Choosing a Stove/Insert

[avsmusic1]

My family and I moved to a new home late this past summer. As the weather has shifted here in CT the one thing about our old house I've been missing is the wood stove. We had a Regency i2400 insert and I loved burning it nights or weekends. Now that Covid has me working from home (through at least July 2021) I'd be using a stove that much more.

The stove is going in an existing fireplace or on the hearth in front of it, and we're open to inserts or freestanding. The house is 2700sqft and the room the stove goes in has vaulted ceilings, an external chimney, and is on one corner of the 1st floor. Suffice it to say, we're not using it as a primary heater to be run 24/7. It's supplemental and likely more of a first floor heater when running. We have 2 thermostats/zones so I could see us using it to avoid burning oil on the 1st floor during the day for as long as I'm working from home.

Right now I'm kind of torn between 2 fairly different options.
1. Fireplace Xtrordinair / Lopi Large flush insert
2. Woodstock progress hydrid (sitting on hearth and rear ducted through chimney)

The insert requires no shift to our hearth setup so it's pretty much plug and play but gives us a great looking stove with very little hassle. The Woodstock is notably more efficient, better burn times, better reviews, "softer" soapstone heat, etc. BUT it would require me to replace the mantle with something non-combustible.

Aesthetics matter and I'm inclined to get the biggest stove I can without augmenting the hearth (with potential exception of mantle). Are there other stoves I should be looking at or a clear reason to elect one of these over the other that I'm just not seeing? Anyone else have one of these, loving it, and simply couldn't fathom considering an alternative? I'm trying to upload pics of the space and floorplan

Thanks in advance all!

 

[avsmusic1]

 

[EatenByLimestone]

How big is the hearth in front of the fireplace?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

have you measured the fireplace to make sure they'd fit?

 

[avsmusic1]

 

[avsmusic1]

I believe both will fit w/ the except for mantle tolerances on any freestanding

 

[Fiddlerbob]

I'm loving my new Blaze King Princess insert. It sticks out into the room a bit so it isn't 'flush' but neither is it free-standing. Kind of a bit of both. You might consider one of those.

 

[Starbrightsteve]

Last year about this time I bought Lopi’s large flush insert. It’s a so called hybrid. I’m starting to think this was a $5500 mistake. My chimney is 15’ straight up from the top of the insert through an insulated liner that includes a 4’ section of class above the end of the liner. I’m burning mostly ash that has been split and under cover for 2.5 years. I offer this info for the “experts” that will blame my problems on bad draft and wet wood. I have been heating ,not supplementing, with wood for 45 years. We recently sold our farm and cows and moved to a one story house on an acre.
If I fill the stove with wood for the night, I give the stove the maximum amount of combustion air and there are always coals in the morning. Lots of coals. Too many coals. I need to clean charcoal and ash every three days. With the Quadrafire in the farmhouse I cleaned the stove out every three weeks. Even giving the stove maximum combustion air, the glass is carboned up the first day after cleaning the glass. When I start a fire or reload it after dying down to coals I leave the door unlatched long enough to get the blower going and when I latch the door, the fire dies down to the smallest flame. While the blower is fairly quiet, it blows air directly above the front door such that if you open the door even with the bypass open, it will draw flue gas out the slightly opened door.
If you would like to buy a Lopi large flush insert I’ll give you a great deal on mine and deliver it to you. You will have to unload it , it’s heavy!
I suggest you buy a free standing stove and brick/stone- up your fireplace. I think blowers are unnecessary. I never had or needed a blower in my first 45 years of wood burning. Oh and let me know if I’ve convinced you to buy my woodburner

 

[begreen]

Based on the floorplan it doesn't look like the insert or stove will heat much besides the family room. It's a tough layout for an area heater. It also looks like the heat is going to get trapped in the ceiling peak without a ceiling fan.

 

[avsmusic1]

Appreciate the input
We do have a ceiling fan in that room and the opening to the rest of the space (kitchen mostly) is decent. When we work from home we are typically at a table in the kitchen right off the heated room or the dining room right beyond the kitchen (straight shot). Hopefully we can at least heat those spaces? This picture is with the fireplace my back

 

[Solarguy3500]

You mentioned that you are looking for a large size stove or insert based on the square footage of the house (2700). My house is the same square footage and as I did my research, I came to find that most 2020 EPA certified large inserts have a firebox in the range of 2.5-3.0 cu ft. Then I discovered the Osburn 3500 insert with a 3.5 cu ft firebox. It's not a flush mount so it protrudes out a few inches. I started a thread on here of my install and will be updating it as the project moves along.

Before you replace your mantel, talk to your local inspector that will be issuing your permit. My mantel is similar to yours in that it is closer than the required clearance in the Osburn manual. Before I purchased the insert, I called my local inspector and talked to him about it. He told me that by installing a heat shield made of a non-combustible material such as metal on the bottom of the mantel separated by spacers, I could cut the clearance in half. I was going to make a heat shield myself, but then I discovered that you can buy them from Amazon. The one I got is Meecos Red Devil and it comes with the screws and ceramic spacers to install it on the mantel.

 

[EbS-P]

Given the layout and you were open to a free standing stove I would lean toward a more radiant stove. When you have it burning you want to feel the heat. Same reasoning would keep me leaning away from soapstone but they do look amazing. I changed my mind. 27” height opening limits your stove choices considerably. Insert is the way to go. Flush I steer will look great with the tall brick.
Evan

 

[begreen]

Appreciate the input
We do have a ceiling fan in that room and the opening to the rest of the space (kitchen mostly) is decent. When we work from home we are typically at a table in the kitchen right off the heated room or the dining room right beyond the kitchen (straight shot). Hopefully we can at least heat those spaces? This picture is with the fireplace my back
View attachment 268687

The ceiling fan will help, but still, between the two rooms, there is only about 550 sq ft. The layout of this floor is not great for wood heat unless there was a second stove in the living room. This may not be all that important if the main goal is ambiance and some supplemental heating. Is there a room above the garage that needs heat?

 

[gr8shot]

With that layout, I'd opt for something much smaller. A big stove to heat basically one room will make that room miserably hot. You're after basically a small space heater, not a whole house heater. I installed an osburn 2400. A giant insert that does protrude out about 8" from the fireplace. And it has a large blower. This unit will heat our whole 1800 sqft two story house with the help of one box fan to circulate air. A unit like this to heat 1-2 rooms would be a huge waste of wood and money. It takes a lot of wood and heat to get this big stove up to temp. And once it's hot, it really pours out the btu's. A much smaller stove would be in your best interest to heat the area, but not make it unbearable.

 

[sadpanda]

I had a BK princess... Very good heater. I think a freestander would make that space feel awfully cramped, better to stick with insert.

Few tips on insert for maximum efficiency: Fabricate a block off plate for the chimney and a reflective shroud for the back side (welded steel frame, fiber cement backer board, automotive foil faced heat shield). Either cut slots in the trim plates or leave a gap so all this back side heat can get into the room. Also if there is room, raise the stove off the floor of the firebox with some blocks to create an air gap, even if its only an inch. I had an exterior masonry chimney like yours and the first winter I was seeing 80F on the OUTSIDE of the masonry in 30F weather! I was also seeing 200+ temps on the masonry above the stove... After the above modifications I was down to 15F above ambient outside and getting much more heat in the house.

RE: difficulty heating the whole house... I was heating a leaky under insulated 1800 sq ft split level jobbie no problem. 2700 might be tough. As asked by others, how does the vault relate to the second story? Princess runs better turned down anyway so maybe run it for a year and see how it does... There are a number of passive/active duct tricks you can add to the mix once you figure out how the house responds. Again as stated, with that vault, the living room may benefit from a small direct vent propane or pellet stove. Having fuel variety is always a plus.

 

[avsmusic1]

The ceiling fan will help, but still, between the two rooms, there is only about 550 sq ft. The layout of this floor is not great for wood heat unless there was a second stove in the living room. This may not be all that important if the main goal is ambiance and some supplemental heating. Is there a room above the garage that needs heat?

There is a guest bedroom/kids playroom (mostly kids) over the garage that could certainly use the heat but isn't a must. It may also be worth noting that our entry way byt he front door is open to the 2nd floor. Basically the square on the bottom center of 1st floor layout including the stairs. It's a vaulted ceiling as well and opens to the hall the bedrooms attach to. I'll upload some additional pictures shortly to help. Are you thinking I shouldn't go big? A 2nd stove in the LR isn't in the cards right now but could be in a few years. We're really not looking to burn 24/7, but the option would be nice

With that layout, I'd opt for something much smaller. A big stove to heat basically one room will make that room miserably hot. You're after basically a small space heater, not a whole house heater. I installed an osburn 2400. A giant insert that does protrude out about 8" from the fireplace. And it has a large blower. This unit will heat our whole 1800 sqft two story house with the help of one box fan to circulate air. A unit like this to heat 1-2 rooms would be a huge waste of wood and money. It takes a lot of wood and heat to get this big stove up to temp. And once it's hot, it really pours out the btu's. A much smaller stove would be in your best interest to heat the area, but not make it unbearable.

This is part of the reason i like the soapstone freestander idea - especially the hybrid. I've never had a stove with a cat but I'm thinking that combo would give me the flexibility for long moderate burns that wont cook me out of the room. Also, note the point i made above about the open space by the front door that would help direct some heat upstairs

I had a BK princess... Very good heater. I think a freestander would make that space feel awfully cramped, better to stick with insert.

Few tips on insert for maximum efficiency: Fabricate a block off plate for the chimney and a reflective shroud for the back side (welded steel frame, fiber cement backer board, automotive foil faced heat shield). Either cut slots in the trim plates or leave a gap so all this back side heat can get into the room. Also if there is room, raise the stove off the floor of the firebox with some blocks to create an air gap, even if its only an inch. I had an exterior masonry chimney like yours and the first winter I was seeing 80F on the OUTSIDE of the masonry in 30F weather! I was also seeing 200+ temps on the masonry above the stove... After the above modifications I was down to 15F above ambient outside and getting much more heat in the house.

RE: difficulty heating the whole house... I was heating a leaky under insulated 1800 sq ft split level jobbie no problem. 2700 might be tough. As asked by others, how does the vault relate to the second story? Princess runs better turned down anyway so maybe run it for a year and see how it does... There are a number of passive/active duct tricks you can add to the mix once you figure out how the house responds. Again as stated, with that vault, the living room may benefit from a small direct vent propane or pellet stove. Having fuel variety is always a plus.

Thanks. I've been reading up on mellow's thread about insulating the fireplace but clearly have more research to do on how to get the most out of whatever option I choose

 

[avsmusic1]

 

[begreen]

This is part of the reason i like the soapstone freestander idea - especially the hybrid. I've never had a stove with a cat but I'm thinking that combo would give me the flexibility for long moderate burns that wont cook me out of the room. Also, note the point i made above about the open space by the front door that would help direct some heat upstairs

On paper, it looks like the amount of heat that will make it that far will be small. The floor plan is not very conducive to natural convection. How does the heat get over there without assistance?

 

[spudman99]

I am very familiar with floor plans such as yours (being in the RE field) and myself have a 2800 sf center hall colonial. I do not have the vaulted ceiling in the family room which in your case will become a significant heat trap. I have some suggestions for you to chew on.

1. Last year I installed a BK Princess Insert and am loving it for the cost savings and keeping the FR/Kitchen in the 72 deg range with ease. My early 1980's Toll Brothers home is not well insulated and I have quite a bit of loss thru the side walls. When my FR is 72, my bedroom upstairs (similar to your room over the garage) is 64 at best. I would not expect to heat your 2nd floor with an insert at all, with fans on the first floor you might get the living room warm, definitely the kitchen tho.

2. You could consider installing a wall transfer fan at the top of the vault, which would move hot air from that section to the 2nd floor, possibly aiding in air movement and more even heating. I cannot comment on code compliance of these units but when thermostatically controlled can be of assistance.

3. My final piece of advice is that if you are seriously considering an insert, PLEASE start your wood collection now. Cut and split 2-3 cords of ash or whatever is close to you. Buy a cord now and let it sit off the ground covered and split for next year. You can never have too much wood. Once you go to the dark side with a wood stove, you will start using it more and more and the need for wood will increase. If you already have several cords set aside, then good for you. If not heed my words, you will not regret that.

 

[avsmusic1]

On paper, it looks like the amount of heat that will make it that far will be small. The floor plan is not very conducive to natural convection. How does the heat get over there without assistance?

I don't disagree with your assessment of my floorplan and I trust your expertise more than what I think might happen - hence why I'm here. I suppose I just presumed my layout, while far from ideal, was typical/common enough that surely there are viable solutions without heavy retrofitting. We have wide doorways and the stove will face the adjacent space. I'd imagine some type of fan(s) from the stove room - either a blower on the insert and/or top mount fans on freestanding coupled with ceiling fan in the heated room. Also, the heat from our forced hot air system naturally flows up from the kitchen area to front anyway. While I'm certainly no expert in thermodynamics, the current flow of air seems to suggest heat will head to the front door and upstairs.

That being said, if putting a large stove in that space would most likely results in a family room that's too hot, kitchen that's just right, and LR and DR that are too cold - then i want to rethink the option. I don't expect the heat to be consistent, but I'd hope the coolest room in the first floor is upper 60s at least.

 

[avsmusic1]

I am very familiar with floor plans such as yours (being in the RE field) and myself have a 2800 sf center hall colonial. I do not have the vaulted ceiling in the family room which in your case will become a significant heat trap. I have some suggestions for you to chew on.

1. Last year I installed a BK Princess Insert and am loving it for the cost savings and keeping the FR/Kitchen in the 72 deg range with ease. My early 1980's Toll Brothers home is not well insulated and I have quite a bit of loss thru the side walls. When my FR is 72, my bedroom upstairs (similar to your room over the garage) is 64 at best. I would not expect to heat your 2nd floor with an insert at all, with fans on the first floor you might get the living room warm, definitely the kitchen tho.

2. You could consider installing a wall transfer fan at the top of the vault, which would move hot air from that section to the 2nd floor, possibly aiding in air movement and more even heating. I cannot comment on code compliance of these units but when thermostatically controlled can be of assistance.

View attachment 268735

3. My final piece of advice is that if you are seriously considering an insert, PLEASE start your wood collection now. Cut and split 2-3 cords of ash or whatever is close to you. Buy a cord now and let it sit off the ground covered and split for next year. You can never have too much wood. Once you go to the dark side with a wood stove, you will start using it more and more and the need for wood will increase. If you already have several cords set aside, then good for you. If not heed my words, you will not regret that.

Toll brothers has built a bunch of the homes in my area so, yes, very similar. Ours isn't a toll brothers house but I think it's a good, well known, proxy. I'll definitely think about the fan piece and I already have some "starter wood". I have a good friend who has taken down a bunch of trees on his land and has ~5cords of red oak that was split 2-3 years ago. He's offered me up to 2 to get me started b/c he's currently splitting more than he's burning (he uses a cord or so a year for supplemental heat).

My old house was a center hall colonial but built in the 20s so fairly drafty with no wall insulation and very sectioned off. We didn't use it when temps were below ~20 because of those factors. That said, when the temp was 32, our regency insert with 2.2cu ft firebox would keep the first floor 65-85 depending on room. My thinking was our newer house is a larger space with an outside wall fireplace and vaulted ceiling(s), but it's walls are insulated with a more open floorplan. I was hopeful that a larger stove that's a bit more efficient would perform better in the new space. When i say "better" i define that as slightly less variance between rooms or similar performance but in colder temps. Our 1st floor thermostat is in the DR and set at 66 during the work day.

 

[gr8shot]

Unfortunately with your layout, heathing the whole downstairs is going to be a tall task, and in my experience would need several fans to create a circular flow near your family room. In my house, our downstairs is two main rooms, a long living room, and a long kitchen/dining room. The two are separated by a middle wall, with a doorway on either end. So in my case, one fan creates enough circular airflow that the heat from the fireplace is moved around the first floor pretty easily. However we also have a porch/mudroom off the kitchen via a doorway. We don't have a fan going to that area, and even with the door open there's not near as much heat movement as one would expect. With all ceiling fans on, and the box fan circulating air, our living room will be around 80*, kitchen around 74*, and porch around 68*.

In your case, I'd definitely invest in 3-4 small fans to have in each doorway to create some circular airflow from room to room. You'll have to blow air out of your family room and into the kitchen area. Then choose to either circulate it clockwise down to your front door and stairs, then over to your living room, and up to the dining room, or the opposite. But without significant help from several fans, virtually zero of the heat from the wood stove would reach the living room or dining room.

Other option that may or may not help would be to run the fan on your furnace with the heat turned off. That could help move air around the house, unsure of how effective it would be though.

 

[EbS-P]

would most likely results in a family room that's too hot, kitchen that's just right, and LR and DR that are too cold

That describes most of my experiences with wood stoves everywhere but a very open concept space. Sure you can run a big stove to keep the living room warm but comfortable. Smaller loads of lower btu wood. Tank tops and flip flops can be in your wardrobe yearlong Be I think you are being realistic with expectations. If it’s in your budget I say get what you want. Can it heat the whole house, nope. Can it heat some of it, sure.
I was unsure if I could heat my whole house. I thought it was doubtful. Well it turns out that it can for more than 50 % of our winter may be 80%. The coldest twenty % we would have bedrooms 60 or colder but that’s what they were before. (Thanks heatpump ). But now I just switch to resistive strips and still feel good about my choices. I even insisted on in floor electric heat for our bathroom remodel. And i use it.
just my thoughts.
Evan

 

[begreen]

That being said, if putting a large stove in that space would most likely results in a family room that's too hot, kitchen that's just right, and LR and DR that are too cold - then i want to rethink the option. I don't expect the heat to be consistent, but I'd hope the coolest room in the first floor is upper 60s at least.

That is exactly how it looks to me unless something assists the convection loop as drawn. Perhaps a 12" stand fan near the LR opening to the kitchen will help if blowing toward the stove room. Or.... is there a basement in which a ducted fan system could be installed? It would pull air from the LR and blow it into the stove room.

 

[avsmusic1]

That is exactly how it looks to me unless something assists the convection loop as drawn. Perhaps a 12" stand fan near the LR opening to the kitchen will help if blowing toward the stove room. Or.... is there a basement in which a ducted fan system could be installed? It would pull air from the LR and blow it into the stove room.

No such luck on the basement.
Do you see this being the case regardless of stove? Treating size as a constant, would this issue be the same regardless of freestanding/insert, steal/soapstone, no-cat/hybrid/cat? I've only ever used a standard steal stove this exact issue was why I was looking at soapstone and/or cat and hybrid options.