Clearances, who needs stinking clearances?

[begreen]

Caught this on the Woodstock blog. They sent a crew down to the Navajo nation to install some beta stoves. This picture from one replacement installation for a box stove shows why clearances are so important. These folks thought they had a shield so they could cut clearances. When the shield was removed the truth came out. These folks are very lucky, the folks at Woodstock may have saved this family's lives. (Yes, the flue setup is not pretty either.)
http://blog.woodstove.com/2017/02/not-just-another-day.html

 

[lhuffhines]

That is Scary. as the Manufacturer of the stove they had, we would could have been blamed for an accident had one occured. just looking at it, i can tell the installation instructions and clearance to combustibles information (attached to model plate on the stove) were not followed. That information is not a recommendation. it is a requirement that we put on the stove that has been developed during the product testing and certification phases. we operate a booth with almost 100 data points to test the temperatures on the floor, walls and ceiling.

 

[bholler]

That is Scary. as the Manufacturer of the stove they had, we would could have been blamed for an accident had one occured. just looking at it, i can tell the installation instructions and clearance to combustibles information (attached to model plate on the stove) were not followed. That information is not a recommendation. it is a requirement that we put on the stove that has been developed during the product testing and certification phases. we operate a booth with almost 100 data points to test the temperatures on the floor, walls and ceiling.

I would like to know how you in good concience make and sell those stoves to customers yes this one was clearly a very bad install. But the stoves themselves have such poor fit and casting quality they are dangerous even when installed to specs

 

[lhuffhines]

that design has been sold for many many year, long before I was even born (im 40). It has not changed except recently where the tops have been sealed, the front plate has changed and it now has a single rate air inlet and flue.

It is intended as a stove for use in workshops, garages and cabins. Not primary living spaces.

 

[bholler]

that design has been sold for many many year, long before I was even born (im 40). It has not changed except recently where the tops have been sealed, the front plate has changed and it now has a single rate air inlet and flue.

It is intended as a stove for use in workshops, garages and cabins. Not primary living spaces.

And where does it say it is not meant to be used in a primary living space? Why is it better to use it in a garage (which is not even allowed in many places) or a shop wich may be attached to a house? Why a cabin people still sleep there and cabin stoves get run hard to get the space up to temperature from cold.

 

[bholler]

that design has been sold for many many year, long before I was even born (im 40). It has not changed except recently where the tops have been sealed, the front plate has changed and it now has a single rate air inlet and flue.

It is intended as a stove for use in workshops, garages and cabins. Not primary living spaces.

I am sorry to dump on you. I know you didnt design the stove. But you are representing the company that sells it. And still sells barrel stove kits and heat reclaimers and many other products that have some serious safety issues.

 

[lhuffhines]

bholler, I didnt join this forum to get dumped on that is for sure. I came here to do my best at offering support and participate in conversation. I didnt design them but I do understand your positioning and concern.

Heat reclaimers are on their way out. they are not to be used with EPA stoves. yes I know they cool the exhaust. but blaming them is not a substitute for proper maintenance of a flue. Barrel kits still have a strong demand. it amazes constantly on them. Companies sell Knives, guns, mowers, propane heaters, etc. and yes there are other items where if safety is not followed, they can be unsafe.

 

[bholler]

bholler, I didnt join this forum to get dumped on that is for sure. I came here to do my best at offering support and participate in conversation. I didnt design them but I do understand your positioning and concern.

And I know that and appreciate you doing that so I will not dwell on this issue. It is just as a pro who's job it is to make people's setups as safe as possible it is very frustrating when there is a company out there selling products that do the exact opposite.

I am glad heat reclaimers are on their way out but they should not be used on any wood stove epa or not. They are simply creosote factories. I maintain chimneys every day and I can tell you that the ones that have heat recaimers on are a complete mess every time. They are a horrible product that makes a wood stove much more dangerous to use.

As far as barrel stoves go do you think they are a safe solution to heating a house? I don't care how much demand there is if they are unsafe you should not be selling them.

I know there are lots of products that have inherent safety issues. And wood stoves are without a doubt one of those things. But many of the products you company sells needlessly increase that risk.

 

[lhuffhines]

Barrel stoves are not for heating a house. since the EPA change, they are considered Camp stoves at this point. we are in process of changing marketing. Manuals and cartons reflect this. that said, People will do what they want and inherently will install in their house.

 

[bholler]

Barrel stoves are not for heating a house. since the EPA change, they are considered Camp stoves at this point. we are in process of changing marketing. Manuals and cartons reflect this. that said, People will do what they want and inherently will install in their house.

I just read the manual and it does not say anything about not installing a barrel stove or boxwood stove in a house unless it was recently added. Just not a mobile home. So do you think a barrel stove is a safe heating solution for a home? I would like to know what exactly a camp stove would be used for? Are you saying it is meant to be used in a cabin? If so why are the requirements for that any different than a house?

 

[Squirrely]

bholler, I didnt join this forum to get dumped on that is for sure. I came here to do my best at offering support and participate in conversation. I didnt design them but I do understand your positioning and concern.

Don't sweat it... holler dumps on everyone.

Wood stoves are similar to firearms in that most of the potential danger is in the user rather than in what they're using. Years ago everyone used stoves similar to the one removed from that house because that's all there was. In the 70's I used an old $50 stove with eisenglass windows for over a decade to heat our house, because that's all we could afford at the time. It worked just fine and provided us with many years of comfort.

Greg

 

[bholler]

Wood stoves are similar to firearms in that most of the potential danger is in the user rather than in what they're using.

Yes but if a gun had a flaw that made it unable to be controlled or made it randomly misfire don't you think it would be pulled from the market?

 

[bholler]

Don't sweat it... holler dumps on everyone.

Only those with no regard for the safety of others. Which to be fair lhuffhines just works for a company and I dont mean to blame him for all of the issues I have with ussc products. It is just that he is representing that company.

But why dont you ask him his thoughts on people modifying their stoves from their intended design.

 

[lhuffhines]

But why dont you ask him his thoughts on people modifying their stoves from their intended design.

Modifying them from intended design can result in a voided warranty. just as it can for most any appliance or vehicle. (boiler plate answer from any MFG)

but there will be many who will do it. for example, when we had to remove some air intakes on some items to allow for tighter intake control, we had many bypass this change themselves. Users will remove a clogged CAT from their stove and just never replace it because they are expensive and the stove still heats their home without that device.

Lifting a truck suspension, Exhaust modifications, tuners etc... there will always be someone who will defeat a safety device as well. I personally HATE the extremely touchy seat safety on my mower. I also hate having to push a button to back up when turning to keep the blades engaged.


Personally, i have done it for products outside this realm to allow them to "perform" better than the designer may have intended them. it becomes use at your own risk then.

 

[bholler]

Modifying them from intended design can result in a voided warranty. just as it can for most any appliance or vehicle. (boiler plate answer from any MFG)

but there will be many who will do it. for example, when we had to remove some air intakes on some items to allow for tighter intake control, we had many bypass this change themselves. Users will remove a clogged CAT from their stove and just never replace it because they are expensive and the stove still heats their home without that device.

Lifting a truck suspension, Exhaust modifications, tuners etc... there will always be someone who will defeat a safety device as well. I personally HATE the extremely touchy seat safety on my mower. I also hate having to push a button to back up when turning to keep the blades engaged.


Personally, i have done it for products outside this realm to allow them to "perform" better than the designer may have intended them. it becomes use at your own risk then.

Yes and I know people do it. But coming on a public forum and telling everyone how to modify their stove and how great and safe it is is irresponsible

 

[lhuffhines]

Yes and I know people do it. But coming on a public forum and telling everyone how to modify their stove and how great and safe it is is irresponsible

Agreed. where did I tell someone how to modify their stove?

 

[bholler]

Agreed. where did I tell someone how to modify their stove?

You did not at all I did not mean to imply that.

 

[Squirrely]

Personally, i have done it for products outside this realm to allow them to "perform" better than the designer may have intended them. it becomes use at your own risk then.

That's the way it's always been... freely chosen assumed risk.

Greg

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Barrel stoves are not for heating a house. since the EPA change, they are considered Camp stoves at this point. we are in process of changing marketing. Manuals and cartons reflect this. that said, People will do what they want and inherently will install in their house.

Yeah, when I was 18 and inexperienced in the finer art of wood-burning, my roommates and I purchased one of those barrel stove kits. We went totally deluxe and choose the over-under double barrel because we lived in a huge, drafty farmhouse insulated with crumpled newspapers from the 1917 or so. I think the stove kit cost $29.95 or so. After scrounging up two 55-gallon drums, we cut a hole in the living room ceiling and the single wall pipe went through an upstairs closet and straight out the roof. Boy, that thing could really torch on cold nights, we would get it glowing red! I'm still amazed we never burned down that big tinder-box house. But it went through the fire wood like crazy and required hourly stoking. Fortunately, one of us had an old truck and we cut our own wood. I remember a few mornings waking up at 6am and reaching for my glass of water on the nightstand only to find it frozen solid!

I guess we learned the hard way, those stoves were only for camping. We thought they were whole-house heaters.

 

[electrathon]

Two of the houses I grew up in (in Alaska) were heated partially by a barrel stove.

I don't know what a camp heater is either.

 

[begreen]

So stove pros, got any pics or stories of issues where clearances were cheated or ignored?

 

[Sprinter]

The only posts from bhollar I've seen in my five years here have addressed nothing but safety issues based on what he deals with in his professional life. I have nothing but respect for his experience and his willingness to address safety issues when he sees them, even when they are not liked by those who choose to trade safety issues for convenience and profit. Bholler is a valuable resource here mostly addressing safety issues and proper installations. There are others here with the same concerns including me, but as he works in a field where safety and quality work is paramount for the success of his professional work, I'd rather listen to him (and the others) than those who minimize safety issues.

When I'm confronted by a choice between a safety and customer oriented professional and a seller that seems more concerned about the profit than the customer, I'll go with the safety viewpoint every time. I see this in every business, it seems to be more problematic in the service industries for some reason, but that's more from my many years of living a skeptical life...

I understand the "due diligence" part of life, I always use it, but pros undeniably have a responsibility to their customers, especially if they want to stay in business is this information world.

BTW, I don't even know the guy

 

[Sprinter]

I should probably add that a careful installation is at least as important as the manufacturing quality! I watched my installer very carefully and he did fine, but I wouldn't have known that if not for what I learned here at the time...

In my case, it helped that we both were firefighters and knew the score, but you gotta be careful.

 

[Sprinter]

It is intended as a stove for use in workshops, garages and cabins. Not primary living spaces.

My goodness. I've seen a few such stoves. I wouldn't even dream of setting a match to any of them. If it's not safe for a home, it's not safe for a shop, IMO of course. Also, cabins are definitely a "living space". I've been camping with my wife, three children and a dog in a cabin and also a large hunting tent with a stove. Are you saying that this is not a living space with my family in it? People actually live in those kind of spaces.

As an aside, I've never responded to a properly installed stove fire, but we see total structure damage from crap stoves and crap installs. Maybe that explains my three posts that may seem a bit harsh.

 

[velvetfoot]

Those Woodstock stoves are pretty.