 3000,nz26

Any thoughts on these fireplaces?

 

[begreen]

willie, this is an expensive purchase. Take your time and research well. There are dozens of threads on these inserts, some with excellent information. I would use the advanced search and search on the Model, like NZ6000, in the hearth forum only, and search ALL? for the date range.

I would also make a list of all the features that are important to you and then rate them 1-5. Then list the fireplaces you are interested in and give them a score based on your ratings. Also, pay attention to posts about issues that have popped up with some units. Ask your dealer about them.

Finally, you mention fun family things like roasting marshmellows. Besides having a fireplace that drafts well, some of this is just common sense. If you build a short fire with a few logs and then let it burn down, you can roast marshmellows over it, even in a freestanding stove. No, the mfg. is not going to condone it, because there is too much risk of human error or stupidity and they don't want the liability for some fool burning themselves while doing this.

For starters, here are some interesting threads to read:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/8074/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/8188/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/10938/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/39321/

 

[Beetle-Kill]

I've not seen any suggestions concerning a tall, narrow masonry heater. If this is new construction, get the architect to explore one of those, then have a secondary pretty stove for the ambiance.

 

[williemon]

Thanks for the threads. Yes, this is an expensive purchase and I dont want to rush, however, building of this house is starting. He said that I can get another fireplace but that I would need to get it decided upon rather quickly once they get the foundation finished so there is no lag time to hold them up. Resources in my area are very limited.

I will keep researchng.

 

[Beetle-Kill]

Tell him BS on his time frame. You have the choice on whether this project goes forward or not. New construction is down, and people are hungry, so they'll deal with delays. Your basic foundation line won't be affected by a central masonry heater. Interior design, probably, but I don't have prints on your place. Artichokes, er, I mean architects, love to see their vision fulfilled, regardless. We just had tubing formed to meet the requirements of the artichoke, cost the homeowner another $3K because of 1" of material. And you'll never be able to see the difference, vs. available material. Take your time. JB

 

[begreen]

Have to agree, don't let yourself get pushed into a rush decision or you will be spending the money again in a few years. All they need to know now is the fireplace goes here. Tell them you will have a decision in a few days and to work on something else. There's plenty to do in new construction. They can wait a little here.