Complaint Harman and Dealers of

[coldinnj]

For those considering purchasing Harman Stoves:
You may find my post of some interest.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/4690/
Not to say this is true of ALL Harman dealers and in advance I wish to make a point of saying I' msure there are some very good, honest, knowledgeable and caring ones out there. Unfortunately this speaks of what experience we have had.
There is more information availible if any are interested.
I am not in a habit of posting flames nor negative reviews on thge internet, however when a company goes to the lengths this one has it indicates to me a sincere disregard for the safety, welfare and efforts of users of their products.
Remember this is not in reference to an old, discontinued product line. The stove in question is still currently being sold new for about $3000 on up.

 

[MrGriz]

Cold, where did you buy your stove? I suspect you either purchased it used or over the internet. Since you seem reluctant to answer this question, I can guess.

I agree that your perceived lack of assistance from the dealers in you area and the manufacturer can be frusterating. But put yourself in their shoes for a minute. You're saying that the local dealer(s) was not good enough to purchase your stove from, but now they are good enough to help you out of a jam. How would you like to hear that as a dealer. As HB said, you are now asking them to take on responsibility with no reward.

I could have saved a few hundred dollars ordering my new insert and liner over the internet. I opted to pay a bit more in order to buy it locally and install it myself. I did this because I wanted to know that there would be someone there to answer my questions along the way.

If you did purchase your stove from a dealer and they have turned their back on you, I agree you have a right to be steamed.

In the mean time, hopefully you can find some good advice from those here. They are usually willing to lend a hand out of kindness. Just remember much of the free advice you are gaining from this forum comes from dealers; don't bite the hand that might just feed you.

 

[coldinnj]

I can appreciate your view. It is good points however in response please read the reply I posted to in the other thread.
as to: "Since you seem reluctant to answer this question, I can guess. "
I am not reluctant to answer the question! No one asked. As posted on the link I stated that the stove was bought from a dealerthat is trying hard to be helpful but does not have the knowledge.
As to: "the local dealer(s) was not good enough to purchase your stove from, but now they are good enough to help you out of a jam. How would you like to hear that as a dealer. As HB said, you are now asking them to take on responsibility with no reward."
Originally I was intersted in purchasing it from a local dealer. I found them unhelpful, unknowledgable etc. that is why I purchased elsewhere. Not over the internet but semi local. Unfortunately I still thought the manufacturere would back their product despite poor dealership methods.
As posted eleswhere I do not expect anything for free. never did.

If you did purchase your stove from a dealer and they have turned their back on you, I agree you have a right to be steamed.
As stated above I attempted this.

Just remember much of the free advice you are gaining from this forum comes from dealers; don’t bite the hand that might just feed you.
I also willingly give advice out here and elsewher. I hope that instead of dealers taking offense to this post they take it as what it is:
CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISISM. I would welcome any customer giving me feedback on my employees and or product, service thereof. A complaint is an opportunity to better your company, build loyal customers and grow your business. I bite no hands
Again I do appreciate your view.

 

[webbie]

Such a simple question - I am amazed that the factory or rep was not able to answer in a consise fashion.

Is your stove up and running in the mean while, or are you dead in the water?

 

[MrGriz]

I didn't mean to come down on you or sound too harsh, I hope it wasn't taken that way. I posted this reply before I read your last post in the other thread. I just see the dealers here taking the time to help and many times getting slammed in an indirect way for it. The truth is the dealers that are here on the board are nothing like the ones that give poor service out in the field; they are definitely a cut above.

In today's day and age, customer service is the one thing that sets companies apart from each other. With price competition as out of control as it has gotten in many fields, it's the service that makes the difference. You are correct, constructive criticism is valuable in pointing out ways to improve and build business.

I hope you can find a solution to your problem, either locally or right here!

 

[coldinnj]

No, not up and running.
I am still dead in the water.
Working on figuring it out the best way I can.

 

[webbie]

Cold, email this fellow New Jersean.....

[email protected]

Ken Rajesky...... he is a Harman Rep - not for your territory, but he is prob the best tech guy in the US. Tell him I sent you........and mention NJ. I think he is a sport fan of N. Jersey teams. (he'll probably do anything for a giants ticket).

 

[pelletheat]

Where are you located in Jersey? You should try calling a Harman dealer in eastern PA, they may be able to answer your question regarding the coal stove. Coal stoves are probably not big sellers in Jersey. How was this non dealer of Harman's able to sell this stove to you? That seems to be the first problem, they as a retailer should be able to contact the manufacturer to get any information that's needed or did they obtain this stove illegally.

 

[stovemanken]

Not to get in the middle of this, but it looks like I will anyway:

Page 2 of the Magnafire Insert manual, Section D says, and I quote, "The next step in installation, should you chose to, is installation of the direct connect flue pipe . . . Please note the words "if you choose to" Then note that the paragraph continues: "If you are not installing the direct connect kit, proceed to section 6 of these instructions."

Section 6 on page 3 gives you instructions for the assembling and mounting the surround (or wing) and Section 7 tells you to pack fiberglass between the wing and the front of the fireplace to seal it.

What this is saying, perhaps not too clearly, is that this insert does not need any type of pipe, collar or adapter at all! Might be a nice idea, but it is not required, if sections 6 and 7 are followed.

The comment "rely on the draft" is exactly what this insert was designed to do. May not seem right, but that's what the manual says. As the inspectors say: PMI "Per Manufacturers Instructions."

SMK

 

[coldinnj]

No! Nothing illeagal! I have no part in illeagal activities (except a tendency to drive over the speed limit now and then). The unit was barely used. Very slightly used. Almost new. Looks like only a couple of burns. The dealer does not handle Harmans and has tried to be helpful in seeking the information.
I have tried dealers in multiple states.

 

[pelletheat]

First, I know very little about coal stoves. But you may want to try posting your question over on this coal forum...Lots of coal burners over there.

http://www.nepadigital.com/bb/index.php

 

[coldinnj]

I read that too Stovemanken.
It may be PMI... but it's my life and more importatnly the life of those I love that are at risk if things are not done correctly. Perhaps now you see my concern for the way Harman looks at this.
Is the stove that well designed that you do not need a liner, collar etc?
Gee, lets carry it further. I have a very old house with lots of air leaks from doors, windows, outlets etc. I could just leave the unit in the fireplace without the surround, and trust that the natural draft would carry the CO and other products of combustion safely away. ( that was a vain attempt at levity).

 

[BrotherBart]

Ok. I am a little lost here. The manual says nothing about sealant but if you are uncomfortable with the way it fits without it, why not just put furnace cement around the thing and get on with it?

I don't know what you expect a dealerto tell you about an installation they are not performing. The manual is clear. Anything else is a judgement call. For a self install, that judgement would be yours. Tighter connections in excess of the recommendation are better.

BTW: The first section of pipe "just rests" in the flue collar of most stoves on the market. Including the two in this house. On one four feet of steel pipe and the elbow into the thimble hold it just fine. On the other 21 feet of double wall liner sitting on top of it ain't gonna let it go anywhere.

 

[HarryBack]

*sigh*

Why not liner the chimney, screw and seal the liner to the guide tab, make a blockoff plate and set it high, just below the damper, and go with it?

 

[webbie]

The fact is that coal gas leakage is just as likely to happen out the door and air control - In other words, super-tight joints are not what is keeping the gases up the chimney, draft is!

Some good recommendations here - some of this is "in the field" stuff. I understand your concern given the danger of coal gas, but multiple CO detectors might be the best way of avoiding that problem.

If you really want a mechanical connection, here are two possibilities. One is that you can attach a piece of metal strapping to the inside of the pipe and then pull it down inside the unit and attach it somewhere into a single wall area of the stove(drill and tap or self-tapper, or through bolt) - the second is to make or buy a small L bracket and screw it to the top of the unit near the flue opening, and then screw it to the pipe outside (if you have room).

The fact is that none of these units and liners are designed for "DIY" installation - meaning that the average person cannot sling around that much weight, nor line a chimney. Not that it can't be done....but keep in mind that the folks here who put their own units in also sometimes build their own houses or own metal fab businesses, etc. etc. - not your average DIY'er.

Good or bad, there are very few stove companies who are setup to deal with the end users. In this industry, this is the job of the reseller, chimney sweep or installer - or, Hearth.com

 

[stoveguy2esw]

im only inserting myself into this because i am making a suggestion, have you contacted any stovepipe manufacturers? i know simpson duravent has knowledgable technicians in their service department because when i have customers contact my service department with chimney related questions that i do not have a certain correct answer for i refer them to simpson just to back check me in case im wrong about an application using their product (path to true knowledge is knowing when you dont know) reason im bringing this up is harmon likely does not provide the liner connector which mates between the collar on the stove and the liner for the chimney. so, contacting the manufacturer of this component may bring you the answer you need. as for one other footnote , i noticed mention in one of the posts in this thread about a direct dump installation, where the stove is placed in the hearth and the cover plate for the fireplace opening is sealed instead of a direct connect. i personally would try to avoid that installation if possible. the direct dump (or slammer) may not allow for proper vent velocity (sluggish draw) and is difficult to get optimal burn air unless the chimney has exceptional standby draw. i will not get into the debate over the dealers or manufacturers service as i do work for a stove manufacturer (england's stove works) , as their customer service manager, and i have stated in every forum that i post in that i will not put down any stove manufacturer in a public forum. the suggestion i saw in this thread to contact the rep in new jersey was good advise i would contact him and see what he has to say, looking at the post i would expect he would be able to give you a solid answer based on the recommendation that the sender gave of him. anyway, i hope you are able to find the answers you are seeking , and if i may be of service , let me know and i will try to figure out what you need to get this project done. i'll need a little help though because i am not really familiar with the product , but i know the basics pretty well.

mike esw

 

[BrotherBart]

I can't resist Mike. Ya walked right into this one. I was going to call tomorrow. I have the same question this guy has about the 30-NCL. There are no holes in the stove collar to secure the pipe. Should I drill the collar and put sheet metal screws into the pipe? I am pretty close to doing it. Especially since I have a 45 coming off the stove into the liner.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

hey bb,
can be done that way if you are really looking to anchor it if it fits loose. also , if you check out simpson duravent , they have a "stovetop adapter" which adapts to fit snugly if the flue collar is slightly less than 6" and doesnt seem to mate tight. i myself used standard 6" single wall with my catalytic 24-ac woodstove and simply sealed the connection with 550 degree silicone. held just fine (of course i pulled it down to clean the pipes at least once or twice a season (im kinda anal about that in my occupation having a flue fire would NOT look good lol) as for the harmon , im not exactly sure what his issue is, didnt get a good feel for it. im assuming that its a similar setup to ours in which case the holes and screws or even the silicone solution would probably work just fine , my question for him is exactly what is the issue , is it that the collar and pipe are not physically secured? or does the connection not fit tight. hey , he can call me too if he wishes i'll try to help , probably can too, i just need to know exactly what he is asking and exactly what he has to work with.anyway , if you are going to call for me tomorrow , i do not get in until 10 am , getting a late start this week. hope to chat with ya soon, by the way i got a copy of that e mail you sent to my company , i posted it in our break room for the guys on the line to see. its good for them to get positive feedback from customers too , they are a great bunch and really work hard on our products. pure pro's i'd stack em up against anybody for quality work. but even pro's need a little pick me up and your letter and postings were a great pick me up for them. i appreciate it greatly.

give me a shout any time if ya wanna talk,

mike esw

 

[elkimmeg]

the silicone solution would probably work just fine

Mike I do not know of any silicone that will withstand the heat at the flue collar? You are not suggesting 600 degree RTV are You?
The heat range requires 1200 plus degrees gasket cement of stove/ refacctory cemnet is the proper product.
But if you know of a silicone that can withstand that temp please educate us.

Mike can you PM me your e-mail contact I want to discuss a few things


BB I would drill a couple holes and attach sheetmetal screws.


Mike another topic: If I did in the codes enough I think I can find language requiring them ( screws)

 

[stoveguy2esw]

email is [email protected], couldnt figure out the "pm"

 

[stovemanken]

Are we getting anywhere on this?

1) Harman does not require ANY connector if the unit is installed in a chimney that has been swept and inspected by a qualified person. Installation and Operators Manual, p.2 Paragraph C.
2) What would be the difference between this insert and having an open fire in the fireplace, fuelled by either wood or coal? A properly designed and built chimney system has proven safe for many hundreds of years.
3) Harman DOES make a connector, consisting of two pieces, p/n 3-40-2727, MSRP $168.99 and the Direct Connector Base and Rod, p/n 1-00-01013 MSRP $54.86.
4) The insert-to-stove connector is not required to be sealed, as there is always the possibility that the insert may need to be slid out for some reason (not too easy with a 500 pound stove).
5) If this kit is used, the damper/chimney area-to-pipe area is required to be sealed with non-combustible material.
6) Regarding the "sluggish draw" question, the design of the insert is that it will draw ALL of its air through the internal damper in the stove, which can be controlled for the desired heat output. If additional air were reqiured from the room (not sealing the "wing" assembly) efficiency would fall as your nice warm and expensive room air would go out the flue, defeating the whole purpose of having an insert.

SMK

 

[coldinnj]

Well the gentleman, Ken, whom Craig recommended was extremely helpful. He answered all my questions quickly & clearly. As I stated earlier I was sure there were some out there who cared to give good honest service. This man, who had no obligation to help, did so. Thank you Craig for the referral. Thanks to Ken for the help also. And thanks to those here who tried to be of assistance.
Stoveguy: when I get my camera here I will take a picture of the Direct Connect Base (DCB) and stove top to illustrate what I mean. I have decided that I am going to make a gasket of some sort to lay on top of the stove between the stove top and the DCB. It will not seal tightly as there is no way without modification to attach the DCB down tight to the stove top. However it will fill the voids and make it a little tighter.
It seems that although the PMI seems to feel that a liner or any "exhaust" pipe is optional. Ken and the predominance of those in the field feel a direct liner from stove to top of chimney is what should be done. I was trying to avoid this. Cost of 30' run of SS flex being a deterrent. As this is being done as a test. I am having a shorter length of the SS liner made up. I will connect it directly to the DCB. Place my gasket under the DCB. Run the SS liner approx. 6' up till it is 12" inside my first clay flue liner. Insulate around liner. Insulate at damper. Not sure if I should insulate around surround shroud or leave open completely. Different opinions on that.
As to the Topic of this thread. I hope Harman and dealers alike take heed of it. One should not have to be so tenacious in order to get some customer service.
Unfortunately too many consumers have been convinced that service ends either after the sale or at latest at the end of the warranty period. Well there is a lot of money to be made with Warranties, Extended warranties etc. More can be made from good customer service and the eventual growing of same company offering such. Ken and some others have shown a willingness to “go the extra mile”.

 

[elkimmeg]

What are you going to insulate around the liner and use for the damper plate? surely it is not common fiberglass insulation I hope?
common fiber glass insulation is not listed for that application and therefore cannot be used Also you manual points out the importance of the suround seal
Please re read you manual for proper instalation In all your post you made no mention of this installation being permitted? 36" ro combustiables is a huge margine to factor in
At no point has it been determined if a direct connection satisfies the NFPA 211 cross-sectional codes or that your chimney is NFPA compliant to begin with.

Weigh this out a bi-product of coal burning is sulfuric acid which eats away clay and masonry. If you corss-sectionare area is marginal the moistuer in your clay liner will condensate and produce sulfuric acid. It will heat up enought to condensate but not enough to dry off the condensate, before it forms the acid. Having a 316 ti or 320 ti liner may end up cheap insurance for what can happen in short time I'm telling you this because you seem like the type of person that would want to get things right the first time. If I were your inspector I would not approve common fiberglass for damper block off or any stuffing around the flue IT is not listed for that purpose. I also would look very closely are clearances and your Cross-sectional issues.
Not just for code applications, but for you and your famillies personal safety. Finally I inspected a stove installed ina chimney where the sulfuric acid and cross sectional area was not met.
The chimney was 8 years old when I opened up the sah dump door the remains of that chimney liner took 5 5gallon buckets out before I could even look up to see what was left
This after 3 years of burning in that chimney

 

[stovemanken]

Elk,
Please advise what IS an approved insulation (packing) for use around the pipe in an insert? Many installers use fibergalss because they don't know what else to use.
SMK

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Ceramic fiber blanket sold specificly for this industry....