Calling All Napoleon NZ6000 Owners

[builderbob]

How have you liked your Napoleon NZ 6000 High Country woodburning fireplace?

Most liked things? Things that bug you? Satisfaction rating? Things a prospective purchaser might like or need to know? Did you use optional blower? Inside air or outside air hookup for blower? Etc etc etc.

Like to hear from some owners.

builderbob

 

[ernie]

I have sold some of these and the comments that I have heard are: good looks, good heat, hard to install with many unusual requirements, glass gets very dirty quickly. You must install with steel studs and cement board and need to ventilate the front of the fireplace inside the house at the bottoma and top of the unit. This is not shown very well in the installation manual. Do NOT install the blower to the outside, there is no backdraft and you will get cold winter winds in the house when not using it. I know, I have a customer that did the outside blower option and bricked it in with no other way to change it without tearing out thousands of dollars of masonryand is very unhappy. Blower does not come with a varible speed control.

I would consider looking at the FPX44 Elite also, its in the same class with some advantages over the NZ6000

 

[builderbob]

Thanks for the response. What has been your experience as to parts quality, and repairs needed on NZ6000, if any yet?

As to ventilating the fireplace cavity, I wonder if it has to be the "front" of the cavity? We are considering an interior "peninsula"---front, one side, and back of fireplace module would be interior. This "peninsula would be a divider between living room and dining room. The fourth side would be an exterior wall.

In such case I wonder why we couldn't do the cavity ventilator grills on the "back" wall of the module, or on the one (interior) side wall, if we so opted?

Thanks for mentioning about the blower fan--did not know it was not a variable speed fan. We would do an interior install of the blower, but I would like to be able to select a less than highspeed setting on it.

The steel studs and cement board are clearly mentioned in the Napoleon install manual. I do not think they are a big deal if planned for as part of house construction. Just the studs right by the edge of front fireplace doors, and the header over the doors, and on ceiling over the front doors must be steel. Side and back wall studs of fireplace cavity do not have to be steel per the install manual.

One other thing I picked up on from the install manual, Napoleon recommends insulating the two 6" cold air intake flex ducts (combustion air) in cold climates. But it does not supply insulated ducts--it supplies non-insulated. The owner must figure out how to insulate the ducts on his own. I noted, for comparison, in the Lennox Montecito Estate manual, the supplied 4" flex duct for cold air intake (combustion air) is supplied as an already insulated duct. And their manual clearly instructs in detail how to install that insulated cold air intake duct. One up for Lennox vs Napoleon.

As to the Napoleon dirtying glass, I am uncertain how to judge on that----how is the owner(s) burning his(their) fires? That could have an effect on the rate of the glass dirtying.

Thanks for your experience on this model. How many different owners have you heard from on this model---how many have you sold---how old now is the first one you sold?

builderbob

 

[builderbob]

Speaking of glass doors getting dirty quickly, seems I saw some comments in some thread or other, that smoked up doors is perhaps one of the occupational hazards of zc woodburners, whatever brand. Maybe some get dirty slower than others.

But I presume we will need to be cleaning the glass from time to time regardless of what brand/model we end up with.

Any good prodcedures/products/ways of operating the unit to improve the glass cleaning process, or lessen the frequency of needing to do it?

Thanks,
builderbob---still in looking mode to find our "best" fireplace

 

[jqgs214]

From my limited experience, hotter fires will lessen soot build up on the glass, also make sure the gaskets are sealing properly on the doors.

 

[builderbob]

Another thing that gives me reservations about the NZ 6000, is Napoleon lists it as EPA exempt. I see most of the rest of Napoleon's product line, they went ahead and met the EPA Certified requirements as to emissions. So, it's not like Napoleon doesn't have the experience and knowledge on building something to meet EPA Certified specs.

Makes you wonder why with the NZ 6000, they went the "exempt" route. And they don't give the results of any independent (non-EPA) emissions tests either, so one knows how clean (or not) they burn.

Leaves me thinking it isn't such a clean burner. Probably can't be sold in a state like Washington with a 4.5 gph emissions limit---unless Washington also allows the "exempt" class?

 

[Gooserider]

Another thing that gives me reservations about the NZ 6000, is Napoleon lists it as EPA exempt. I see most of the rest of Napoleon's product line, they went ahead and met the EPA Certified requirements as to emissions. So, it's not like Napoleon doesn't have the experience and knowledge on building something to meet EPA Certified specs.

Makes you wonder why with the NZ 6000, they went the "exempt" route. And they don't give the results of any independent (non-EPA) emissions tests either, so one knows how clean (or not) they burn.

Leaves me thinking it isn't such a clean burner. Probably can't be sold in a state like Washington with a 4.5 gph emissions limit---unless Washington also allows the "exempt" class?

IIRC, Tom Oyen, The Chimney Sweep in Washington recently posted a link to a discussion on his site that specifically talked about the NZ6000, (broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoexempt.htm) and how it is basically built as a "rule beater" as opposed to being an efficient heater.

Based on that article, I'd tend to take the NZ6000 off my list. Tom may have some level of mercenary interest, as he does sell stuff, and I don't think he carries Napoleon, but he has always come across here (he is an occasional poster on the hearth) as a straight shooter, and I would consider him to be one of the top tier experts on the board.

I'd keep the list down to only the EPA approved units.

Gooserider

 

[builderbob]

Yes, I saw his article and have read a bunch of articles at his website. Very good library there on lots of answers to "newbie" type questions. He also had an interesting discussion, kind of a point-counterpoint type, on outside combustion air. He linked to a woodburning.org article against outside combustion air, then point by point rebutted their arguments. Tom is a guy who obviously puts lots of care and energy into this industry. I wish his shop were in my town.

But back the the Napoleon NZ6000. I read his article about it, and wondered if he did have mercenary interest. But in looking over his website, I see he IS a Napoleon dealer. He sells lots of their stoves, and I think the NZ26 model hi-effic. But he does not sell the NZ 6000.

I have become aware that Washington not too long ago passed new emission limits on woodburners, and it is 4.5 gph. So it may very well be the NZ6000 cannot be sold in Washington at all.

Since Oregon is Washington's neighbor, and sometimes the legislators here copy what their bretheren do in our northern neighbor, I started wondering how long it might be before, the NZ6000 might be illegal here in Oregon. Now that is a somewhat powerful argument to take something off one's list! Oregon did have the Heat Smart bill on the agenda in the session of the legislature just adjourned. It would have required owners of EPA unapproved units to remove them when selling their home. It did not pass this time, but may only be a matter of time. The NZ6000 would have been a model affected. Down goes resdale vaule of homes with NZ6000's.

But the NZ6000 has a few other things regardless, that have lowered it on my list.
1) It is just too darn big. It needs 6" clearance on both sides plus room for the blower, and with our proposed floor plan, it was getting a wee bit tight in the fireplace module area.
2) It requires two -- 6" outside combustion air duct intakes, and the ones Napoleon supplies are not insulated. For something that expensive, that seemed kind of cheapo to me. Not to mention a worry about cold air infiltration (when not burning) from those huge intakes. Napoleon recommends they be insulated ducts in cold climes, but then supply the ducts uninsulated.
3)The optional blower it sells for the NZ6000, apparently (per another poster's claims) does not have a variable speed control. I'd have to verify that with Napoleon, but if true, that also seems kind of cheapo for probably the most expensive unit on the market. Plus I would wonder about the noise since the blower, if turned on, would be on at high speed---no way to adjust to lower speed.
4)And the NZ6000 IS the most expensive unit on the market.

So, what NZ6000 has going for it are 1) looks, 2) made by longstanding manufacturer whose other units seem to consistently have very good user satisfaction ratings, and 3) largest viewing area. For lots of people, that may be enough, but I don't think so for me, when those other things bother me. Plus they play the games on emissions data, so I can only assume it is also the dirtiest unit on the market.

builderbob

 

[Gooserider]

Yes, I saw his article and have read a bunch of articles at his website. Very good library there on lots of answers to "newbie" type questions. He also had an interesting discussion, kind of a point-counterpoint type, on outside combustion air. He linked to a woodburning.org article against outside combustion air, then point by point rebutted their arguments. Tom is a guy who obviously puts lots of care and energy into this industry. I wish his shop were in my town.

But back the the Napoleon NZ6000. I read his article about it, and wondered if he did have mercenary interest. But in looking over his website, I see he IS a Napoleon dealer. He sells lots of their stoves, and I think the NZ26 model hi-effic. But he does not sell the NZ 6000.

I saw he had a link to Napoleon, but didn't have them listed in some of his comparison charts - the link he had was just to the gas stuff, so I'm not sure about the wood burners. However he does seem to be somewhat fussy about what he sells, as he avoid stuff he doesn't think is good for his customers - that gets him a good bit of respect in my book.

I have become aware that Washington not too long ago passed new emission limits on woodburners, and it is 4.5 gph. So it may very well be the NZ6000 cannot be sold in Washington at all.

Since Oregon is Washington's neighbor, and sometimes the legislators here copy what their bretheren do in our northern neighbor, I started wondering how long it might be before, the NZ6000 might be illegal here in Oregon. Now that is a somewhat powerful argument to take something off one's list! Oregon did have the Heat Smart bill on the agenda in the session of the legislature just adjourned. It would have required owners of EPA unapproved units to remove them when selling their home. It did not pass this time, but may only be a matter of time. The NZ6000 would have been a model affected. Down goes resdale vaule of homes with NZ6000's.

The question would be if it was an "exempt" unit or not - my understanding is that an "EPA exempt" unit wouldn't be hit by that act of gov't hijacking, but it WOULD be effected by "burn-ban" days...

But the NZ6000 has a few other things regardless, that have lowered it on my list.

You left off what to me would be the biggest single item since I heat w/ wood, namely that it appears the NZ6000 would be a "fuel hog" according to Tom - This means that you would need to purchase and / or process every bit of wood that went into it, and that would make it's operating expense just to darn high. My smoke dragon is bad enough, one reason it's getting replaced w/ a stove that should put out about the same heating capacity, but at a much lower wood consumption rate. (I'm still wanting to have my same 7.5 cords going into the winter though, any left overs will give me a head start on the following season)

1) It is just too darn big. It needs 6" clearance on both sides plus room for the blower, and with our proposed floor plan, it was getting a wee bit tight in the fireplace module area.

Always a challenge to make it fit - ZC's are supposed to be easier than most to squeeze in, but space is still the final problem. :lol:

2) It requires two -- 6" outside combustion air duct intakes, and the ones Napoleon supplies are not insulated. For something that expensive, that seemed kind of cheapo to me. Not to mention a worry about cold air infiltration (when not burning) from those huge intakes. Napoleon recommends they be insulated ducts in cold climes, but then supply the ducts uninsulated.

That sort of makes sense to me - they obviously sell these stoves everywhere, and probably only want to have one install kit to deal with, and it is easier to insulate a non-insulated duct than it is to un-insulate one that is insulated... OTOH, that you need that much intake air says there is a problem with the design right there. My understanding is that a typical EPA woodstove uses ONE four inch duct for combustion air

3)The optional blower it sells for the NZ6000, apparently (per another poster's claims) does not have a variable speed control. I'd have to verify that with Napoleon, but if true, that also seems kind of cheapo for probably the most expensive unit on the market. Plus I would wonder about the noise since the blower, if turned on, would be on at high speed---no way to adjust to lower speed.

That claim about the blower seems odd, though they can be loud - our smoke dragon is noisy for sure. However even if it isn't variable out of the box, I'm sure you could hook up the appropriate type of control to make it so. (Just have to pick the right sort to match the motor type.)

4)And the NZ6000 IS the most expensive unit on the market.

That is certainly a factor!

So, what NZ6000 has going for it are 1) looks, 2) made by longstanding manufacturer whose other units seem to consistently have very good user satisfaction ratings, and 3) largest viewing area. For lots of people, that may be enough, but I don't think so for me, when those other things bother me. Plus they play the games on emissions data, so I can only assume it is also the dirtiest unit on the market.

builderbob

Nice list of positives, but 1) is subjective, probably others can beat it. 2) lots of other outfits can also say that 3) is probably the only one that is tough, though it sounded like you had a couple of other models on your list that were in the same general range...

I think you can do better than the NZ6000

Gooserider

 

[builderbob]

3)The optional blower it sells for the NZ6000, apparently (per another poster's claims) does not have a variable speed control. I'd have to verify that with Napoleon, but if true, that also seems kind of cheapo for probably the most expensive unit on the market. Plus I would wonder about the noise since the blower, if turned on, would be on at high speed---no way to adjust to lower speed.

That claim about the blower seems odd, though they can be loud - our smoke dragon is noisy for sure. However even if it isn't variable out of the box, I'm sure you could hook up the appropriate type of control to make it so. (Just have to pick the right sort to match the motor type.)

I think you can do better than the NZ6000

Gooserider

I should inquire directly of Napoleon Tech support on the blower "variable speed" issue. I wouldn't want to be inaccurate on stating a negative abut them. I did reread their NZ6000 literature and they say nothing about variable speed, so perhaps it is true. The literature did say something about the "whisperquiet" fan I think, but in relation to "remote location". So maybe noise not an issue, but maybe it is.

Maybe Napoleon has made the blower one speed (if it is not variable) on purpose. Maybe this unit is so big, that when a blower should be on, it should be ON---at high speed. On the other hand, Napoleon says the blower is "optional". So lack of a variable control then just seems cheapo for the most expensive zc woodburning fireplace out there.

As to the combustion air ducts, Bis Tradition/Lennox Montecito Estate, and RSF Opel all have one 4" cold air intake duct. And the manuals all describe these ducts as insulated. In fact both RSF and Bis/Lennox install manuals describe in detail the cold air duct installs, with good detail pictures and instructions, and talk of "carefully peeling back the insulation layer at the stove end...", "wrapping the ends with duct tape", etc etc.

As to insulated or non-insulated ducts, I can't reason why anyone, anywhere -- even hot climes--would "have to" remove the (maybe) unneeded insulation. What harm could it do? If you need it--you need it. If you don't need it, its presence doesn't bother anything. So make insulated ducts the default--not uninsulated.

Speaking of Manuals, I was taken with the precise, complete, unambiguous, straightforward manner of both the Lennox and the RSF manuals. They answered questions other manuals didn't (Nap NZ 6000, and Travis FPX).

Points to Lennox and to RSF. 1) Insulated cold air intake ducts supplied standard,
2)straightforward, unambiguous manuals,

and 3) to Lennox/Bis, variable speed blower comes standard WITH the unit (not an extra cost option).


builderbob

 

[Gooserider]

I have to admit I'm confused about your postings Builderbob, but maybe it's just the way I approach shopping... :-S

When I'm looking for an item to purchase, I will start by defining the universe of possible choices, and then I start winnowing them down and taking things off the list. I usually do this by further defining my selection specs and eliminating the items that don't meet them.

Once I have found a good reason to eliminate an item, I don't keep picking at it - it is GONE from my list, and I don't keep trying to find out more and more about it, or worry about minor details that aren't at the "deal breaker" level. If I keep wanting to drag a rejected item back onto the list, I ask if I've been using the wrong filter to eliminate it in the first place, redo the filter and re-evaluate the list to see if there are other choices I should eliminate instead...

You seem to me like you have had MULTIPLE reasons to reject the NZ6000, yet you keep harping on what seems to me like trivial items like the insulation on the intake ducts and whether the blower is variable speed or not...

DOES IT MATTER????

If Napoleon offers a free upgrade to insulated ducts, and tells you that the unit has the worlds most perfect, silent, variable speed, high volume, blower does that change the basic fact that the unit appears to be a non-EPA fuel hog with all of the OTHER problems that YOU have mentioned? (Not to mention the other qualified members of the board like Tom Oyen)

If you are already rejecting it for the other reasons, why worry about the minor details? Cross it off your list and move onto the other alternatives.

If you have decided you still want the unit despite the things you don't like about it, then why sweat the fixable minor details - decide you don't care about the other issues, pull the trigger and get on with it...

(This isn't intended as a flame, but consider it a temperature increase...)

Gooserider

 

[builderbob]

What you say may be true---in "my" case.

But there may be many other readers who don't have all the criteria on "my" list, but for whom variable speed fan, or insulated air ducts WERE important crtieria, and could be the deal breakers in *their* cases. Don't they deserve the info on these particular points?

I really see no need to limit information flow. What good does that do?

In my book, the *more* information that is known, and the *more widely* that information is known, the better off we all are.

Back to *my* particular case. I like to requestion and reverify out loud my so-called "known facts"---just to make sure I really do know the truth, or find out if I got something wrong. And if I got something wrong, then maybe I need to rethink my line of thinking. I consider a fireplace, a permanent installation, central to our dream home, as of TOP importance. A decision not to be made lightly, or on perhaps "wrong" or misunderstood information.

Besides, with cyberspace being near infinite, and with you having a choice to ignore my posts completely, I find your suggestions for me to drop the discussion somewhat of a suggestion to limit information flow that can only benefit all concerned.

I fully appreciate all your input and I am sure other readers do too. As I am sure other readers can appreciate my questions and lines of thinking as potential aids to their own questioning.

Indeed, temperatures rising.

builderbob

 

[builderbob]

My other answer is the Napoleon NZ6000 is like a beautiful woman, who you think you might have a chance with.

You don't "want" to give up too easy, even though there are signs she isn't right for you.

builderbob (sucker for a pretty face)