Chimney Fire!

[wooduser]

For me . . . I try to sweep once a month, although I sometimes skip a month. I do this only because a) it is ridiculously easy for me to do so as I can sweep from the bottom-up in what is perhaps a 10 minute job and b) I know if I ever had a chimney fire the guys at work would never let me hear the end of it.

Your buddies at work might be the first to learn of your misfortune, too ---- firefighterjake!

What do they have to say about wood stoves at the fire house? And what do you have to say about them after you've rolled on house and chimney fires?

I imagine "Don't burn unseasoned wood" and "sweep more often" are popular themes? What else?


Seattle Pioneer

 

[wooduser]

Growing up dad cleaned our massive brick chimney once a month, usually getting about 5 gallons of chunky creosote out. Had one small chimney fire in 40 years. Stove is still going and is a massive double door fisher clone, has to be at least 4 cu ft.

So what causes all the creosote?" Sounds like a grossly oversized stove?

 

[wooduser]

I got those numbers from many years of experience and training in the feild

That's what I said --- it appears that people look at the damage in a stove and then guess what temperature might cause damage. That's what Xperts commonly do, but it's not really science.

<<And i have already told you the temperatures that you are looking for. I didnt just make them up.


Perhaps you didn't make those number up, but it appears someone did. Not really based upon science that I have been able to find, but more on distilled experience or Xpert opinion. Again, we very commonly rely on and use such opinion for many purposes.

But it helps account for the wide variability of advice I find on this interesting forum. People develop their own style of operating their fireplace. Some styles may be good, and others not so much. Opinions will vary after all.

And considering all the styles of stove, styles of operating stoves, variability in wood supplies and such, it seems likely enough that you can't improve on that a lot.

 

[bholler]

That's what I said --- it appears that people look at the damage in a stove and then guess what temperature might cause damage. That's what Xperts commonly do, but it's not really science.

<<And i have already told you the temperatures that you are looking for. I didnt just make them up.


Perhaps you didn't make those number up, but it appears someone did. Not really based upon science that I have been able to find, but more on distilled experience or Xpert opinion. Again, we very commonly rely on and use such opinion for many purposes.

But it helps account for the wide variability of advice I find on this interesting forum. People develop their own style of operating their fireplace. Some styles may be good, and others not so much. Opinions will vary after all.

And considering all the styles of stove, styles of operating stoves, variability in wood supplies and such, it seems likely enough that you can't improve on that a lot.

What makes you think those numbers were just made up by someone? You do realize there are stoves which give you overfire temps right? The temperature at which plate steel starts to deform is known. The temp at which the temper of diferent alloys starts to change is known. It isnt to hard to apply that to stoves to determine what an over fire is.

Not to mention all modern stoves go through very extensive testing to determine the safe parameters they can be operated under. How do you think they come up with clearance requirements? That testing isnt done at normal operating temps. It is done for worst case scenario.

 

[Dakotas Dad]

I'm not sure.. but I think this is an argument, looking for attendees.. I'm out.

 

[bholler]

Well.. I have to go by what my stove manual tells me.. and that is that an "overfire" situation is happening when the stove top, surface temperature, when measured at the center of the center top stone, exceeds 600F. By my manual, 3-400F is a "low burn", 4-500F is a "medium burn", and 5-600F is a "high burn", as measured on that stone. No way in heck am I ever going to see 5-600F surface temps with an internal flue temp of 600F.

Right at this very moment, these are MY readings, on MY stove. 3 hours after a 3 split load was added to the over night coals, (10 hour burn, house stayed 72F with 30F and windy outside) My internal PROBE is reading about 575F, Surface temp on the offset box is 314F and the stove top is at 394F, coming down from a climb to about 425F an hour after I reloaded (from 260F stove top when I got up). Secondaries are firing, air is down to about 30%.

I don't know if a 6 year old Hearthstone still counts as a "modern stove".. nor do I seem to know what the OP is actually running, But I seriously doubt, again, that you can get a stove top surface temp to 600F, with a 600F probe temp. Modern stove or otherwise.


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Yes those are the temps for your stove the way you are measuring them. He has an old pre epa stove and is measuring internam flue temp. For him 600 internal is fine.

 

[Ludlow]

Grew up with two open masonry fireplaces. Burned the livin' crap out of them for decades. Never cleaned them not once. No need. They were clean.

 

[bholler]

Grew up with two open masonry fireplaces. Burned the livin' crap out of them for decades. Never cleaned them not once. No need. They were clean.

That is not possible. They were either cleaned without you knowing it or they were burnt out periodically. You simply cannot burn wood especially in an open fireplace without leaving deposits that will eventually need cleaned.

 

[firefighterjake]

Your buddies at work might be the first to learn of your misfortune, too ---- firefighterjake! Fortunately I don't live in the same town where I work . . . but it's Maine . . . and word can get around pretty quickly.

What do they have to say about wood stoves at the fire house? And what do you have to say about them after you've rolled on house and chimney fires? Many have woodstoves themselves so we occasionally will chat about stoves and burning wood. Most firefighters here don't mind 'em . . . as long as folks do just what you said . . . it's the folks who do just the opposite that we tend to see. In the first fire department I joined as a volunteer there was one resident whom we would "visit" at least once a year . . . usually in middle of the night in the middle of a blizzard . . . least aways it seemed that way.

I imagine "Don't burn unseasoned wood" and "sweep more often" are popular themes? What else?


Seattle Pioneer

 

[Ludlow]

That is not possible. They were either cleaned without you knowing it or they were burnt out periodically. You simply cannot burn wood especially in an open fireplace without leaving deposits that will eventually need cleaned.

Shows how much you know. I know for a FACT that my Dad NEVER swept those chimneys. Would you want about 6 testimonials from my family?

 

[bholler]

Shows how much you know. I know for a FACT that my Dad NEVER swept those chimneys. Would you want about 6 testimonials from my family?

Then they were burnt out or were not clean. Again you cannot burn wood without leaving deposits that will need cleaned. Especially in an open fireplace.

 

[Ludlow]

There may have been a little soot here and there, but there was never any thickness of deposits. We ran liners down them after about 35 years of burning and there was literally nothing to spend effort on cleaning. He never let a fire burn down and smolder. Always a rager. We called his fires "barn-burners". Im sure that cooked any thin soot into ash on a revolving basis. He was adamant about only burning dry hardwoods. We werent ever allowed to burn any conifers or scrap lumber or more than enough paper to get it started. I always wondered why people hired chimney sweeps because we never did.

 

[bholler]

There may have been a little soot here and there, but there was never any thickness of deposits. We ran liners down them after about 35 years of burning and there was literally nothing to spend effort on cleaning. He never let a fire burn down and smolder. Always a rager. We called his fires "barn-burners". Im sure that cooked any thin soot into ash on a revolving basis. He was adamant about only burning dry hardwoods. We werent ever allowed to burn any conifers or scrap lumber or more than enough paper to get it started. I always wondered why people hired chimney sweeps because we never did.

Ok so your parents chimneys somehow defied the laws physics and nature. I can tell you after years of doing this i have never seen a fireplace that cleaned itself. Especially not the smoke shelf.

 

[Ludlow]

So the deposits cooked off then. But it was on a continual limited basis due to his burning habits. His fires would be so large that you could tell that the flames were going a foot above the damper. I am laughing thinking back.

 

[bholler]

So the deposits cooked off then. But it was on a continual limited basis due to his burning habits. His fires would be so large that you could tell that the flames were going a foot above the damper. I am laughing thinking back.

So yes the chimney was cleaned by burning it out. Not a safe strategy

 

[Ludlow]

So yes the chimney was cleaned by burning it out. Not a safe strategy

Certainly not if you burn softwoods or wets or lumber in a smoldering fashion for years and then decide to go nuclear. That is indeed a recipe for disaster. The trick is to burn hot all the time. Even if it means your family refuses to sit in the livingroom because they all get sunburned.

 

[bholler]

Certainly not if you burn softwoods or wets or lumber in a smoldering fashion for years and then decide to go nuclear. That is indeed a recipe for disaster. The trick is to burn hot all the time. Even if it means your family refuses to sit in the livingroom because they all get sunburned.

Never mind you simply dont get it. To everyone else you need to clean your chimney burning it out is very unsafe. As is having fires in an open fireplace large enough to send flames through the damper.

 

[Ludlow]

Never mind you simply dont get it. To everyone else you need to clean your chimney burning it out is very unsafe. As is having fires in an open fireplace large enough to send flames through the damper.

No danger of that anymore.

 

[bholler]

There is also absolutly no danger in burning soft woods. Despite the common myth they do not create any more creosote than hardwoods.

 

[Ctwoodtick]

In my experience, I’d have the chimney pro swept annually when using the open fireplace. He’d say “ wow, you’re burning some dry wood” or “ you really know what you’re doing”. Then he’d sweep chimney and a bunch of soot would come out. Not excessive but it needed it. The take away for me was that the cleanings were a given.

 

[bholler]

In my experience, I’d have the chimney pro swept annually when using the open fireplace. He’d say “ wow, you’re burning some dry wood” or “ you really know what you’re doing”. Then he’d sweep chimney and a bunch of soot would come out. Not excessive but it needed it. The take away for me was that the cleanings were a given.

Most open fireplaces we service only need cleaned every 3 to 5 years. Most simply dont get used that much. But we have some we clean multiple times a year as well.

 

[wooduser]

What makes you think those numbers were just made up by someone?

Haven't seen any documentation to prove otherwise.

<< You do realize there are stoves which give you overfire temps right?

Great! Please give me a few makes and model numbers. I'll look up the product information. Doesn't help with those that don't provide such information though.

In the absence of being able to see the documentation on such things, it doesn't exist.

<< The temperature at which plate steel starts to deform is known. The temp at which the temper of different alloys starts to change is known. It isnt to hard to apply that to stoves to determine what an over fire is.

Not to mention all modern stoves go through very extensive testing to determine the safe parameters they can be operated under. How do you think they come up with clearance requirements? That testing isnt done at normal operating temps. It is done for worst case scenario.


Oh, I believe then testing is thorough and comes up with good numbers.

The problem is, they don;t show them to the public. If they don;t show us the numbers, the numbers don't exist. Not for consumers who need guidance on how to operate their stoves.

You can;t refer me to testing that's not public and that I can't look up. You seem like an honest guy, but you apparently are inclined to believe stuff just because someone tells you. I'm not. (actually, I do but I don't like it.)


Don't you think it's unhelpful if not deceitful to sell someone a stove for $5,000, hand them an operating manual that tells them not to "overfire" the stove and disclaims any warranty if the stove is overfired, but no where tell someone the objective limits that define overfiring?

One stove I looked up that someone was talking about said not to add fuel "above the line of the firebricks." Now, they didn't SAY that adding fuel beyond that limit might cause an overfiring condition, but it was objective guidance people were given by the manufacturer. That's a LOT better than NOTHING in my view.

Now I'm inclined to stop in at a stove shop or two and torture the sales reps with these questions and see what they say!

 

[bholler]

Haven't seen any documentation to prove otherwise.

<< You do realize there are stoves which give you overfire temps right?

Great! Please give me a few makes and model numbers. I'll look up the product information. Doesn't help with those that don't provide such information though.

In the absence of being able to see the documentation on such things, it doesn't exist.

<< The temperature at which plate steel starts to deform is known. The temp at which the temper of different alloys starts to change is known. It isnt to hard to apply that to stoves to determine what an over fire is.

Not to mention all modern stoves go through very extensive testing to determine the safe parameters they can be operated under. How do you think they come up with clearance requirements? That testing isnt done at normal operating temps. It is done for worst case scenario.


Oh, I believe then testing is thorough and comes up with good numbers.

The problem is, they don;t show them to the public. If they don;t show us the numbers, the numbers don't exist. Not for consumers who need guidance on how to operate their stoves.

You can;t refer me to testing that's not public and that I can't look up. You seem like an honest guy, but you apparently are inclined to believe stuff just because someone tells you. I'm not. (actually, I do but I don't like it.)


Don't you think it's unhelpful if not deceitful to sell someone a stove for $5,000, hand them an operating manual that tells them not to "overfire" the stove and disclaims any warranty if the stove is overfired, but no where tell someone the objective limits that define overfiring?

One stove I looked up that someone was talking about said not to add fuel "above the line of the firebricks." Now, they didn't SAY that adding fuel beyond that limit might cause an overfiring condition, but it was objective guidance people were given by the manufacturer. That's a LOT better than NOTHING in my view.

Now I'm inclined to stop in at a stove shop or two and torture the sales reps with these questions and see what they say!

What exactly is it you are looking for here? You have been provided with the information you asked for. I have much better things to do than research a suject i already know just to provide you with some documentation.

 

[vwmike]

Not sure if the news ones do, but the older pacific energy stoves had stickers on them stating that if any part of the stove glows they consider that overfiring, seems pretty simple to me.

 

[wooduser]

What exactly is it you are looking for here? You have been provided with the information you asked for. I have much better things to do than research a suject i already know just to provide you with some documentation.

Ahhh... you researched the subject and satisfied yourself as to the facts. I would like to do the same thing.

It appears that the facts about different stoves are, in fact, probably known through testing agencies and such. They just keep that information confidential and away from consumers. Personally, I don't find that satisfactory.

It certainly isn't your responsibility to answer such inquiries, it's the responsibility of the manufacturers and the dealers who sell the equipment.

I may wind up going in to a stove shop or two and asking these questions of the sales reps, and see what they have to say.

I've appreciated your considerable efforts to answer my questions on several different threads, bholler. That's been very helpful.

Thank you!