Cat vs. Non-Cat

[Spletz]

Hello all, newbie here.

After seeing other posts, I know you all will want the following before I even pose a question! You are all sticklers for detail which I can appreciate.

Kalamazoo, Michigan (cold, 115" of snowfall this year!)
1965 built ranch, 2200 sq. ft., walkout basement, well-built, very air tight
2 traditional fireplaces (no real heat value!), yet we burn 4 cord a year
Propane heated home
Replacing roof and adding 10" of blow-in next week
Family of four tired of paying propane prices...

Question, I've had two competing fireplace experts come out. Both very well known in the area. One is pushing the Large Flush Hybrid by fireplacextrodinair (Cat), the other a 33 Elite by fireplacextrodinair (non-cat).

I like the added efficiency of the cat, but scared of the costs/warranty/undue added attention and or work/I hear cats need be replaced and attended to an awful lot. We like simple, the cost diff is minimal. Is it true that I'll be replacing/cleaning the cat every few years or so? Is it worth the added efficiency (5% according to the marketing)?

The brand isn't so important as is your thoughts - cat or non cat.

Other particulars, if it helps....

I'm in my 40s, healthy, wood is not an issue (we're on 15 acres wooded).
We are "green", but not so much that the cat's EPA #s sways us.
Have many (8 or so) seasoned and unseasoned cords of hickory, walnut and oak on hand.
We wish to burn 24/7 going forward.
The cat option is 3 cu ft, non-cat is 2.2 (advantage cat).

Looking forward to your sage advice...

 

[avsmusic1]

Isn't there a decent size difference in the fire box on those 2?

 

[Spletz]

Yes. Just edited my initial thread. 3 cu ft Cat, 2.2 for the non-cat.

 

[TimfromMA]

Cat vs non-cat?

Personally, I'm a dog person.

 

[mellow]

Cats are not that much of a burden to use, just don't burn crap like wood with paint on it while the cat is activated. I have found cats to last a minimum of 5 years if treated right, probably longer but I can't say as 5 years is my current first hand knowledge.

I think you would be wanting reviews from actual owners of those inserts rather than fuss about the cat.

 

[Spletz]

Thanks. What ( in general) is the day to day difference in operation? The non-cat seller made it sound like the cat was complicated/required more time and thought (difficult with little ankle bitters running around).

 

[begreen]

Day to day difference will be a bit more caution in what you burn - clean cord wood only, no colored newsprint for starter, etc. And one needs to start the fire with the cat bypass open, then engage when the cat is up to temperature. Not a big deal really and fairly easy to get used to, especially if you are already used to having a stove with a bypass. Cat stoves in general can run longer at a low burn, which can extend burn time in a good design.

 

[mellow]

Day to Day difference would be minimal, I have had both and they run the same except the cat stove burns longer. The main difference is the cat stove has a bypass, you run your fire as normal till you get your cat temperature up to about 600 then close the bypass and throttle your air back, once that is done you are good for 8+ hours.

 

[jeff_t]

Are you talking about real cords? It is Michigan, after all. Four cords is a lot to blow up the chimney.

Mellow is right, you need to hear from users of those units. A general cat vs non-cat discussion doesn't have as much relevance when you already have two specific units in mind.

The difference in burning my two stoves is minimal. The BK takes a little longer to get settled, but it also holds twice as much wood.

 

[Spletz]

Are you talking about real cords? It is Michigan, after all. Four cords is a lot to blow up the chimney.

Mellow is right, you need to hear from users of those units. A general cat vs non-cat discussion doesn't have as much relevance when you already have two specific units in mind.

The difference in burning my two stoves is minimal. The BK takes a little longer to get settled, but it also holds twice as much wood.

Roughly four cord, we like fire! Noting your post, we love Bell's beer, go figure it's just down the road! If the specific model is at issue, where on the site need I go? BK?

 

[Spletz]

Also, liners. Both proposed 6" corregated. I thought I read straight pipe was better. Any opinions?

 

[mellow]

I would search past topics on those two fireplaces, should be plenty on here.

As for the liners both work, rigid insulated would be best if you have a straight chimney, but that is just my 2cents.

 

[Spletz]

Thanks. I did a search on fireplacextrodinair on this site. Got very few applicable threads. Most were gas units. Reviews on the site seemed pretty good however. The lack of commentary on fireplacextrodinair is concerning however. Am I barking up the wrong tree? I'm told they are a top notch firm. Should I be investigating others? Being new to this I don't know who the major players are. I don't know if I'm looking at a JCPenny shotgun or a O/U Perazzi!

 

[mellow]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fpx-avalon-large-flush-wood-hybrid-any-input.88522/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fpx-large-flush-insert.124105/#post-1664524
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fpx-large-flush-insert-failing-help.103455/#post-1336229

And a good one for you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/can-someone-explain-a-hybrid-stove-to-me.91242/

many more out there

 

[Spletz]

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fpx-avalon-large-flush-wood-hybrid-any-input.88522/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fpx-large-flush-insert.124105/#post-1664524
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fpx-large-flush-insert-failing-help.103455/#post-1336229

And a good one for you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/can-someone-explain-a-hybrid-stove-to-me.91242/

many more out there

Thanks very much! What search term did you use? I only got 6 threads.

 

[mellow]

fpx or large hybrid

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Welcome to the forum Spletz.

We can understand your thoughts about cat vs non-cat. We had heard some nightmare stories about cat stoves and some good stories too. But the bad stuff made us decide to go non-cat the last time we shopped for a stove. Long story short, we bought a cat stove. We love it. Added cost? No. There is maintenance on any stove. Added time for maintenance? No. We do clean our cat once or twice per year. It takes only 2-4 minutes to clean the cat so we do not find that a burden.

As Begreen stated, there are only 2 controls on a cat stove. One is for draft, which all stoves have and the other is the bypass. When stating a cold stove, the bypass is left open for a short time then partially closed (partially closing the cat makes the stove heat up faster) until the stove is up to the proper temperature for the catalyst to fire off. This is when the bypass is closed and the draft turned down very low. Most of the time from this point on, you do nothing more with the stove until refill time. Then you open the draft to full open and also open the bypass. Add wood to the stove and wait, usually 10-15 minutes before closing the bypass. Then all is done until reloading time. Burn time will depend upon the stove and the fuel.

Usually the cat stoves are run with less draft and this gives you a bit longer burn time. Also the ability to run a cat stove on low draft is very handy when you don't want full heat but most non-cats like to run at a higher temperature in order for the secondaries to light off. Still, there is not a huge differenct but still very noticeable.

One more point. I noticed that Jeff asked if you were talking about a full cord or a so-called Michigan cord. That is, most people in this state seem to think a stack of wood 4' x 8' is a cord and that is not true! A cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8' or 128 cu. ft. Most in Michigan call a 4' x 8' x 16" a cord but that is only a third of a cord.

In addition, you mentioned seasoned wood. That little word, seasoned, doesn't tell much or anything at all. For instance you mentioned oak. We too live in Michigan and I can tell you oak does not burn worth a hoot until it has been split and stacked out in the wind for 3 years. More if you have the space and time. We burned some 3 year old oak this past winter and while some burned nicely, most could have stood another year. On the other hand, we could cut some soft maple in, say, March and if split immediately and stacked in the wind, it could be burned the following winter. Of course the fire will not last as long as it will burning oak but it is still good wood especially for those that do not have a good supply already drying. Please give this a lot of thought and make sure you have at least enough wood for the coming winter and preferably 2 years worth. Work toward getting 3 years ahead on your wood. You will never be sorry as the stove will work then as it has been designed to work. Burn the wood sooner and most folks blame the stove. It's not usually the stove; it is usually the fuel that causes problems.

Good luck.


EDIT: Don't rule out a free standing stove installed at the fireplace.

 

[TradEddie]

Unless you've done work on your house, it's very very unlikely any house built in 1965 would be considered very air-tight by modern standards... With a very modest amount of effort, I've reduced my propane consumption by 20-30%, I attribute most of that to air-sealing, a little to insulation.

Anyway, to your question, if I ever need to buy a new insert, or switch to 24/7 burning, I'll certainly be getting a cat. Once up to temperature, my house doesn't need a lot of heat even in the single digits of this past winter. Running my non-cat insert cleanly on low output is hard work. I doubt you'll notice the efficiency difference, but you simply cannot run a non-cat cleanly on a low output and get a long burn time, while a cat can apparently be run cleanly at much lower temperatures for longer.

TE

 

[NHcpa]

Jotul firelight w/cat. My experience is the wood has to be dry. I have yet to buy cord wood and have season for 2 years which is ideal. Now with a pellet stove, I will be able to reserve some of my annual 6 cords. I burned wet one year and it killed the cat. since 1998, I have replaced 3x at about $200 a pop. when running optimum, there is just a rolling blue flame that is wonderful to watch knowing I'm at max efficiency.

 

[bobdog2o02]

Roughly four cord, we like fire! Noting your post, we love Bell's beer, go figure it's just down the road! If the specific model is at issue, where on the site need I go? BK?

BK is Blaze King, They manufacture cat stoves with thermostatic dampers.... Set and forget. I replaced an EPA non CAT (tube stove) with a blaze king princess two months ago. I am in love. It pumps out a comparable amount of heat but requires far less tending to it to get the same results.
http://blazeking.com/

 

[NHcpa]

Just want to add, my Jotul is a top loader - love it (picture a beer in one hand and wood in the other with one foot to raise the lid). The newer Jotul non cat has the tubes and is a front loader.

 

[Spletz]

Question. A number of posts discuss the importance of truly seasoned wood. I get it I do. But how is dryness measured? I buy nearly half of the wood I burn, I'd like to know who's BSing me vs honest wood ticks.

 

[BrotherBart]

You misspelled "truly dry wood". Get a cheap moisture meter and re-split a split and take a reading in the center of the spit, with the grain. 20 percent or under and you are good to go.

But you ain't gonna find a wood seller with wood that dry. Figure on buying it one to two years ahead to dry it yourself.

 

[TradEddie]

Question. A number of posts discuss the importance of truly seasoned wood. I get it I do. But how is dryness measured? I buy nearly half of the wood I burn, I'd like to know who's BSing me vs honest wood ticks.

Assume that they're all BS-ing you, wait two years (three for oak or hickory) and you know it's seasoned. Buy a cheap moisture meter ($20-30), take a freshly split face and measure along the grain in the center of the split. Anything over 20% will not make a stove happy, below 18% is ideal.

TE

 

[bobdog2o02]

Question. A number of posts discuss the importance of truly seasoned wood. I get it I do. But how is dryness measured? I buy nearly half of the wood I burn, I'd like to know who's BSing me vs honest wood ticks.

Wood moisture meter.

Can be had from harbor freight for $15. Lots of others available. You split a piece and push the probes from the Meter into the freshly exposed wood. Its that simple