can a zero clearance Xtrordinair be replaced without tearing things apart?

[rjustice4]

I have a 15 year old zero clearance Xtrordinair that I'd like to replace, and am looking for some advice on what all is involved.

I purchased my home about 4 years ago, and have never been pleased with the performance of the Xtrordinair. It smokes quite a bit whenever I add wood. In talking to the local dealer, she mentioned that my unit was built before Travis aquired the Xtrordinair design, and that the previous owner had the same trouble since day 1.....not sure how true this is, but I'm thinking I might want to replace the unit.

As you can see in the attached photo, there is some nice rock work around the front of the stove, along with a nice mantel. From reading the original install manual, it looks like I might need to tear all this out to reverse the install procedure.....Ouch....

Is it possible to remove the unit from the back? In the second photo you can see the outside of the house. I'm wondering if some siding and sheeting can be removed and the unit removed from the back? Maybe this is wishfull thinking....

Anyone have experience removing one of these beasts...?

Thanks.

Bob

 

[Shane]

You could probably take it out the back. Alot of work either way. The determining factor would be if you could get to the nailing flanges on the front of the stove. THe chase looks to be build just wide enough to accomodate the unit. How tall is the chimney? Do you have smoking problems in certain weather conditions etc? I ask because the cause of draft problems are not generally attributed to the unit but to the chimney.

 

[elkimmeg]

I have to ask what is the vent in picture 3 half way up the side? Is it possible that that vent is allowing cold air in the chase and causing draft preformance problems?

 

[hearthtools]

I dont see any other way than to Take the Rock work off.
The unit extends much higher than the Front of the door frame.
and depending on how the masson did the work the Wounder board might be screwed to the face of the unit above the door frame.

Sorry.

Elk that vent you see might be the outside air for the fireplace.


I would clean the flue and take apart the inside of the stove to make sure the Smoke self above the secondary combustion is clear.
I would also check to see if the Out side air is really getting air into the unit.

 

[jtp10181]

Also, might not be a bad idea to get a peek inside the chase to see if its insulated. I would say to fix the problem, not replace the fireplace. You might put a new fireplace in and have the same problem if the underlying cause is not fixed.

 

[rjustice4]

Thanks for all the input, folks.

I will try to post some additional pictures tomorrow, they might answer some questions.

I like the idea of troubleshooting the existing system. I was relluctant to do that on my own, but with help from this forum....we might be able to figure it out.

Bob

 

[jtp10181]

Here's a couple things I would do for some basic troubleshooting.

- Make sure the wood is dry and seasoned, high energy. Does it light easily and easy to keep it going? Wood that sounds like bacon, all the energy is going into evaporating water. Also, no rotten wood, that stuff has little energy for the fire.

- Check inside of firebox for damage, check air tubes and baffles, make sure everything is in its place.

- Verify you are operating all the controls correctly.

- Try opening a window / door on the other side of the room, does that stop the smoke from coming back in?

- Check the chimney system and cap for blockage.

 

[rjustice4]

Here is a photo of the original install.

The grill in the firebox is just sitting there, eventually it was installed over the blower intake on the outside of the house.

The duct coming in the bottom is from the blower. (Is this the air that gets blown over the exchangers and into the room, or does it provide combustion air? If it is the air that goes over the exchangers and into the room, where does the fire get combustion gas?)

The ducts coming out top left and right are cooling vents (see diagrams in next couple of posts).

The duct coming out top center is an air cooled chimney.

In the next couple of posts I've attached pages from the install manual for a NEW Xtrordinair. I'm in the process of getting a copy of the manuals for my stove (built in 1992).

Thanks for your help and suggestions....

Bob

 

[rjustice4]

Here are a few pages from the manual for a new unit....

I see cooling air, and air from the blower. Where is combustion air? The blower doesn't usually come on until the fire is hot. Are there two blowers, one for combustion and one that blows heat into the room?

I haven't measured it, but I think the total height of the chimney is about 30 feet.

 

[rjustice4]

Here is an additional page, which shows the flow of the cooling air...

 

[begreen]

Looks like something is connected at the bottom. Is there a crawlspace underneath and is there an air intake located there? Check to be sure it is unobstructed.

I think the negative pressure testing recommendations are good to follow. As a simple test you could try opening a window in the room before opening the fireplace door. If opening the window stops smoke from spilling out, then negative pressure is suspected.

 

[rjustice4]

The air intake is located directly under the chase, on the exterior of the house. I'll check that for obstructions.

I open several windows in the house when I add wood...to let the smoke clear. It didn't help much. Got real cold in the house though...!

Do you think the blower is providing the combustion air AND the air that is blown into the house? I would think you would want to seperate the two, to minimize smoke bieng blown into the house...?

 

[begreen]

Next time, try opening a window 30 seconds before opening the fireplace door to see if smoke still spills out of the heater. If done after smoke has already come in the house the test is not really valid.

How tight is the construction on the house? Does it have an air to air heat exchanger? Or fresh air intake?

 

[rjustice4]

I've opened window(s) before opening the door....smoke still spills out once the door is open.

I would say the construction is pretty tight, although I do have a couple of spots (near the stove) I've been meaning to tighten up. One is under the front door, air comes in because the gasket has worn. The other spot is in a planter by the front door, that has some kind of drain down to the crawl space.

I do not have an air-to-air heat exchanger, but fresh air probably comes in through the spots I mentioned.

I left a message for the tech services guy at Travis (they make the Xtrordinair), hopefully he'll call back. I have a hunch that they discourage direct contact with the consumer...directing all contact through the dealer. In this case, the local dealer is useless, so I hope I can work directly with the manufacturer....

 

[webbie]

Try sending a Private message to member gawester (he works at travis) - although he is very, very busy perhaps he can steer you to the right person by email or phone (perhaps their local rep - NOT the dealer, in this case).

As I remember, these units are very tough to remove - when we enclosed with masonry I think we put two lintels in so we could remove unit with only removing SOME of the masonry. I guess we can chalk that up (replacement) as being one of the down-sides of built-in units (in general).

 

[rjustice4]

Thanks for the tip, Craig, I'll send gawester a PM.

Bob

 

[elkimmeg]

You know at wha level is the stove installed in the house? Have you first cracked the door first before swinging it open? I willing to bet you could have a plugged intake combustion air problem plugged termination cap and negative pressure situation in your home possibly all of these. There should be no blower for Combustion air it should be naturally drawn in as needed. Never mechanically injected. Anothe posibility is leakage by circulation presurizing the burn compartment forcing smoke to exit pissibly a gasket replacement .

Negative pressure leakage occures on the level above the stove the usuall cculprits are attic pull down stairs attic accesss leakage or whole house fan leakage. Anything the leaks pressure above the nuetral pressure zone inscrases negay tive pressure below You could have a serious pressure leak an the smoke has nothing to do with the stove or opperation.

Lets try to figure it out before tearing it out placing a new unit in there and haveing a repeat problem

 

[jtp10181]

In that first picture... I don't see any insulation or drywall behind the fireplace? Is the chase even insulated? It is quite difficult to do a good job of it after the fireplace is in. At our shop if the builder doesn't do it before we get there, we do it and charge for it.

 

[rjustice4]

Thanks for the help...and to answer your questions:

- The fireplace is installed in the ground floor. It is a two story house.
- I have cracked the front door before opening the fireplace - smoke still enters the room.
- I'm trying to get through to someone at Travis to find out where the cobustion air inlet is, so I can check for blockage. At least, I'd like to get an exploded assembly drawing of the stove. I've left a message at Travis, and sent a PM to a forum member who works at Travis.
- I'll get up on the roof this weekend and check for a pluged termination cap. I'm also planning on having a chimney sweep over to give everything a good cleaning.
- I get smoke at startup, before the circulating fan kicks on, so maybe not a problem with the circulation fan.
- I do have a whole house fan, with a louvered opening that opens when the fan is turned on. Not sure how leak proof it is, but I would guess is leaks like a sieve.
I'm thinking maybe I should do some pressure measurements...can you rent those?
- I will check with the builder to see if the chase is insulated (or I could just drill a small hole in the wall and see if insulation pulls out). One thing with this stove is that the chimney is air cooled, so air is always flowing in the outside jacket of the chimney (it is double walled). Would you still need insulation if you're running cold outside air in the outer jacket of the chimney?

 

[jtp10181]

Even with air cooled chimney it is still recomended to insulate the full chase in cold climates. Where are you located anyway? (Craig, you should make the location a mandatory field to fill in when registering!) If the chimney does not have a chimney air kit on it, that cold air will just dump into the chase with some styles of venting, which also does not help... Also if the chase behind the fireplace and up to the first draft stop is not insulated, its like having a giant hole in the side of your house. Its pretty easy to tell, do you get a bad draft around the fireplace, or does it just always feel colder by the fireplace (when not in use)? If so, I doubt the chase in properly insulated and sealed.

Number one cause I have found for smoking back is bad wood
Number two is plugged chimney cap (caused by bad wood, or neglect)
Number three is pressure issues
Number four is cold chimney or not hot enough fires (which causes too cool of a chimney)


---

Also from what I can gather.... the two air ducts coming off the top are "Chimney Ait Kits" which connect to the outer cooling shell of the chimney pipe and probably also the outer shell of the unit to allow closer combustibles clearances. The air duct visible underneath that he says is ducted to under the chase is probably the blower duct (convection). From what he said this blows air over the heat excahngers and into the room. The manual saus in cold climates NOT to draw this air from outside.... so... wonder where he is. Combustion air is probably just drawn from inside the room, since I don't see anything about fresh air or combustion air in the manual pages. Its also possible the combustion air is taken from the cooling air.

 

[rjustice4]

Thanks for the great input....and I've updated my profile to show my location.

My wife has noticed drafts around the fireplace, when it's not burning.

I will check on chase insullation.

In respect to your causes,

- I just bought a Delmhorst moisture meter, should be here in a few days. I will make sure the wood is dry before I burn, this may have been a problem before, as I was relying on the company I bought wood from to sell dry wood - I'll feel a lot better with the meter.

- I'm going to have the whole system sweeped - that should catch problems at the cap

- I'll look into pressure measurements - perhaps I can find someone nearby with a meter to borrow or rent. I assume this needs to be done when it's cold outside?

- I'm looking into insulation around the chase. Worse comes to worse, I can probably cut an access hole from outside and get in there to insulate....

You're right about the two ducts off the top, they are for cooling air.

The duct underneath is connected to the blower, and is drawing from outside. I need to check local codes on this, and check with Travis about moving this...

Once again, thanks for the help.

Bob

 

[elkimmeg]

Bingo whole house fan huge heat loss area and huge positive pressure leak. Stuff that up with insulation. but remember to remove the insulation before activating the fan also your attic access probably is leaking again stuff it up with insulation and add weatherstripping to seal the opening. Two huge heat loss areas in your envelope and pressure leakage.



Jtp is right on with his suggestion on having your chimney chase uninsulated. Cold air will cool your vent pipe and retard draft plus being another huge hole in your insulation envelope.

I'm willing to bet a clogged chimney cap if it is not cleaned biannually then chances are tour draft is being restricted and reduced all these factors will aid to puff back smoke into the living space when the doors are open. the reason i asked about the vents I saw I suspected they also add cold air to that chase. No combustion air should be added mechanically

In a two story home the stove location is in the negative pressure zone anything below ceiling height will be in a negative pressure zone having leaks above that zone acerbates the negative pressure where the stove is located

 

[jtp10181]

I have only ran into one place around here claiming to sell dry wood, that actually has dry wood. Also, FYI when using the meter you need to split one of the logs and read the freshly split edge to get an accurate reading.

Don't use the house fan during the time you are using the fireplace, that's for sure. Might want to plug it up or seal it off somehow during the winter as Elk suggested.

For a pressure test, the best gauge to use is a magnehelic manometer, accurate to the Pascal.

 

[seaken]

Bob,

you've got some fine advice from some of the other folks here., not the least of which is to suspect negative pressure issues in the house itself and an uninsulated chase. At 4000 feet you're going to have more difficulty than most of us.

It will cost a lot of money to rip that unit out. You may be able to achieve acceptable results with other tactics.

I would start with moving the air inlet/fan casing to the interior of the house, in a properly ventilated area. See the manual. Also, check that the flap at the blower housing, where the blower housing attaches to the sheet-metal wall box, is not "pinched" closed. It is easy to accidentally pinch this flap and close off the air inlet. The fan can be accessed by removing the grill and filter from the outside. (Turn off the circuit breaker first).

Next, confirm that the chase is properly insulated. Many builders cheat on this, and some fireplace installers also. The entire chase should be insulated from under the unit up to the first firestop (typically 8 feet above the bottom). If the chase is not insulated you should remove the exterior siding and sheathing. Add in some nailer/furring strips to the inside edge of the verticle studs, add a barrier (sheetrock, sheetmetal, etc.) to keep the insulation from falling into the chase cavity, add the insulation (Use a good insulation board of high r-value. The same stuff used on the roof in log homes), then replace the sheathing and siding. (While open you can also caulk all the joints).

Finally, if that does not help, along with your attempts to control the negative pressure problems, add an "Exhausto" fan cap, properly designed for your chimney. (I think Exhausto advertises here on Hearthnet). Even after all this you should be under the cost to rip the unit out and replace it.

Pardon me now for proselitizing, but your situation illustrates the value of a good fireplace specialist getting involved before the fireplace is chosen and installed. Unfortunately, too many builders, and some home-owners, do not appreciate this value and do not want to pay for good advice up front that may save them lots of money down the road. The Fireplace Xtrordinair is a unique system, not even properly understood by many FPX dealers. If I were there to work with your builder I would not have recommended the FPX be installed in that house. If they insisted on an FPX I would have insisted on an interior location and I would have allowed for an Exhausto fan in the budget (Note: Travis would not support the "Exhausto" idea. It would be up to me and "Exhausto" to get the specs right). A Security BIS, or something similar, like an RFS, would have been preferrable. Something with a packed-insulated chimney system (not air-cooled) would have been a better choice.

Of course, the FPX dealer wants to make the sale, right? But now there is a shaking of the head and the dealer is out of the picture. He made the sale but he no longer has a customer. If he had more knowledge of where the fireplace was going and took more responsibility for it's installation maybe he ends up with a client for life. I know, it's hard. It' never as easy as I make it out to be. Yet, it can be done. It starts with knowing your limitations and being willing to confront the builders to do the same. A lot of these types of problems can be headed off if the dealers and builders would stop with the arogance and start with the respect. It will also help if the home-owners and buyers, will stop rushing. A couple of extra weeks could make all the difference. Did anyone sit down at the table and discuss the positives and negatives before choosing a fireplace? Did anyone share the blue prints with a fireplace specialist? Did anyone offer to pay the fair rates charged by the fireplace specialist to oversee the installation of this complex device? Or did they rather say it was "too much" and decide they could do it themselves?

I think the FPX wood fireplaces are a great product. But I have expressed my desire several times to Travis Industries that they design the fireplace to accept packed insulated chimney systems. So far, they only accept air-cooled systems, and for the forseeable future. This is one reason, even though we love the FPX products and feature them in our business, we discourage these wood models in our market area. We live in a cold weather environment, with lots of week-enders, and the air-cooled chimney systems are nothing but trouble. We place more BIS units in this category. Having a packed insulated chimney, especially when the fireplace is placed in an outside chase, makes all the difference for us. We have much less trouble with the BIS.

Good luck with your upgrades. I hope you can find some local professional help. There are good fireplace people all across this country. If you find one, please be willing to pay for his or her expertise. If these people can make a living at this we'll all be better off.

Sean

 

[jtp10181]

FYI here in Wisconsin we sell a LOT of 7100-FP and Northstar units which are EPA built in fireplaces that use air cooled chimney (HHT SL300). They can take the "DuraPlus" insulation packed venting but we only use it if a customer asks for it. We don't really have any problems caused by the air cooled chimney.