Circuits? what would you add? how many is too many?

[Groo]

Helping Dad figure out a boiler system for his retirement home. He definitely wants wood heat. preferably an indoor boiler.

My house is hot water heat from LP
I've got upstairs, downstairs and indirect hot water for circuits.

For the new place I was thinking drastically more circuits:
Upstairs
Basement
possibly an indirect hot water tank
green house
garage
apron in front of garage to melt ice(may never get used, but easier to install it and not need it...)
hot tub
possibly even a circuit for the central stone chimney

does anyone make thermal storage tanks larger than indirect hot water tanks?

 

[Karl_northwind]

Yes, all of the above is possible. depending on what you want to do, larger tanks can be fabricated or purchased. another option is a boiler that doesn't need external buffer tanks. they're kind of disregarded here, but depending on the application, they can be easier to install and put in a dedicated space or outdoors.
I sell and install this equipment, so I'm not going to say brands here. but a couple of clicks can get you to options. system design gets easier when you have 180 degree water available all the time, rather than having to design a system to work with varying water temperatures that are present in storage based systems.

hope that helps.

 

[peakbagger]

The current approach is to run room by room individual home run circuits run from a common header using low temperature radiant emitters to maximize effective storage volume. The individual emitters can either be zoned or can be controlled with a local thermostat. Storage volume is only storage until the point where the emitter cant support it. Typical slant fin is typically designed for 140 °F minimum temp to 180 °F max temp. Put in low temp emitters that will heat with 100 °F minimum and it will effectively double the storage capacity. There is also progress being made on air source and small geothermal, both are more efficient with low temp emitters (120 °F is a typical max temp.

If you go with gravity storage, American Solar Technics can make any size tank you want. He is member on this site. The tanks come in foam blocks that are assembled like legos and then screwed together so they can go through a normal door and be assembled in place. They are square or rectangular so they take up less space. The are made out of foam so they are already insulated. Pressurized tanks tend to be standard cylindrical size and need access to insulate. They take up more room for a given volume.

Here is link to free on line course on biomass heating given by the generally recognized number one expert on biomass heating in the US
https://www.heatspring.com/courses/...iciency-biomass-boilers-sponsored-by-nyserda/
I have taken his paid course in the past and its gets into more detail but the free one should give you lots of ideas and the price is right.

 

[hobbyheater]

Go with a Garn 2000 and low temperature emitters .

 

[Groo]

Go with a Garn 2000 and low temperature emitters .

Garn doesn't play well with basement installs.

 

[maple1]

Yes, all of the above is possible. depending on what you want to do, larger tanks can be fabricated or purchased. another option is a boiler that doesn't need external buffer tanks. they're kind of disregarded here, but depending on the application, they can be easier to install and put in a dedicated space or outdoors.
I sell and install this equipment, so I'm not going to say brands here. but a couple of clicks can get you to options. system design gets easier when you have 180 degree water available all the time, rather than having to design a system to work with varying water temperatures that are present in storage based systems.

hope that helps.

Kind of agreed here. The biggest part of decisions like this would likely come down to situational & personal preferences & priorities. But yes, there are lots of options.

Myself, I would prefer the overall efficiency gains from lower all around supply temps. The gains are usually spread through the entire system. But yes, maybe at the cost of a bit more complexity in the system. In my case (a mish mash of a retrofitted boiler & system), varying or lower supply temps gets compensated for quite simply by the zones running for longer periods of time to satisfy the room thermostat. Heating DHW gets trickier over a wide supply temp range if you want to maintain storage stratification - the simple tactic there is more heat exchanger & less supply flow through it.

 

[brenndatomu]

another option is a boiler that doesn't need external buffer tanks.

I thought a storage system was creme de la creme...?

 

[maple1]

I thought a storage system was creme de la creme...?

IMO it is, as far as getting the most BTUs out of your wood & into your living space as possible goes.

Some might consider giving up some BTU efficiencies for something else like an easier or more practical for them install.

 

[peakbagger]

I thought a storage system was creme de la creme...?

A cord word boiler is going to need either internal or external buffer tanks to burn efficiently. If someone does not want storage and wants an efficient device then they need to go to pellet boiler.

 

[maple1]

Often times cost of fuel can outweigh efficiency gains.

 

[leon]

If you want simplicity for your fathers home; a gravity hot water heating system is the way to wander into this.
You can use reclaimed hot water radiators or baseboard(which I hate) or new steel or cast iron hot water radiators.
The systems entire thermal mass and storage is in all the radiators, riser pipe, horizontal feed pipes and the return pipes to the boiler sump.

A top fed gravity hot water heating system does not require a bladder pressure tank as it is an atmospheric system using an open to air hot water storage tank in the attic.

A top fed gravity hot water system does not require circulators, bleeding of air bubbles or having to worry about an air locked circulator.

The heat in the home is delivered slowly and evenly with no cold spots once the water is heated to 170 degrees which will allow the water to rise naturally and then fall back into the boiler sump to be heated again.

 

[Karl_northwind]

I thought a storage system was creme de la creme...?

It can be a little better in the shoulder seasons. if you have a big heat load and are willing to burn batch load in the shoulder seasons, I've had great experiences with the heatmaster gasifier boilers. I'm going to say the brand here, because they are not like the euro gasifiers that I spent years installing and fixing. they have 200+ gallons of water internally, have variable firing rates like the froelings. The new 2020 models have Lambda 02 controls for better emissions and efficiency, and they're capable of supplying 180F water all the time, making installation and design work easier.

If you're doing your own install and time is no factor or you are paying someone to install and money is no factor, then storage is great.
But if you need to keep the boiler away from other structures and or don't want to build a whole boiler shed, and need real horsepower for your heating needs (100-200,000btu/h) they kick the pants off anything else I've ever installed. they'll burn bigger and wetter wood than the euro gasifiers, and do it cleanly and with a minimum of hassle.
yes a tiny euro gasifier with tiny dry wood may save you a bit of wood, but don't pretend that it's anything like the best for many, many people.

 

[Karl_northwind]

It can be a little better in the shoulder seasons. if you have a big heat load and are willing to burn batch load in the shoulder seasons, I've had great experiences with the heatmaster gasifier boilers. I'm going to say the brand here, because they are not like the euro gasifiers that I spent years installing and fixing. they have 200+ gallons of water internally, have variable firing rates like the froelings. The new 2020 models have Lambda 02 controls for better emissions and efficiency, and they're capable of supplying 180F water all the time, making installation and design work easier.

If you're doing your own install and time is no factor or you are paying someone to install and money is no factor, then storage is great.
But if you need to keep the boiler away from other structures and or don't want to build a whole boiler shed, and need real horsepower for your heating needs (100-200,000btu/h) they kick the pants off anything else I've ever installed. they'll burn bigger and wetter wood than the euro gasifiers, and do it cleanly and with a minimum of hassle.
yes a tiny euro gasifier with tiny dry wood may save you a bit of wood, but don't pretend that it's anything like the best for many, many people.

edit: the frustrating tone was not directed at you, but at the people who make bold blanket statements about what is the best. in this case, I'll say that this boiler has internal buffer tanks, therefore meeting the criteria "to burn efficiently"

If you want to be educated on what makes them tick, not my video, but another dealer, and there are 3 parts.

 

[brenndatomu]

If you want to be educated on what makes them tick, not my video, but another dealer, and there are 3 parts.

Only found 2?

 

[Karl_northwind]

#1


#2



#3



If I can figure out how to upload it, I'll post my own video of one of the first of this model running at my place. SN #8.

 

[E Yoder]

The 4000 or 7000? I'm running an early G7000. The 02 sensor definitely helps modulate. I need to cut some pine to alternate with the oak I've got, I think it should open up the secondary air to compensate.

 

[Karl_northwind]

The 4000 or 7000? I'm running an early G7000. The 02 sensor definitely helps modulate. I need to cut some pine to alternate with the oak I've got, I think it should open up the secondary air to compensate.

I have SN#8 of the G-7000. I assume with oak if you're not loading it up full, you probably never need more than the base 10% lower air. your upper damper is probably only opening to 70% (factory setting), and so you're not needing the lower air. fill it up with dry pine on top of a good coal bed and watch it roar!
I had a little visible smoke and I set the o2 to 7% from 6% and that cleaned it up. I love the adjustability.

 

[E Yoder]

I've seen thf bottom air open up wider just a few times. Typically with a deep coal bed like you described. It's pretty cool to see.

 

[Medic21]

Another option is the only other outdoor gasification boiler I’d consider and that’s the Crown Royal Pristine. I’m running one of their Multi Pass and live it.

One of the two is UL rated for indoor install. Cant remember which though.

 

[Karl_northwind]

Another option is the only other outdoor gasification boiler I’d consider and that’s the Crown Royal Pristine. I’m running one of their Multi Pass and live it.

One of the two is UL rated for indoor install. Cant remember which though.

That's the heatmaster G series. It's a true gasification boiler and more sophisticated than the crown.