Cast Wraps - Jotul vs. Pacific Energy

[ThinAir]

After reading as much as I could find about stoves, my conclusion is that for my desires I would be interested in a cast wrapped steel box that could heat 1,800 to 2,100 sq. ft. ( house not under remodel yet). I would also purchase from a local dealer, fortunately almost all popular stove mfg.'s are represented here in Bozeman MT.

For me it came down to either Jotul or Pacific Energy offerings, and today I had the opportunity to do some detailed inspection of both of their offerings. I viewed and measured the PE Alderlea T5, and the Jotul Oslo, Castine, and Carrabassett units.

My findings were interesting, not what the brochures or stats would otherwise lead you to believe;

For instance the glass area ironically was largest on the T5 with a 16.5 x 10" area vs. the Carrabassett with 15.5" x 10.5", although one would look at both stove and assume the F55 Carrabassett was larger.

The interior usable space was another eye opener. Since the Jotuls have a sloped secondary taller at the opening of the stove and narrowing to the back, the actual usable space from bottom to top was 12" all all the stoves mentioned.

So it comes down to depth of the box and width:

Jotul F55 17.5"w x 19"d
Jotul Oslo 24"w x 12"d
PE T5 15.5"w x 18"d
Greenville 16"w x 17.5d

Bottom of stove/brick to lower lip of stove;

F55 2.75" with "ramp"
Oslo 3" with ramp
PE T5 3.5" "no ramp"
Greenville 3.5" with "ramp"
* ramp is from brick to lip on approx 45 degree angle. Is this what causes ash spill on the Jotul's when raking coals forward during reload???

Viewing Area;

Different from glass size. The Carrabasset wins here as the top 2" of the T5 is cut off from the top lip of the steel firebox, whereas with the F55 the lip is at the top of the glass.

Other;

When opening the door of the T5 one can see between the cast shields and the steel box, on the F55 you cannot, it is a very nicely finished wrap from sides to lip of the firebox. Super nice fit and finish.

Stove opening/Loading hole;

F55 - W17" x 10" H
T5 - W15.5" x 8.24" H

Of note on the T5 vs. the F55 is that the F55 has the last fire brick on each side at the very back protruding approx 1.25" out on each side rendering the width actually less than stated above. This minimizes the width halfway up the box until the brick ends, the balance above that is at stated width above.

Also noted is that the stove mfg.'s appear to state the cu. ft. of the stove quite liberally, especially Jotul. Reason for this is the protrusion from the lower lip to the brick base on the stoves. With Jotul's "ramp" the actual length of a split that would lay flat on the bottom of the box would minimize the interior room a bit.

So what did I garner from this.... hmmm not sure. The F55 seems to have a wee bit larger viewing area, and due to the wider box, just a wee bit more burning area, say maybe 10% at best vs the Alderlea T5.

Even though both the Alderlea T5 and the F55 have arched door glass tops, because the T5's firebox upper lip is horizontial (firebox opening square as is the F55's) and is 2" below the top peak of the arch in the glass, the actual viewing area is squared off and a bit minimized, lending better top of door viewing area in favor of the F55.

Very nit picky differences, but simply my hack job appraisal of the brands and stoves.

The Jotul's cast and fit and finish area outstanding. The design of the T5 is sexy as hell, especially with the swing out top lending the stove great for cooking, covering up spills, and warming just about anything. It will be a tough choice for us to make. Not to mention the F55 is a couple Ben Franklins less expensive at my dealer.

Best assessment of the actual usable size of the two;

T5 - 2.0 cu. ft.
F55 - 2.2 cu. ft.

 

[jeff_t]

But you should be looking at the T6.

I really like the baffle system in the PEs. It is very stout, meaning you don't have to worry much about damaging anything if you get enthusiastic about stuffing that last split in. And it makes cleaning the chimney easy. Pull a pin, tip it, and lift it out.

 

[mfetcho]

How well insulated is your house? Lots of windows? I am heating 2500 sq/ft with my T6 and it is not too big. When it's in the single digits or teens outside, my stove is balls out. I am in Spokane and I think Bozeman gets colder.

 

[ddddddden]

But you should be looking at the T6. . .

+1
. . .unless you are remodelling super-insulated.
(I'm guessing that a T6 was not on display.)

Good comparison and write-up. You're looking at the key features. Another thing to keep in mind is that the more square fireboxes will let you load N-S or E-W. This gives you more flexibility; many stoves burn faster/hotter when loaded N-S. A firebox like the Oslo's can't be routinely loaded N-S, unless you cut wood to 10", and can't be loaded full, unless you cut wood ~ 22".

Jotul Oslo 24"w x 12"d. . .

Jotul's cast and fit and finish are outstanding. The design of the T5 is sexy as hell. . .

Some of the models you're looking at are available in enamel. Now dat's sexy!
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/bigaldert5brn.htm)

 

[ThinAir]

+1
. . .unless you are remodelling super-insulated.
(I'm guessing that a T6 was not on display.)

Good comparison and write-up. You're looking at the key features. Another thing to keep in mind is that the more square fireboxes will let you load N-S or E-W. This gives you more flexibility; many stoves burn faster/hotter when loaded N-S. A firebox like the Oslo's can't be routinely loaded N-S, unless you cut wood to 10", and can't be loaded full, unless you cut wood ~ 22".



Some of the models you're looking at are available in enamel. Now dat's sexy!
(broken link removed to http://chimneysweeponline.com/bigaldert5brn.htm)

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the comparison. If the Jotul F55 didn't have the brick sticking out by a half brick width into the rear of the firebox, that stove would be damn near perfect. With it's width it allows both n/s and e/w loading, but you'd have to pick through the wood for one or two shorter splits to really maximize the interior if you were to load e/w.

As Jeff_T mentioned above, and I intended to (on my notes), the PE's secondary is flat and level and stout, with the air holes at the front of the box both on the front edge and just below on the lower edge. Really no way to bump a chuck of wood against it in any fashion to damage it or "stump" a split against it whilst loading it. On the other hand the Jotul's secondary has two or three e/w individual bumped down half circular tubes that are distanced approx. 8" apart from one another. The first tube by the door is the highest, then the next and next angling more and more toward the back of the stove. Hard to explain, I suppose this is where a pic would be great. Point is that you could look at the angle as good or bad. Bad if you plan to make use of all the advertised cu. ft. space within as you are limited to the height at mid to back of box if you are to load split in flat, and I'd assume you would. Good if that extra room between the top of the load of wood and the front tube serves some real benefit in one way or the other. But there is no doubt that if one was to pack the Jotul stoves full, one would have to be more careful or gentle as to not ram into the mid box secondary tube and "stump" the butt of the split into it. Moot point on the F55 if you load e/w, at which point you could also get more wood in the front of the box than in the back. Pick as hell here, but my observations just the same.

Perhaps I'll look into the T6 and the F55 given my home size. My thought was that if I'm heating 1,250 sq. ft. in the main living area, that if the upper level of 800 sq. ft. was a bit cooler.... well great, they are bedrooms. There has to be some alchemy for stove sizing that takes into consideration the heating of a two story vs. a ranch, the ranch being much more spread out for the same size.

 

[mfetcho]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the comparison. If the Jotul F55 didn't have the brick sticking out by a half brick width into the rear of the firebox, that stove would be damn near perfect. With it's width it allows both n/s and e/w loading, but you'd have to pick through the wood for one or two shorter splits to really maximize the interior if you were to load e/w.

As Jeff_T mentioned above, and I intended to (on my notes), the PE's secondary is flat and level and stout, with the air holes at the front of the box both on the front edge and just below on the lower edge. Really no way to bump a chuck of wood against it in any fashion to damage it or "stump" a split against it whilst loading it. On the other hand the Jotul's secondary has two or three e/w individual bumped down half circular tubes that are distanced approx. 8" apart from one another. The first tube by the door is the highest, then the next and next angling more and more toward the back of the stove. Hard to explain, I suppose this is where a pic would be great. Point is that you could look at the angle as good or bad. Bad if you plan to make use of all the advertised cu. ft. space within as you are limited to the height at mid to back of box if you are to load split in flat, and I'd assume you would. Good if that extra room between the top of the load of wood and the front tube serves some real benefit in one way or the other. But there is no doubt that if one was to pack the Jotul stoves full, one would have to be more careful or gentle as to not ram into the mid box secondary tube and "stump" the butt of the split into it. Moot point on the F55 if you load e/w, at which point you could also get more wood in the front of the box than in the back. Pick as hell here, but my observations just the same.

Perhaps I'll look into the T6 and the F55 given my home size. My thought was that if I'm heating 1,250 sq. ft. in the main living area, that if the upper level of 800 sq. ft. was a bit cooler.... well great, they are bedrooms. There has to be some alchemy for stove sizing that takes into consideration the heating of a two story vs. a ranch, the ranch being much more spread out for the same size.

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the comparison. If the Jotul F55 didn't have the brick sticking out by a half brick width into the rear of the firebox, that stove would be damn near perfect. With it's width it allows both n/s and e/w loading, but you'd have to pick through the wood for one or two shorter splits to really maximize the interior if you were to load e/w.

As Jeff_T mentioned above, and I intended to (on my notes), the PE's secondary is flat and level and stout, with the air holes at the front of the box both on the front edge and just below on the lower edge. Really no way to bump a chuck of wood against it in any fashion to damage it or "stump" a split against it whilst loading it. On the other hand the Jotul's secondary has two or three e/w individual bumped down half circular tubes that are distanced approx. 8" apart from one another. The first tube by the door is the highest, then the next and next angling more and more toward the back of the stove. Hard to explain, I suppose this is where a pic would be great. Point is that you could look at the angle as good or bad. Bad if you plan to make use of all the advertised cu. ft. space within as you are limited to the height at mid to back of box if you are to load split in flat, and I'd assume you would. Good if that extra room between the top of the load of wood and the front tube serves some real benefit in one way or the other. But there is no doubt that if one was to pack the Jotul stoves full, one would have to be more careful or gentle as to not ram into the mid box secondary tube and "stump" the butt of the split into it. Moot point on the F55 if you load e/w, at which point you could also get more wood in the front of the box than in the back. Pick as hell here, but my observations just the same.

Perhaps I'll look into the T6 and the F55 given my home size. My thought was that if I'm heating 1,250 sq. ft. in the main living area, that if the upper level of 800 sq. ft. was a bit cooler.... well great, they are bedrooms. There has to be some alchemy for stove sizing that takes into consideration the heating of a two story vs. a ranch, the ranch being much more spread out for the same size.

House configuration plays a large role as well as stove location. My 2500 sq/ft that I mentioned includes 3 bedrooms upstairs. I have no problem keeping the upstairs warm when it's cold outside. Getting the heat to the far reaches of the house on the main floor is more of the challenge. Good job taking everything into consideration.

 

[ThinAir]

Come to think of it, I think the protruding brick may get damaged on the F55, placing the first sets of splits into that box is certainly going to take some recognition of those bricks, no just unconsciously sliding wood in, or you will bang the sides of those bricks. Maybe not though, I have no "real world" stove experience and don't want to come off like I'm some seasoned vet here, nor do I want to persuade anyone through net talk here that this is a design flaw, in reality it may be a non issue at all, same with the secondaries. The F55 is a very sleek stove for it's size, and to repeat the cast is smoother than the PE, the paint appears to be thicker, and the appearance of the finishes and build are top notch. The best comparison I could make would be that the F55 has a smoother more satin finish/texture to the cast and the PE has more of a rougher more flat appearance to it. I hate to say "fit" is better because it's just different. On the PE you can see the space between the cast and the steel when you open the door, not with the F55. The PE gives one the sense that the cast is bolted on the steel (and it is) whereas with the Jotul, the cast seems integrated more seamlessly to the steel box within. Oh..... I've gone way to far here, think I'll stop now.

 

[madison]

thinair,

i've spent almost all of my free time over the past 35 yrs in and around bozo. i do not live there, but have many friends that live and burn wood in the area.

1. Upsize and don't think twice about it for multiple reasons.
- you will be burning lodgepole or other pines.
- you have alot of wind and a decent amount of lower temps.
Go for the largest firebox you can fit on your hearth. Forget the T5, if you like the PE stoves go for the larger fireboxed models, summit or t6. Depending on where the stove is situated in your home, the cast iron jacketed stoves have their advantages. Close tolerances, ability to have furniture etc close without getting "sun burned" by radiant heat. But the unjacketed stoves can warm an area faster...

2. As you already have been thinking, regarding loading wood into the firebox: your lodgepole will more than likely unsplit rounds, or minimally split, so a bigger, easier to load door opening. Forget side loading for the most part. Look for the largest front opening in the largest firebox.

3. Go with the dealer that has the longest tenure and/or best reputation.

 

[ThinAir]

thinair,

i've spent almost all of my free time over the past 35 yrs in and around bozo. i do not live there, but have many friends that live and burn wood in the area.

1. Upsize and don't think twice about it for multiple reasons.
- you will be burning lodgepole or other pines.
- you have alot of wind and a decent amount of lower temps.
Go for the largest firebox you can fit on your hearth. Forget the T5, if you like the PE stoves go for the larger fireboxed models, summit or t6. Depending on where the stove is situated in your home, the cast iron jacketed stoves have their advantages. Close tolerances, ability to have furniture etc close without getting "sun burned" by radiant heat. But the unjacketed stoves can warm an area faster...

2. As you already have been thinking, regarding loading wood into the firebox: your lodgepole will more than likely unsplit rounds, or minimally split, so a bigger, easier to load door opening. Forget side loading for the most part. Look for the largest front opening in the largest firebox.

3. Go with the dealer that has the longest tenure and/or best reputation.

Madison, thanks for the advice. I'm thinking T6 or F55 now given the temps and wind today. It's below zero and howling wind. Normally it isn't too awful windy in Bozeman but it does get chilly for a good month of the winter. My only concern about a big box in a small lower level as ours will be, is getting baked out and not enjoying being able to sit by the fire.

We will be having plenty of windows in the area of the stove, and I know you can build a smaller fire in a larger stove. Perhaps my concerns are not warranted.

 

[begreen]

We have a T6 in a 2000 sq ft home in a much milder climate. It has never baked us out. That is up to the operator not the stove.

 

[KodiakII]

Go big, I don't know what kind of super insulated vessel they use to rate the stoves, but in the real world their ratings are some what misleading and disappointing. I pictured my t6 roasting us out of our kitchen, but this is not the case. Our 150 plus year old farm house is as well insulated as they come, but the windows do need to be replaced. Also get one with a blower, they do help.

p.s.
DId they ever catch the thief that stole Sheldon Cooper's luggage from the bus terminal? (just kidding)

 

[ThinAir]

We have a T6 in a 2000 sq ft home in a much milder climate. It has never baked us out. That is up to the operator not the stove.

Begreen, you still fooling around with the idea of an BK Ashford? If so... why vs. your T6? I like the idea of the BK Ashford, but the reported lack of fireshow on BK's would be a deal killer for me. I'd really like to see one burning but no dice here in Bozeman for BK's live and running.

 

[madison]

Normally not too windy in Bozo? Are you a new resident? Possibly windy is a relative term, but IMHO Bozo is quite windy. Possibly if you are sheltered down off main st or 19th in town, the winds could be a bit less than out on the edges of town.

Regarding getting burned out, not with a jacketed stove, the only area of blasting heat is directly in front of the glass. I can speak for the t6 - the side jackets and trivet top diffuse the radiant heat and you can sit quite close to the stove. Ours in in the kitchen/family room. As long as there are a couple of doorways of sufficient openings, and the stove room is not exceptionally small, the fire size, fans/blowers can be used to modulate the heat.

 

[ThinAir]

Normally not too windy in Bozo? Are you a new resident? Possibly windy is a relative term, but IMHO Bozo is quite windy. Possibly if you are sheltered down off main st or 19th in town, the winds could be a bit less than out on the edges of town.

Regarding getting burned out, not with a jacketed stove, the only area of blasting heat is directly in front of the glass. I can speak for the t6 - the side jackets and trivet top diffuse the radiant heat and you can sit quite close to the stove. Ours in in the kitchen/family room. As long as there are a couple of doorways of sufficient openings, and the stove room is not exceptionally small, the fire size, fans/blowers can be used to modulate the heat.

We live on the near south side 4 blocks from main in the historic Cooper Park neighborhood. Wind is relative to experience. I've been here 5 years and stay with Bozeman being relatively calm most of the year. Perhaps out in Belgrade, or even worse Livingston, there is wind. Bozeman....nah! But I'm here to tell you that it is blowing snow sideways today, and ccoolldd....

 

[begreen]

Begreen, you still fooling around with the idea of an BK Ashford? If so... why vs. your T6? I like the idea of the BK Ashford, but the reported lack of fireshow on BK's would be a deal killer for me. I'd really like to see one burning but no dice here in Bozeman for BK's live and running.

Not seriously at this point. I'd like to try one out but unfortunately stoves are not like cars that you can rent or borrow to try out for a weekend.

 

[ThinAir]

Not seriously at this point. I'd like to try one out but unfortunately stoves are not like cars that you can rent or borrow for a weekend.

Have you had the opportunity to see a functioning Ashford live? Would love to know if there is any comparison to a non cat fire show. I get the impressions that the lack of fire show is non a Cat/Non Cat issue. I have seen the Lopi Leyden live and heard reports that the Vermont Casting 2in1 has an excellent show. The Leyden sure looked nice when burning and it's a cat. Maybe it's just Blaze King that due to it's reported amazing burn times, the technology works against a fire show. Not all cats are similar this way.

 

[begreen]

No, I have not seen one in person yet. The Leyden is not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft model with the combustion package in the rear. Maybe you mean the CapeCod?

Hybrid stoves appear to burn mostly with secondary burn and the cat for clean up. That gives a better fire show. Still, there are some pure cats stoves like the Woodstock Fireview and Keystone seem to have a satisfactory fire view and cleaner glass.

 

[ThinAir]

No, I have not seen one in person yet. The Leyden is not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft model with the combustion package in the rear. Maybe you mean the CapeCod?

Hybrid stoves appear to burn mostly with secondary burn and the cat for clean up. That gives a better fire show. Still, there are some pure cats stoves like the Woodstock Fireview and Keystone seem to have a satisfactory fire view and cleaner glass.

begreen, thanks for the clarification on the Lopi Leyden, I thought it was a cat, I do know the Cape is a cat, and has mixed reviews on this site, albeit mostly positive from the standpoint of flame viewing. Hopefully Lopi will get into the cast wrapped a bit deeper as has others, specifically Jotul and PE.

 

[ThinAir]

No, I have not seen one in person yet. The Leyden is not a catalytic stove. It's a downdraft model with the combustion package in the rear. Maybe you mean the CapeCod?

Hybrid stoves appear to burn mostly with secondary burn and the cat for clean up. That gives a better fire show. Still, there are some pure cats stoves like the Woodstock Fireview and Keystone seem to have a satisfactory fire view and cleaner glass.

Hey Begreen, would you mind measuring the inside HxWxD of your T6 and let me know. For depth, I measured from where the first log can lay flat to the back, not on top of the small "shelf" just inside the door. Actual usable space. Thanks

 

[begreen]

Well it's pretty hot in there right now. Note that once you are about an inch over the fire bed you are not bound by that shelf. The ledge is deep, but slants low into the bottom so that ash falls back into the stove. I use that space all the time and often have logs hanging a inch or more over it.

 

[ddddddden]

. . .Maybe it's just Blaze King that due to it's reported amazing burn times, the technology works against a fire show. Not all cats are similar this way.

. . .there are some pure cats stoves like the Woodstock Fireview and Keystone seem to have a satisfactory fire view and cleaner glass.

Yes, it's a BK thing.
I started burning non-cat style when the stainless cat flaked out. 90% of the time, I set the air on the Fireview for nice secondary flames, and get the light show + a glowing cat for several hours. AFAICS, stove temp and house temp are in the same ballpark when I reload ~12 hours later. Fireview: the original hybrid.

If atmospheric conditions are right, the Fireview will do a 20-hour burn, like the 2-cu-ft BK's are rated for, but if you choke it down to go for 20 hours, and atmospheric conditions are not right, your draft can become too weak, and the cat burn can stall, and you wake up to a house colder than it should be, because some portion of the load burned without secondary combustion. BK's use Alien Technology® to make sure the cat always has enough air. With non-BK stoves, I think it's better to err on the side of too much air rather than too little. All of which means, um. . .nothing to you because the Fireview is not big enough for you.

Anyhow, as BG mentioned, the hybrids seem to burn non-cat style, with plenty to see + perhaps longer burn times. I like your picks, F55 and T6. . .would give due consideration to the Lopi Cape Cod and Woodstock Progress hybrids too.

 

[ThinAir]

Well it's pretty hot in there right now. Note that once you are about an inch over the fire bed you are not bound by that shelf. The ledge is deep, but slants low into the bottom so that ash falls back into the stove. I use that space all the time and often have logs hanging a inch or more over it.

Ahh, good to know. For reference, my measurements above are all consistent in that I excluded the ramp and shelf for both brands. All things equal. I did not think that area was useful as it would place the butt of the splits too close to the glass. My misunderstanding. This would increase the ratings more toward what the mfg's state that they are.

 

[ThinAir]

Yes, it's a BK thing.
I started burning non-cat style when the stainless cat flaked out. 90% of the time, I set the air on the Fireview for nice secondary flames, and get the light show + a glowing cat for several hours. AFAICS, stove temp and house temp are in the same ballpark when I reload ~12 hours later. Fireview: the original hybrid.

If atmospheric conditions are right, the Fireview will do a 20-hour burn, like the 2-cu-ft BK's are rated for, but if you choke it down to go for 20 hours, and atmospheric conditions are not right, your draft can become too weak, and the cat burn can stall, and you wake up to a house colder than it should be, because some portion of the load burned without secondary combustion. BK's use Alien Technology® to make sure the cat always has enough air. With non-BK stoves, I think it's better to err on the side of too much air rather than too little. All of which means, um. . .nothing to you because the Fireview is not big enough for you.

Anyhow, as BG mentioned, the hybrids seem to burn non-cat style, with plenty to see + perhaps longer burn times. I like your picks, F55 and T6. . .would give due consideration to the Lopi Cape Cod and Woodstock Progress hybrids too.

I have no access to Woodstock, about the only stove not represented in the area. I did look at the Cape Cod, seemed like a very nice stove as well. There is generous time before I'll have to lay down the cash, who knows perhaps by early next fall a new model will appear that will be enticing as well. Thanks for all the education, I'm enjoying the learning curve. My wife and I are dreaming and envisioning the day when we have that wonderful heat in the old bones that the stove will certainly bring.

 

[jeff_t]

I have no access to Woodstock, about the only stove not represented in the area. I did look at the Cape Cod, seemed like a very nice stove as well. There is generous time before I'll have to lay down the cash, who knows perhaps by early next fall a new model will appear that will be enticing as well. Thanks for all the education, I'm enjoying the learning curve. My wife and I are dreaming and envisioning the day when we have that wonderful heat in the old bones that the stove will certainly bring.

http://woodstove.com/

This is your access to Woodstock. That, and the old fashioned telephone. They only sell factory direct. It sucks that you can't kick the tires, but Woodstock's reputaion for quality and customer service is unparalled.

 

[ddddddden]

Yeah, they are represented everywhere. . .or nowhere, depending on your perspective.
(broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/howtoorder)

I did look at the Cape Cod, seemed like a very nice stove as well. There is generous time before I'll have to lay down the cash, who knows perhaps by early next fall a new model will appear that will be enticing as well. . .

Good to take time to choose well, but buy before next fall for best prices.

I'd definitely take a look at the Woodstock Progress Hybrid that uses both burn tubes and a cat, along with the smooth heat of soapstone. . .I'd go big for your house so the PE T-6, Jotul F55 or F600, BK Ashford, or maybe even a Quad Isle Royale are all great choices. . .

(broken link removed to https://www.hearthstonestoves.com/store/wood-products/wood-stoves/manchester)
Maybe give the Hearthstone Manchester a look too. . .no steel firebox, but a nice lookin' cast stove. The Progress Hybrid does have a steel box, BTW.

Thanks for all the education, I'm enjoying the learning curve. My wife and I are dreaming and envisioning the day when we have that wonderful heat in the old bones that the stove will certainly bring.

Mmm. . .radiant heat. Welcome to the Hearth.