Catalytic converter substitute?

[Benjamminson]

I have a friend’s old Vermont Castings Encore 2550 with the catalytic converter design. He burned some semi-moist wood and cracked the Cat (a second time), so he decided to get a new stove without one. Before he set it outside in the weather, the Cat was removed and discarded.

3-4 years later I decided to try it out. This summer I cleaned up the rusty thing and re-gasketed the easy spots. I have been burning it with the catalytic "slot" wide open. Needless to say, it is drawing too hard and most of the heat is going straight out the 6” chimney pipe out of our yurt (circular wooden home with center ring/dome covered in vinyl coated polyester skin).

I know it’s not recommended, but is there anything I can temporarily put in the Cat’s place to slow the draw? I was thinking fire blanket insulation layered in between pieces of steel lath, with a solid steel sheet metal rectangle on sides, to mimic the dimensions and flow-through of the typical 13x2x2.5" cat converter.

Ideally I would replace the refractory and combuster (refractory is cracked and deteriorated), but the parts will take weeks to get here, and $450+ is a bit out of budget for us. I also don't want to take apart our heat source in the middle of winter, because it was rusted pretty bad and who knows what I'll get into. Right now it burns hot and doesn't leak into the room, so that's great. We do have a kerosene space heater to help heat the 750 sq ft yurt, but the stove should be pumping out a lot more heat. Granted, our walls/ceiling are only reflective insulated, so when the fire goes out the heat doesn't hold at all.

Is there any other ideas for substitute material to slow the flow?
I wish VC made a alternative cast iron piece, but hey that would probably cost the same...
Do you think it's worth spending the $500-700 to rebuild it? That seems like most of a new stove price?
Anyone else have complaints about using a cat system like this? My friend had horrible reviews, but the concept seems great...less fuel, more heat, less smoke.

Thanks for any help

Ben

 

[rwhite]

Not sure of the repercussions of burning with out a cat. Other than it's not burning efficient and your probably wasting enough in wood to pay for it. There is a possibility that something may expand or tweek and the car won't fit when you go to replace it. But to your question, you can add a pipe damper if there's not one.

 

[rwhite]

Oh, you can buy a new Englander NC30 for near the price of fixing that one.

 

[DUMF]

NO Ben. Scrap the Encore, it is not worth the $$$ to fix it. It was great for its time way back in the 90's....not now.
You'd be better off with a simple used non cat stove from CraigsList, or a simple steel smoke dragon rather than that 2550 complex.
Experienced people here will have other ideas well worth considering.

 

[bholler]

It was great for its time way back in the 90's

I totally agree with everything you said but this. They were not great then ether.

 

[DUMF]

I totally agree with everything you said but this. They were not great then ether.

Hey wait. Back then VC had exceptional stoves FOR THE TIME. Here is why-----
The first engineered stove with the clean burn of cats (Defiant Encores).
Top loading convenience.
Well thought out and engineered ash pan.
Wood control handles.
Thermostatic controlled primary air WITH a safety feature, if the SS wire broke it would shut completely.
Long, controlled clean burns, easily 10-16 hours with the right wood splits ( Like BK ! )
Thermostatic secondary air for the cat.
Classic design, copied in many ways now.
The first real consumer enthusiasts ( like Apple ! ) with yearly Vermont parties including microbrews.
And the romantic option to use romantically as a fireplace (screen optional). (Are you romantic ? Check one. )

Older Vigilants and Defiants ( from the 80's) are still on the used market and burning. Durable beasts then and now Holler.

When all systems were operating as designed and engineered, the Encore models were excellent heaters. If not...........PITA.
Then the grand exodus and many incompetent successive owners screwed the brand.

Did you use one to heat your home or were you an authorized dealer ?

 

[Benjamminson]

Hey wait. Back then VC had exceptional stoves FOR THE TIME. Here is why-----
The first engineered stove with the clean burn of cats (Defiant Encores).
Top loading convenience.
Well thought out and engineered ash pan.
Wood control handles.
Thermostatic controlled primary air WITH a safety feature, if the SS wire broke it would shut completely.
Long, controlled clean burns, easily 10-16 hours with the right wood splits ( Like BK ! )
Thermostatic secondary air for the cat.
Classic design, copied in many ways now.
The first real consumer enthusiasts ( like Apple ! ) with yearly Vermont parties including microbrews.
And the romantic option to use romantically as a fireplace (screen optional). (Are you romantic ? Check one. )

Older Vigilants and Defiants ( from the 80's) are still on the used market and burning. Durable beasts then and now Holler.

When all systems were operating as designed and engineered, the Encore models were excellent heaters. If not...........PITA.
Then the grand exodus and many incompetent successive owners screwed the brand.

Did you use one to heat your home or were you an authorized dealer ?

Thanks for the help guys. I'm convinced after these replies and talking to the guys at the stove store. He also recommended a englander nc15 or 30. The price is right. Is there any reason not to get it at Home Depot for 350 cheaper than stove store?
Any other stoves similar in quality / price? The next step at the store was a Jotul f400 castine for $2200 ... cast iron worth it? Better ash situation too.
Thanks for all the help and tips

 

[begreen]

VC's first clean burner, the Resolute Acclaim had all those features, but it also had a fatal flaw in the refractory package. It did not stand up to 24/7 heating. Most owners were doing expensive rebuilds every 3 yrs.. That got expensive and annoying really quick. It destroyed the trust garnered by the previous generation VC stoves.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the help guys. I'm convinced after these replies and talking to the guys at the stove store. He also recommended a englander nc15 or 30. The price is right. Is there any reason not to get it at Home Depot for 350 cheaper than stove store?
Any other stoves similar in quality / price? The next step at the store was a Jotul f400 castine for $2200 ... cast iron worth it? Better ash situation too.
Thanks for all the help and tips

Home Depot sells Englander stoves. You would do well to look at them as an alternative. The 30NC has a good track record. The 13NC is a good stove but it's half the size and it has a very stiff hearth requirement. If that is not an issue then check them out. There are also the Englander 50 SSW01 and 50 SSW02 that are their newest stoves. The 50 SSW01 is also known as the Madison. It's 2.45 cu ft, has close clearances and needs only ember protection for the hearth.

 

[bholler]

Hey wait. Back then VC had exceptional stoves FOR THE TIME. Here is why--

that is one of the main stoves that gave vermont castings and cat stoves as a whole a bad name for a long time

 

[rwhite]

Thanks for the help guys. I'm convinced after these replies and talking to the guys at the stove store. He also recommended a englander nc15 or 30. The price is right. Is there any reason not to get it at Home Depot for 350 cheaper than stove store?
Any other stoves similar in quality / price? The next step at the store was a Jotul f400 castine for $2200 ... cast iron worth it? Better ash situation too.
Thanks for all the help and tips

It all depends on what local service is worth to you. Mom & pop have a tough time matching HD. I don't know if I'd go $350 more but I may ask to split the difference to stay local.

 

[Highbeam]

Long, controlled clean burns, easily 10-16 hours with the right wood splits ( Like BK ! )

Oh no, that's Woodstock territory. 10-16 is only HALF of what BK can do.

 

[DUMF]

Most of the problems that the original VC stoves had were because of the successive buyers of the company.
The products were over engineered for clean, long burns and esthetics, not insignificant when looking at some of the present stoves like BK ( not Ashford BTW). The buyers of VC did little for the rep of excellent customer service, Q.C. in manufacture, and their poor dealer relations for problem solving and bad quality. Look up the accounts here by others of VC history.
Vermont Casting was not "Vermont Castings" for the conglomorates that screwed the name....in my and many others' opinions.
Most of the cat problems with the ORIginal cat stoves were users ( except for the Acclaim debacle). Cats take some extra care and user intelligence ....like BK.
Vermonters and other Easterners loved the ORIGINAL VC.

 

[bholler]

Vermonters and other Easterners loved the ORIGINAL VC.

Yes the original one not the 90s cat stoves like we are talking about. And I don't care who or why vc went down hill all I know is that their stoves were hard for people to run correctly they were hard to work on and their customer service has been spotty at best sometimes it is hard to get parts and other times it is impossible to get parts. I can say it seems their stoves have gotten a little better but still overly complicated.

 

[jharkin]

If you don't properly rebuild that stove and put a cat in it you should scrap it. Without the cat no matter what you do it will be no more efficient than an old Fisher... And harder to control.

See the link in my signature for a step by step of the rebuild process.


VCs reputation was built on the Defiants and Resolutes of the 70s. Those stoves WERE best in class - I grew up on a 79 resolute and my Dad still uses it today!. 90s vintage catalytic models are OK if maintained. Dumf is right about the innovations like dual thermostats and the ash system, however the best burn times I ever saw where around 12hr. Later versions and any of their noncatalytics are a disaster waiting to happen. Jury is still out on the new 2in1 models.

No matter what they do, they will not achieve BK or Woodstock reliability until they drop the top loading feature and eliminate the downdraft design. Basic physics.

 

[Benjamminson]

It's great to hear the backstory on this company, interesting stuff. And thanks for all the tips. Definitely want to get a new stove.

So I'm liking the reviews and price of the englander 30nc. Seems like a solid stove, but definitely utilitarian look.
Any other suggestions for a more attractive steel stove under $1800?

I'm a little nervous about getting a steel stove because I've always been around cast irons . Hopefully it's not to hot/big. It's hard to know the size I need in our yurt because it's only 750 "sq ft", but there is a lot of heat trap up top. the ceiling slopes up from 7' walls on the outside to 14' in the center dome. Also the insulation is very minimal, so that makes me want to oversize the stove. I guess we can always open top vent or have a smaller fire...

 

[rwhite]

It's great to hear the backstory on this company, interesting stuff. And thanks for all the tips. Definitely want to get a new stove.

So I'm liking the reviews and price of the englander 30nc. Seems like a solid stove, but definitely utilitarian look.
Any other suggestions for a more attractive steel stove under $1800?

I'm a little nervous about getting a steel stove because I've always been around cast irons . Hopefully it's not to hot/big. It's hard to know the size I need in our yurt because it's only 750 "sq ft", but there is a lot of heat trap up top. the ceiling slopes up from 7' walls on the outside to 14' in the center dome. Also the insulation is very minimal, so that makes me want to oversize the stove. I guess we can always open top vent or have a smaller fire...

Not many "attractive" steel stoves out there. Beyond some brass embellishments, door frame, parlor legs etc. there's only so much you can do with a steel box. I personally never seen enough difference in steel tube stoves that would sway me from the price of the NC30. That said, make sure you look at the total package price and not just the stove. One stove may be more expensive, but require less r-value so you can save on the hearth a bit. I doubt you'll find a decent cast stove under the 1800 mark unless you go used.

 

[DUMF]

To the O.P. Your yurt is your permanent home ?
If not, look over CraigsList for a good simple solid steel stove with a recommended rep from people here. There are many.
But if the yurt is your real home with flush, hot water, insulation, and a TempurPedic bed, then get a wood stove that will heat you for years.
Plenty of comments from the experienced online: Jotul, PE, Woodstock, Hearthstone, Morso....even the enthusiasts' BK which according to owners will not only heat you forever on a single stick of pine, but it will enhance your romantic life, extend what life you have left, blow your nose in the cold, and provide you with friends for life. ( Just kidding BKVP ).

 

[jharkin]

I'm a little nervous about getting a steel stove because I've always been around cast irons . Hopefully it's not to hot/big. It's hard to know the size I need in our yurt because it's only 750 "sq ft", but there is a lot of heat trap up top. the ceiling slopes up from 7' walls on the outside to 14' in the center dome. Also the insulation is very minimal, so that makes me want to oversize the stove. I guess we can always open top vent or have a smaller fire...

That is a tricky one... Normally an NC30 would be WAAAY too much stove for 750sq ft in VA, even minimally insulated, and would likely turn the place into a sauna. A big capacity cat stove (BK, Woodstock) would be a little more manageable as it can burn slower but still might get you guys quite hot at times. If you like sitting in 85F inside this is no big deal, if not....

Can you install a big ceiling fan in the center of the building - set to blow air up? Keep it on low and it will setup a convection current that pushes air up in the middle and down the outside walls that will help to blend the air mass and circulate some of that heat that traps in the ceiling.

 

[JA600L]

Put a damper in the stove pipe and when you can get a better stove.